ASTI ballot

markodaly wrote: »

If only the ASTI and others took the same position things might get somewhere but I know the game. The vast majority of members of the ASTI are on a permanent contract anyway, so fighting for that for NQT is not in their own personal interest, but a pay rise sure is. Hence why they but pay before permanency, which in my own opinion is folly and to the detriment of NQT's.

You "know the game" do you?? Better than those of us who've been fighting for years for our lesser paid collegues,both for their pay and permanency?? I'm sorry but you don't even know what you're talking about!

Firstly,it was the ASTI who negotiated the Ward report, which entitles teachers to a CID [the new permanency] after just two years. And that was some achievement because in my day it took anywhere between 5-10 years to get any sort of permanency in many subjects, which meant no income during school holidays. So yes ASTI care about permanency.

Secondly, ASTI actually went out on strike in November 2016 and took a direct hit to their pockets on behalf of their lesser paid collegues and while not achieving much,did put pressure on the Govt on that issue. Also, ASTI recently voted down the current pay improvements for NQTs because it doesn't constitute pay parity. So yes ASTI members, all ASTI members young and old, do care about NQTs. In fact ASTI haven't campaigned for pay rises across the board since the strikes of 2001, almost 20 years ago. So all the evidence refutes your claim that ASTI members are more interested in their own pockets than on justice and equality and maybe you need to research more before making such ridiculous claims.

markodaly wrote: »

Civil Servants and Teachers are both public servants, are they not?
I was not intending to tar anyone with a brush but the culture no accountability, lack of real performance reviews and deep inertia are prevalent among all Public Servants, unfortunately, and especially with Civil Servants.

This obsession with "accountability" has a huge ring of "be careful what you wish for"!! Currently in teaching, it's more about the accountability of performance than actual performance. We have incidental inspections, subject inspections,whole school inspections,all very rigorous and demanding of reams of paperwork, all very distracting from the actual job of teaching but of course we must all bow to this new doctrine of "accountability."

Then you have accountability to parents, to the students themselves and to school management, the latter who sit in on new teachers' classes. While you might think that's great,I see it as counter productive as the new teacher is way more concerned with ticking the right box in front of the principal than on effectively teaching the class. And of course there is the accountability of the exam results. Fine,you're not fired if your results aren't up to scratch, but you're certainly under pressure which means you're now more interested in the performance of your class as a whole than about getting each student in it to perform to his /her individual best. But then is "performance" not the holy grail of this "accountability" culture? And how exactly do you measure "performance"?

So I find I have to scoff at that typical wide sweeping accusation against the public sector emboldened above. As long as the right boxes are ticked is the public kept happy? And is that all that matters?

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have consistently voted for the interests of younger members despite rarely seeing them at school union meetings. Have done my time as an activist. They or you have the numbers on your own to force the issue. Younger members have enough voting strength to carry a strike if they wanted to.
I want a long bitter strike. Need to clear the air. Sort out pay inequality. Sort out bull**** paperwork. I just don't trust primary teachers or TUI.

I’ll see you at convention then.

Trekky77 wrote: »

Fair question. When I started out teaching I was in a dual union school, I joined ASTI. I had my contract cancelled due to not being qualified and I had no work for my final dip year (Desipite literally hundreds having contracts whilst doing their dip). The union would not help me at all when it came to this issue. So I left ASTI. I joined TUI and now I'm in a solely TUI school. I've had no personal grievances since.

If they ASTI didn't help you there was probably a reason for it tbh.

Mardy Bum wrote: »

hopefully recruitment will improve.

Or perhaps it would be better if it didn't....might force the powers that be to stop ****ting on the workforce.

Sir123 wrote: »

Equalisation is still quite a bit off in today's terms Mardy Bum. Remember, that 39k figure after allowances was during recessionary times, post 2009/2010 pay cut etc. Pension levy also.

So in actually terms, they are not better off. They are on an inferior pension also, career average and can't retire until 70. Many post 2013 teachers are paying into AVCs as they really need to in order to get some bit of a pension at retirement. Doesn't sound too good to me now compared to pre 2011 to be honest.

Regarding your comment on recruitment, it won't improve anytime soon guaranteed. Pay is relatively low and doesn't increase that drastically in the early years, unlike many private sector jobs that do. Many graduates are also probably turned off by terms and conditions and by the fact that the DES are promoting the profession on Facebook and the radio, hence asserting some sort of desperation regarding the profession.

In terms of a mortgage they are better off now. They can avail of over 18k more if you compare point 1 on the salary scale in 2011 with now. Provided they have a deposit which is another thing.

Pension isn't as good but this is a wider issue for the whole public service. I'm not saying everything is perfect, far from it in fact i.e new recruits will complete a more expensive course which have to be paid for by someone,

I think Mardy Bum is just trying to take a glass half full approach.

Which in most aspects of life is the best approach but NEVER when it comes to workers rights and conditions. Because that's the very thing that suits the employer. Throw a few crumbs at a disgruntled workforce, use clever divide and conquer strategies and you keep enough of them just happy enough to give up the fight.

Very dangerous. Especially when the employer is the Govt and it's typical of the Irish to take a "shur it could be worse" attitude. The attitude to take is that it couldn't be feckin worse :mad: That its so bad its downright poxy and makes the blood boil.:mad::mad: That is the only way to win a fight and achieve real results. Teachers have always been cowed by crumbs that favour some more than others and now it looks as if the nurses are going to fall into the same trap. And then you have the private sector brigade telling us to shut up, that we have it very cushy indeed and look at them how they have it so bad. And we get all ashamed and shut right up and they don't bother fighting to improve their own conditions. And employers and Govt are laughing all the way to the bank.

It's hard to be optimistic that things will change any time soon. But one thing is certain and that is that we can't adopt this dangerous "shur it could be worse" glass half full approach.We have to keep with the glass three quarters empty,it's feckin dreadful, because actually it is dreadful and keep fighting on.

acequion wrote: »

You "know the game" do you??

I certainly do. Unfortunately many teachers cant see the wood from the trees at this stage.

Firstly,it was the ASTI who negotiated the Ward report, which entitles teachers to a CID [the new permanency] after just two years. And that was some achievement because in my day it took anywhere between 5-10 years to get any sort of permanency in many subjects, which meant no income during school holidays. So yes ASTI care about permanency.

I'll repeat, again and again, access to permanency should be the main and perhaps only game in town now.

Secondly, ASTI actually went out on strike in November 2016 and took a direct hit to their pockets on behalf of their lesser paid collegues and while not achieving much,did put pressure on the Govt on that issue.

Is this supposed to be commended? The ASTI bled members to the TUI after this debacle as far as I remember.

Also, ASTI recently voted down the current pay improvements for NQTs because it doesn't constitute pay parity.

Cutting off you nose in spite of your face perhaps. Other teaching unions did apprve HR, which is why NQT's are rare enough in the ASTI.

So yes ASTI members, all ASTI members young and old, do care about NQTs. In fact ASTI haven't campaigned for pay rises across the board since the strikes of 2001, almost 20 years ago.

You just said that teachers went on strike in 2016 for better pay.




This obsession with "accountability" has a huge ring of "be careful what you wish for"!! Currently in teaching, it's more about the accountability of performance than actual performance. We have incidental inspections, subject inspections,whole school inspections,all very rigorous and demanding of reams of paperwork, all very distracting from the actual job of teaching but of course we must all bow to this new doctrine of "accountability."

Fine,you're not fired if your results aren't up to scratch, but you're certainly under pressure which means you're now more interested in the performance of your class as a whole than about getting each student in it to perform to his /her individual best. But then is "performance" not the holy grail of this "accountability" culture? And how exactly do you measure "performance"?

There'in lies the problem. Its all window dressing as there is no accountability and unfortunately Union inertia is an issue at hand here.

So I find I have to scoff at that typical wide sweeping accusation against the public sector emboldened above. As long as the right boxes are ticked is the public kept happy? And is that all that matters?

Of course not, but the issue is accountability and when those who are accountable cannot be let go, well then there is no accountability.

acequion wrote: »

Very dangerous. Especially when the employer is the Govt and it's typical of the Irish to take a "shur it could be worse" attitude. The attitude to take is that it couldn't be feckin worse :mad: That its so bad its downright poxy and makes the blood boil.:mad::mad: That is the only way to win a fight and achieve real results. Teachers have always been cowed by crumbs that favour some more than others and now it looks as if the nurses are going to fall into the same trap. And then you have the private sector brigade telling us to shut up, that we have it very cushy indeed and look at them how they have it so bad. And we get all ashamed and shut right up and they don't bother fighting to improve their own conditions. And employers and Govt are laughing all the way to the bank.

It's hard to be optimistic that things will change any time soon. But one thing is certain and that is that we can't adopt this dangerous "shur it could be worse" glass half full approach.We have to keep with the glass three quarters empty,it's feckin dreadful, because actually it is dreadful and keep fighting on.

The manifestation of this type of attitude is, of course, is the accusation, real or other wise that teachers will always be whining and moaning about everything, no matter how much they get paid or how much time off they get, they will take the 'glass half full' approach and give out about it regardless.

Ironic as this is the attitude many in the public have, yet perhaps the glass half empty approach is wearing thin these days.

Could it be worse, of course, it could!!!
Irish teachers could be paid the same as French teachers , who have a reputation of being militant and strike ready. Yet Irish teachers are paid much more than them.

If teachers want something, they need to convey it in a clear concise and reasonable manner, that is both fair teachers, parents, the taxpayer and of course the student.

I see a lot of anger here, which may well be justified. But not once have I heard anything that talks about the students well being, or indeed any idea of reform put forward that could make the learning experience and outcome for Irish students better than we have now.

markodaly wrote: »

The manifestation of this type of attitude is, of course, is the accusation, real or other wise that teachers will always be whining and moaning about everything, no matter how much they get paid or how much time off they get, they will take the 'glass half full' approach and give out about it regardless.

Ironic as this is the attitude many in the public have, yet perhaps the glass half empty approach is wearing thin these days.

Could it be worse, of course, it could!!!
Irish teachers could be paid the same as French teachers , who have a reputation of being militant and strike ready. Yet Irish teachers are paid much more than them.

If teachers want something, they need to convey it in a clear concise and reasonable manner, that is both fair teachers, parents, the taxpayer and of course the student.

I see a lot of anger here, which may well be justified. But not once have I heard anything that talks about the students well being, or indeed any idea of reform put forward that could make the learning experience and outcome for Irish students better than we have now.

You talk such rubbish markodaly,you really do!

I'm always fascinated by people who seem to have nothing better to do than post on forums of certain worker groups to have a really good go at said group of workers for having the temerity to agitate for improvements. For not shutting up and putting up. Just what is your problem? Tax payers money perhaps? As if public servants paid no tax:rolleyes: As if public servants were scroungers and not the highly qualified, specialised group many to most are.Some people just have to have someone to hate I guess :rolleyes:

I really wouldn't have the time or the brass neck to go savaging a bunch of workers on a forum the way you do. Waste of time arguing with you,you've your mind made up anyway. The fact that you saw just one thing in my entire point on accountability ie a teacher won't be fired over exam results,says it all. Zero reference to every other point I made. You're clearly not on the side of the worker anyway.

And as for your point about France. Third level education is much cheaper over there and in many cases, free, so teachers are not starting out having spent 12K on a two years masters. And as you're at the apples and oranges, why not compare Irish teacher salaries to Germany and Holland where teachers are paid more? Despite the cost of living being lower in those countries!

No doubt my post will have you back like a mad dog on a big rant. Fine, off you go as you clearly have nothing better to be doing. But I won't be wasting my time talking to you again. It's Sunday and I spend my Sundays prepping. For fear my students might all fail and I might be sacked :eek::eek:

acequion wrote: »

I think Mardy Bum is just trying to take a glass half full approach.

.

I wasn't actually. I was lamenting the fact that teachers from 11-13 (especially 13 considering the new pension and those who were ASTI)) took a huge hit in contrast with other teachers before and after. These teachers will never be repaid for taking this hit.

What do you do with yourself anyway Mark? What line of work is so perfect that you feel you have to spread that gospel here?

Sir123 wrote: »

We are not La République markodaly. You cannot compare apples to oranges.

I agree, yet it was not I who was lamenting the lack of militancy in Irish teachers unlike those in France, it was your fellow teacher posting here.

doc_17 wrote: »

What do you do with yourself anyway Mark? What line of work is so perfect that you feel you have to spread that gospel here?

I too work in Education, as does my wife.

markodaly wrote:

I too work in Education, as does my wife.

Hmmmm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Is there a plan for brexit when project fear begins. https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0326/1038584-esri-brexit/

Oh, please! Don't talk like a little Englander Brexiter.

If/when Brexit happen there will be an economic impact and we may have to adjust and tinker here or there.

This will affect all of society, not just teachers or those that work in education like I.

evolving_doors wrote: »

Well this is a teachers forum .... so were allowed to flag issues which may affect the profession.

Of course, but do you also need to use terms like 'Project Fear' when talking about Brexit? It is straight out of the JRM playbook.

...and as you know we've been forced to put on the green jersey before... and now it's being suggested by ill informed (and those with a grá for the blueshirts) that it was the older teachers who sold out the younger ones....

Blueshirts? Again, why use such pejorative terms and then expect to be taken seriously.

..here you are berating me for being concerned. I thought that as you are also 'in education' you might be concerned...

Berating? Not at all, I am criticising your use of terms like 'Project Fear' in relation to Brexit and its impact on Ireland.

btw if there is a hard Brexit there isn't a hope in hell anyone in early childcare will be getting a pay rise. Maybe you should focus your energies on that.

What do you suggest I do? Write a strongly worded letter to Teresa May to tell her my concern's... as if you or I have any real power or say in Brexit.