ASTI ballot

Mardy Bum · 18-02-2019 2:55pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Apologies as I thought it was a level 9.

All teachers are STILL double graduates with 2 x level 8 qualifications,

It’s a fair starting wage in my opinion IF teachers starting out could get a full time job

PME is a level 9 though so you are not wrong there. Lots of graduates now have master's degree. It is two years and 180 credits unlike the old HDip/PDE.

evolving_doors · 18-02-2019 5:45pm

markodaly wrote: »

Cant be all bad.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/arts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Feducation%2Farts-graduates-earn-least-while-teachers-earn-most-survey-finds-1.3797241

Graduate Teachers earn most according to the the IT.

That's the payscale figure.

Youve been told this before but yet you trot back to your FG masters and spin machine a nd start the same auld guff all over again.

You either enjoy wallowing in this ignorant stance or else you are part of the party.

Show me all the permanent jobs on the full starting point of the scale on educationposts.ie markodaly ?

evolving_doors · 18-02-2019 5:56pm

That ASTI representative on today FM was brutal.

The last text read out ... " there's a lot of teachers who only do it for the €50 per hour sub rate"
Matt asks her is it true that the sub rate is €50.. (notice he's not addressing the other allegation by the so called texter)

Her reply "I'm not sure!"... and then leaves it at that.

Now it's fine if she doesn't know exactly, but to leave those allegations of people teaching for a bit of handy pocket money!!

These guys in head office have no fight in em.

doc22 · 18-02-2019 6:49pm

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Apologies as I thought it was a level 9.

All teachers are STILL double graduates with 2 x level 8 qualifications,

It’s a fair starting wage in my opinion IF teachers starting out could get a full time job

No they're not, students coming out with undergrads in St Pats in Thurles are qualified teachers same with all primary teachers in Mary I etc.

The survey might have a self selection bias across the board, if you were unemployed or on bad pay would you be running to fill it in

Blaizes · 18-02-2019 8:47pm

Interestingly no mention in that article of any of the 2,000 subs( figure I've heard) who haven't been paid properly since before Christmas.Guess that just wouldn't suit their agenda as it might elicit sympathy from the public, no mention either of all the part timers, small hour cids, people going from school to school with no job security, or the real challenges of the job itself. Just another lah lah land article.

km79 · 18-02-2019 8:53pm

Why would you think all teachers are Arts graduates ?
Do you not think teaching the Arts related subjects is a world away from teaching Science , Technology , Construction Studies, Home Ec?

More I’ll informed “sure anyone can be a teacher “ nonsense
After hours poster again. Should have checked first before wasting my time
Ignored

markodaly · 19-02-2019 8:58am

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's the payscale figure.

Youve been told this before but yet you trot back to your FG masters and spin machine a nd start the same auld guff all over again.

You either enjoy wallowing in this ignorant stance or else you are part of the party.

Show me all the permanent jobs on the full starting point of the scale on educationposts.ie markodaly ?

FG masters?
I have no political masters thank you very much, the fact that you have to retort with such language is a poor reflection on you, to be honest.

If you want to have a real discussion on permanency we can have that but drop the AH type insults. It's unbecoming.

markodaly · 19-02-2019 9:00am

km79 wrote: »

Why would you think all teachers are Arts graduates ?
Do you not think teaching the Arts related subjects is a world away from teaching Science , Technology , Construction Studies, Home Ec?

More I’ll informed “sure anyone can be a teacher “ nonsense
After hours poster again. Should have checked first before wasting my time
Ignored

I presume this is directed at me?
I never said all, I said most*, due to the fact that a) most teachers teaching right now did not graduate in the past 6-7 years and b) most would have done an arts degree before doing the H.Dip/PME

As I said, if there is clear data to contradict this, by all means, show me. Otherwise, perhaps take the argument on board.

*I find it interesting that my posts are often taken out of context in this way, where posters respond to this they think they read, not what is actually written.

doc_17 · 19-02-2019 5:21pm

I wonder are they including people who have completed courses in Educational Leadership or Guideance etc in the figures for graduate pay? That might explain why it’s too high? Or are they including people who do phds and then lecture?

amacca · 19-02-2019 5:29pm

markodaly wrote: »

*I find it interesting that my posts are often taken out of context in this way, where posters respond to this they think they read, not what is actually written.

Throwing stones in glasshouses are we?

In my experience you are more than capable of that yourself tbh.

The numbers who are arts graduates depends to an extent on what you/colleges classify as an arts degree, and whose definition of what constitutes an arts degree is deemed fair (if we are trying to compare things that aren't really easy to compare or break down as simplistically as you seem to want to)..... probably also depends on if you classify graduates of a teaching qualification like bachelor of education as an "arts" graduate (regardless of what subjects undertaken)...depends too if you consider someone who has studied fine art as an arts graduate...also depends on whether you consider anyone that qualified initially with an arts degree but has since become qualified in SEN or in the case of one former colleague psychology as still just an arts graduate....not to mention the many qualifications that aren't classified as BAs or MAs and indeed some that are (legacy issues as I understand it etc) and probably shouldn't be: (e.g. general science grads + many others in TCD and perhaps elsewhere get awarded a BA ...but those courses were nothing like a three year arts degree I think you might be trying to liken most teachers initial qualifications to?)

If I think about former colleagues in most recent school I was in then it certainly wasn't most either imo.....

evolving_doors · 19-02-2019 6:01pm

markodaly wrote: »

FG masters?
I have no political masters thank you very much, the fact that you have to retort with such language is a poor reflection on you, to be honest.

If you want to have a real discussion on permanency we can have that but drop the AH type insults. It's unbecoming.

Well one has to question your motives when time and again it's explained about part time sub work reality versus a payscale figure for salary...

Here's the link for educationposts.ie again in case you've forgotten.

Www.educationposts.ie

Although deflecting is very becoming of you.

So where's those permanent jobs with the approx 35k starting salary mark?... if you want to have a real discussion on permanency.

Where in the HEA 'survey' did it say it asked teachers what they were earning?

Interesting they call it a survey, but only half survey people involved. Then tag on the payscale permanent figure... don'tcha think that's interesting markodaly?

Inspector Coptoor · 19-02-2019 7:33pm

doc22 wrote: »

No they're not, students coming out with undergrads in St Pats in Thurles are qualified teachers same with all primary teachers in Mary I etc.

The survey might have a self selection bias across the board, if you were unemployed or on bad pay would you be running to fill it in

Then why do they have to do their “Dip” year?

And when they do their Dip year, are they not then double graduates?

markodaly · 20-02-2019 3:17am

evolving_doors wrote: »

if you want to have a real discussion on permanency.

I would actually.

I do think it a problem, but let's not dance around the facts of the matter either, that from the survey vast majority of teachers are in some employment, so its not all bad.

How to fix permanency, that is a multi-pronged problem. Maybe if permanency was not so permanent for bad teachers it may help but I cannot see any union agreeing to a review of teaching practices for the teachers who phone it in.

Also, the fact that a teacher on a permanent contract can go off to the middle east or become a TD, for 5 years and still have their job waiting for them is an issue. 12 months would be my preference. If a teacher wants more time out, then resign and apply again when they are ready. This is real low hanging fruit stuff, but again will be resisted even though this would free up many permanent places overnight.

Obviously the government needs to fund more permanent places as well.
https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2019/2018/1009/1002022-education-budget/

An additional 1,300 teacher and Special Needs Assistant posts to meet demographic demand.

An additional €196m in capital funding to create an additional 18,000 school places.

Is that enough? Probably not, but everyone has their hand out for more resources and cash, just look at the nurses, Gardai, GP's, Army...

If everyone got their way, an extra €2.3 Billion onto the expenses, per year. To put that in context, USC brings in total about €2.5 Billion a year.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We spend almost €11 Billion on education in this state but like health, are our outcomes that much better?

And I will be clear, I still hold the view and would support any measure by the Unions to put permanency of new teachers ahead of wage agreements, in fact, I think it should be a priority as its unfair for NQT to be waiting indefinitely on a temp contract permanent contract. Say, after 2 or 3 years, if you are working in a school on a full-time basis then you should be offered a permanent contract outright.

doc_17 · 20-02-2019 11:21am

markodaly wrote: »

I would actually.

I do think it a problem, but let's not dance around the facts of the matter either, that from the survey vast majority of teachers are in some employment, so its not all bad.

How to fix permanency, that is a multi-pronged problem. Maybe if permanency was not so permanent for bad teachers it may help but I cannot see any union agreeing to a review of teaching practices for the teachers who phone it in.

Also, the fact that a teacher on a permanent contract can go off to the middle east or become a TD, for 5 years and still have their job waiting for them is an issue. 12 months would be my preference. If a teacher wants more time out, then resign and apply again when they are ready. This is real low hanging fruit stuff, but again will be resisted even though this would free up many permanent places overnight.

Obviously the government needs to fund more permanent places as well.
https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2019/2018/1009/1002022-education-budget/

Is that enough? Probably not, but everyone has their hand out for more resources and cash, just look at the nurses, Gardai, GP's, Army...

If everyone got their way, an extra €2.3 Billion onto the expenses, per year. To put that in context, USC brings in total about €2.5 Billion a year.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We spend almost €11 Billion on education in this state but like health, are our outcomes that much better?

And I will be clear, I still hold the view and would support any measure by the Unions to put permanency of new teachers ahead of wage agreements, in fact, I think it should be a priority as its unfair for NQT to be waiting indefinitely on a temp contract permanent contract. Say, after 2 or 3 years, if you are working in a school on a full-time basis then you should be offered a permanent contract outright.

Ok, where to start with the above.

You can’t put permanency above wage agreements. What’s the point in permanency if it doesn’t pay a decent wage?

If teachers aren’t permanent then where does that leave them? What connection do they have with the school? Why should they care about it if, at the first sign of them not performing heroics, they are cast aside? Anyway, who’d replace them? The a**holes who once sat in a class when they were a teenager and think, as a result, they could do it?

The outcomes in education, primary and secondary, by almost any metric you would care to chose are outstanding and cannot and should not be compared to health.

How many teachers are there in the Dail? Not as many as there are teaching Physics or Chemistry for 3-4 hours a week and would be considered employed by yourself.

The entire study is nonsense as it includes allownnaces that were removed in 2011.

People don’t always need to compare the public sector with the private sector and one good example is the Children’s Hospital. “That cost overrun would never happen in the private sector” go the claims. They are right. In the private sector the hospital wouldn’t be built because there isn’t an economic benefit in treating sick children.

SligoBrewer · 20-02-2019 2:04pm

markodaly wrote: »

We spend almost €11 Billion on education in this state but like health, are our outcomes that much better?.

We underspend compared to our OECD and EU counterparts and we comfortably outperform compared to those who spend equally to us. We also work longer hours compared to teachers in other countries.

Irish teachers are plugging the gaps caused by poor Government spending in our education, except now you can see that teachers are stretched paper thin numerically.

evolving_doors · 20-02-2019 8:18pm

markodaly wrote: »

I would actually.

I do think it a problem, but let's not dance around the facts of the matter either, that from the survey vast majority of teachers are in some employment, so its not all bad.

How to fix permanency, that is a multi-pronged problem. Maybe if permanency was not so permanent for bad teachers it may help but I cannot see any union agreeing to a review of teaching practices for the teachers who phone it in.

Also, the fact that a teacher on a permanent contract can go off to the middle east or become a TD, for 5 years and still have their job waiting for them is an issue. 12 months would be my preference. If a teacher wants more time out, then resign and apply again when they are ready. This is real low hanging fruit stuff, but again will be resisted even though this would free up many permanent places overnight.

Obviously the government needs to fund more permanent places as well.
https://www.rte.ie/news/budget-2019/2018/1009/1002022-education-budget/

Is that enough? Probably not, but everyone has their hand out for more resources and cash, just look at the nurses, Gardai, GP's, Army...

If everyone got their way, an extra €2.3 Billion onto the expenses, per year. To put that in context, USC brings in total about €2.5 Billion a year.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

We spend almost €11 Billion on education in this state but like health, are our outcomes that much better?

And I will be clear, I still hold the view and would support any measure by the Unions to put permanency of new teachers ahead of wage agreements, in fact, I think it should be a priority as its unfair for NQT to be waiting indefinitely on a temp contract permanent contract. Say, after 2 or 3 years, if you are working in a school on a full-time basis then you should be offered a permanent contract outright.

So you'd disagree with the media (namely Irish independent an IT) reporting on the HEA 'survey' then?

SleetAndSnow · 20-02-2019 11:15pm

https://m.independent.ie/storyplus/considering-your-career-options-heres-why-you-should-think-about-teaching-37830780.html?x

Utter joke, the independent is shocking with the articles on teachers this week. It's very hard to get contracts as I see from my sister.

Why are the government on a "recruitment drive" if teachers are apperantly the "best paid"? What a joke! They are starting to contradict themselves now at this point.

markodaly · 21-02-2019 1:20am

doc_17 wrote: »

You can’t put permanency above wage agreements. What’s the point in permanency if it doesn’t pay a decent wage?

It very much depends on what you define as a decent wage. Teachers are not paid poorly with respect to other EU/OECD countries. These are the benchmarks we have to compare with.

France was mentioned earlier as a country with a history of militancy and strikes, yet graduate teaching salaries are much lower there than in Ireland.

Comparing Secondary school teachers, a French graduate teacher gets about €27,000, compared to €36,318 in Ireland.
The holy grail for teaching, Finland again pay less for graduate teachers, starting at about €32,000

Income tax on these salaries is also higher in those countries than here as well!!

http://ncee.org/what-we-do/center-on-international-education-benchmarking/top-performing-countries/finland-overview/finland-teacher-and-principal-quality/
https://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/
http://www.oecd.org/education/Education-at-a-glance-2015-France-English.pdf

Even after 15 years on the job, Ireland still pays on average more than either of those countries.

In respect to Ireland, the HEA survey is clear. Graduate teachers who secure full-time hours are among the best-paid graduates in Ireland, these are just facts from the survey. The issue, of course, is hours as many teachers don't have full-time hours. This is what I was focusing on in regards permanency.

The salary is fine as it seems that there is no shortage of would-be graduate teachers in the main. They know what the salary is from the get-go, yet are happy to go down that route. What there is a shortage of, are teachers in some subjects. That is not an indication of poor salary, it is an issue of choice and opportunities for some graduates.

A possible solution is to identify what specialties schools are struggling to recruit in and offer bonuses/top-up for these areas, like Math and Science, but only to them.

If teachers aren’t permanent then where does that leave them? What connection do they have with the school? Why should they care about it if, at the first sign of them not performing heroics, they are cast aside?

Here is the thing, I agree with you.

The outcomes in education, primary and secondary, by almost any metric you would care to chose are outstanding and cannot and should not be compared to health.

Really? Pisa results are above average for the OECD, but we are not top of the class in any of the categories, in fact, we have fallen in Science.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1206/836836-reading-maths-performance/
I would classify us are above average to good in terms of education, but not outstanding.

How many teachers are there in the Dail? Not as many as there are teaching Physics or Chemistry for 3-4 hours a week and would be considered employed by yourself.

Teaching is one of the most dominant professions of people who are elected to Dail Eireann.

This was 2011
https://www.independent.ie/au/life/family/learning/teachers-still-top-of-class-for-31st-dail-representation-26709393.html
This is 2016.
https://www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/shape-of-the-dail#/

It does not bother me in the slightest, but the facts are the facts.

The entire study is nonsense as it includes allownnaces that were removed in 2011.

I need to correct this as its a half truth. The salary now includes allowances that were available to a previous cohort of teachers.
This means a higher base salary but a lower overall salary as allowances were removed.

People don’t always need to compare the public sector with the private sector and one good example is the Children’s Hospital. “That cost overrun would never happen in the private sector” go the claims. They are right. In the private sector the hospital wouldn’t be built because there isn’t an economic benefit in treating sick children.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. However, if you want to discuss this fine. No one is denying the benefits of having a modern children's hospital, what people are angry about and justified in their anger is the lack of accountability from a cohort of Civil Servants who costed and issued contracts who by all accounts hadn't a bulls notion what they were doing. These jobsworths are still employed and happy out.

See this is something where we could have common ground. Teachers are always complaining about the Dept. of Education and the useless penpushers who run it, something I could agree with. The debacle of the children's hospital is another example of public servants in a department treating the taxpayer like fools. This is the same issue in most other departments.

Yet, instead of seeking common ground here, in regards to civil servants getting in the way providing good quality health and educational services, you go on about a rant about the private sector, something I have not even mentioned.

I think that tells us a lot where the mindset is tbh.

markodaly · 21-02-2019 1:25am

SligoBrewer wrote: »

We underspend compared to our OECD and EU counterparts and we comfortably outperform compared to those who spend equally to us. We also work longer hours compared to teachers in other countries.

We spend the same per GDP as Japan, who have better outcomes.
https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/public-spending-on-education.htm

However, I agree we need to spend more, way more on Early Childcare Education especially. I have been banging that drum for ages. Any big uptick in spending should go there first and foremost. ECT's earning €10 an hour would love half the conditions primary school teachers get. We are decades behind most of the OECD in regards to this.

judeboy101 · 21-02-2019 9:39am

markodaly wrote: »

We spend the same per GDP as Japan, who have better outcomes.
https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/public-spending-on-education.htm

However, I agree we need to spend more, way more on Early Childcare Education especially. I have been banging that drum for ages. Any big uptick in spending should go there first and foremost. ECT's earning €10 an hour would love half the conditions primary school teachers get. We are decades behind most of the OECD in regards to this.

Every country in Asia teaches the way we are being told is wrong. Grind schools, rote learning, high stakes exams. From Macau to myanmar they all do it. Meanwhile we have 400 hrs of well-being.

evolving_doors · 21-02-2019 10:28am

markodaly wrote: »

We spend the same per GDP as Japan, who have better outcomes.
https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/public-spending-on-education.htm

However, I agree we need to spend more, way more on Early Childcare Education especially. I have been banging that drum for ages. Any big uptick in spending should go there first and foremost. ECT's earning €10 an hour would love half the conditions primary school teachers get. We are decades behind most of the OECD in regards to this.

You should really speak to a Japanese person about cram schools and why their 'outcomes' are better. The govt don't need to spend much because competition is so fierce and cram schools are rife. So have we to catch up with that?

Here's a typical timetable for a Japanese high school student.

markodaly wrote: »

In respect to Ireland, the HEA survey is clear. Graduate teachers who secure full-time hours are among the best-paid graduates in Ireland, these are just facts from the survey. The issue, of course, is hours as many teachers don't have full-time hours. This is what I was focusing on in regards permanency.

Nice of you to sneak that in.
And again I'll ask...where are those full time hours on educationposts.ie??

Also , where does it say they surveyed the graduates on their own personal incomes?

BTW what page of the survey are those stats - ' among the best-paid graduates in Ireland' -
From ?

And yes child care staff are underpaid. Although whats the base requirement... Fetac Level 5? so maybe it's in line with qualifications.

evolving_doors · 21-02-2019 10:46am

markodaly wrote: »

It very much depends on what you define as a decent wage. Teachers are not paid poorly with respect to other EU/OECD countries. These are the benchmarks we have to compare with.

France was mentioned earlier as a country with a history of militancy and strikes, yet graduate teaching salaries are much lower there than in Ireland.

Comparing Secondary school teachers, a French graduate teacher gets about €27,000, compared to €36,318 in Ireland.
The holy grail for teaching, Finland again pay less for graduate teachers, starting at about €32,000

Income tax on these salaries is also higher in those countries than here as well!!

http://ncee.org/what-we-do/center-on-international-education-benchmarking/top-performing-countries/finland-overview/finland-teacher-and-principal-quality/
https://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/
http://www.oecd.org/education/Education-at-a-glance-2015-France-English.pdf

Even after 15 years on the job, Ireland still pays on average more than either of those countries.

In respect to Ireland, the HEA survey is clear. Graduate teachers who secure full-time hours are among the best-paid graduates in Ireland, these are just facts from the survey. The issue, of course, is hours as many teachers don't have full-time hours. This is what I was focusing on in regards permanency.

The salary is fine as it seems that there is no shortage of would-be graduate teachers in the main. They know what the salary is from the get-go, yet are happy to go down that route. What there is a shortage of, are teachers in some subjects. That is not an indication of poor salary, it is an issue of choice and opportunities for some graduates.

A possible solution is to identify what specialties schools are struggling to recruit in and offer bonuses/top-up for these areas, like Math and Science, but only to them.

Here is the thing, I agree with you.

Really? Pisa results are above average for the OECD, but we are not top of the class in any of the categories, in fact, we have fallen in Science.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2016/1206/836836-reading-maths-performance/
I would classify us are above average to good in terms of education, but not outstanding.

Teaching is one of the most dominant professions of people who are elected to Dail Eireann.

This was 2011
https://www.independent.ie/au/life/family/learning/teachers-still-top-of-class-for-31st-dail-representation-26709393.html
This is 2016.
https://www.irishtimes.com/election-2016/shape-of-the-dail#/

It does not bother me in the slightest, but the facts are the facts.

I need to correct this as its a half truth. The salary now includes allowances that were available to a previous cohort of teachers.
This means a higher base salary but a lower overall salary as allowances were removed.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. However, if you want to discuss this fine. No one is denying the benefits of having a modern children's hospital, what people are angry about and justified in their anger is the lack of accountability from a cohort of Civil Servants who costed and issued contracts who by all accounts hadn't a bulls notion what they were doing. These jobsworths are still employed and happy out.

See this is something where we could have common ground. Teachers are always complaining about the Dept. of Education and the useless penpushers who run it, something I could agree with. The debacle of the children's hospital is another example of public servants in a department treating the taxpayer like fools. This is the same issue in most other departments.

Yet, instead of seeking common ground here, in regards to civil servants getting in the way providing good quality health and educational services, you go on about a rant about the private sector, something I have not even mentioned.

I think that tells us a lot where the mindset is tbh.

That's civil servants, don't tar us all with the one brush.

markodaly · 21-02-2019 10:53am

evolving_doors wrote: »

And again I'll ask...where are those full time hours on educationposts.ie??

More graduates get full-time hours than not, the facts of this are clear from the HEA survey.

The issue is with getting teachers into permanent positions, not pay.

And yes child care staff are underpaid. Although whats the base requirement... Fetac Level 5? so maybe it's in line with qualifications.

I mentioned ECT's (Early Childcare Teachers) who by definition are degree qualified. About 20% of staff in Early Childcare are degree qualified and the government and EU want this to increase to 60% by 2025, yet I presume they will be happy to pay them all €10 an hour.

evolving_doors wrote: »

That's civil servants, don't tar us all with the one brush.

Civil Servants and Teachers are both public servants, are they not?
I was not intending to tar anyone with a brush but the culture no accountability, lack of real performance reviews and deep inertia are prevalent among all Public Servants, unfortunately, and especially with Civil Servants.

SligoBrewer · 21-02-2019 5:31pm

markodaly wrote: »

We spend the same per GDP as Japan, who have better outcomes.
https://data.oecd.org/eduresource/public-spending-on-education.htm

However, I agree we need to spend more, way more on Early Childcare Education especially. I have been banging that drum for ages. Any big uptick in spending should go there first and foremost. ECT's earning €10 an hour would love half the conditions primary school teachers get. We are decades behind most of the OECD in regards to this.

Sir123 · 21-02-2019 6:27pm

markodaly wrote: »

More graduates get full-time hours than not, the facts of this are clear from the HEA survey.

That's totally not true. I have two in demand subjects and in my first year of teaching I was not on full hours and no schools had been advertising these said full hours you mention. I believe the ASTI surveyed second level NQT teachers as well last year in which approx 20% stated that they had started on full hours. That's 80% that were not in full time employment and were teaching anything from as low as 2 to 21 hours at second level.

Only 20% get that €36k figure and even that's not a given for their second year as they may have only been covering a career break etc and that teacher comes back.

The fact of the matter is Permanent Whole Time positions at second level do not exist anymore. To become permanent now, you have to go down the CID route and have in excess of 2 years service in that school and have a guarantee that 'hours' are there. Also, in order to get to your second year you have to re-interview and it's not a given that you even get the job as some employers have become anti CID, we've seen it on here. Some teachers spend years in Permanent Part Time positions also through no fault of their own. This is the culture of teaching and it's not on.

I am totally appalled by the pay publication. They can't get it right at all. If teaching was such a cushy, fantastic and amazing job, then why are the Dept. of Ed. focusing on a major recruitment drive on the radio and Facebook to entice those to teaching and to complete the two year PME? It's a total joke. Everyone's leaving or not going into the profession, simple as.

SleetAndSnow · 21-02-2019 6:35pm

My sister has been graduated with French and English now for over 2 years and still does not have a full time contract, only 8 people in her year have gotten full time contracts and thats due to their relatives being principles etc. That survey was BS from the start, and I don't see it as a good example to use.

Crock Rock · 21-02-2019 6:36pm

Striking again?

evolving_doors · 21-02-2019 7:23pm

markodaly wrote: »

More graduates get full-time hours than not, the facts of this are clear from the HEA survey.

What page are you getting this from?
Do you mean full-time permanent btw?
Where are those jobs on educationposts.ie?

markodaly wrote: »

The issue is with getting teachers into permanent positions, not pay.

But you just said that 'More graduates get full-time hours than not' . If you hold this true then there's no issue!

markodaly wrote: »

I mentioned ECT's (Early Childcare Teachers) who by definition are degree qualified. About 20% of staff in Early Childcare are degree qualified and the government and EU want this to increase to 60% by 2025, yet I presume they will be happy to pay them all €10 an hour.

Where are getting the entry requirement into early childcare as degree though?

It's laughable that you whine on about any public sector pay rises (edit: that should be pay restoration) as being unaffordable... any but the one you've a personal interest in of course!

markodaly wrote: »

Civil Servants and Teachers are both public servants, are they not?
I was not intending to tar anyone with a brush but the culture no accountability, lack of real performance reviews and deep inertia are prevalent among all Public Servants, unfortunately, and especially with Civil Servants.

Civil servants are part of the public sector, as public servants are.
Public servants directly serve the public.

km79 · 21-02-2019 7:55pm

Why are you wasting your time ?

evolving_doors · 21-02-2019 8:05pm

km79 wrote: »

Why are you wasting your time ?

I said id give it one last shot.
Curiously enough any mention of Union issue and someone is in like flynn to trot out the same old misconceptions to scupper it, yould swear they were being paid to do it at this stage.

But hey childcare workers want a pay rise... if only there were some way they could unite to improve their pay and conditions.

Blaizes · 21-02-2019 10:13pm

Sir123 wrote: »

That's totally not true. I have two in demand subjects and in my first year of teaching I was not on full hours and no schools had been advertising these said full hours you mention. I believe the ASTI surveyed second level NQT teachers as well last year in which approx 20% stated that they had started on full hours. That's 80% that were not in full time employment and were teaching anything from as low as 2 to 21 hours at second level.

Only 20% get that €36k figure and even that's not a given for their second year as they may have only been covering a career break etc and that teacher comes back.

The fact of the matter is Permanent Whole Time positions at second level do not exist anymore. To become permanent now, you have to go down the CID route and have in excess of 2 years service in that school and have a guarantee that 'hours' are there. Also, in order to get to your second year you have to re-interview and it's not a given that you even get the job as some employers have become anti CID, we've seen it on here. Some teachers spend years in Permanent Part Time positions also through no fault of their own. This is the culture of teaching and it's not on.

I am totally appalled by the pay publication. They can't get it right at all. If teaching was such a cushy, fantastic and amazing job, then why are the Dept. of Ed. focusing on a major recruitment drive on the radio and Facebook to entice those to teaching and to complete the two year PME? It's a total joke. Everyone's leaving or not going into the profession, simple as.

I sometimes question the shortage myself.For example I worked with teachers in the UK who left because of lack of jobs here, also I know teachers working in the Middle East and beyond.These would all be TC registered pp teachers and on top of that there are many teachers here in Ireland who have left teaching and pursued other careers due to the very thing you are talking about lack of proper jobs. If all these people came back ( not saying they would but if they were offered proper jobs maybe ) would we even have a shortage.

There is such publicity about lack of teachers but that is because of the conditions and complete job insecurity.Teaching as you say is a part time gig for many now and unless you have backup like a working spouse or a family to support you or another part time job it just won't pay.Teachers get this reality and it maddens me too when I read articles like this knowing so many teachers who have left because they just couldn't get proper jobs through no fault of their own. And then the media begin bashing teacher with their cushy number not - in the hope the public will fall for it.

markodaly · 22-02-2019 1:08am

Sir123 wrote: »

That's totally not true. I have two in demand subjects and in my first year of teaching I was not on full hours and no schools had been advertising these said full hours you mention.

It may well be the case in your case, but according to the HEA survey, there are more graduate teachers working in full-time hours than not. That is what the survey tells us.

42% of graduates with a Bachelor Teaching degree has full-time hours, with just 7% getting the coveted permanent position (32% are on a full-time temp contract), compared with 14% on part-time hours.

45% of graduates with a PME have full-time hours, with just 7% getting permanent positions (with 37% are on a full-time temp contract), compared with 17% getting part-time hours.

The fact of the matter is Permanent Whole Time positions at second level do not exist anymore.

They do exist, its just a minority of teachers get these positions. And to be clear I agree with you that more should be done in relation to this. I mentioned some reasons as to how this could be improved as well.

Some teachers spend years in Permanent Part Time positions also through no fault of their own. This is the culture of teaching and it's not on.

I 100% agree with you.

Everyone's leaving or not going into the profession, simple as.

I am sorry but that is a change of your earlier position. You stated that there are no permanent positions anymore, yet also claim that everyone is leaving the teaching profession and that there is a lack of graduates. These positions are contradictory.

markodaly · 22-02-2019 1:45am

evolving_doors wrote: »

Do you mean full-time permanent btw?

No, I thought I was clear, full-time hours for people on both temp and permanent contracts.

But you just said that 'More graduates get full-time hours than not' . If you hold this true then there's no issue!

No, I have repeated this many times, the issue is not with pay, but with opening up permanent positions for NQT's.

Where are getting the entry requirement into early childcare as degree though?

I am not sure what you mean here? Are you talking CAO points or government legislation in terms of ratios for the Early Learning sector?

It's laughable that you whine on about any public sector pay rises (edit: that should be pay restoration) as being unaffordable... any but the one you've a personal interest in of course!

Perhaps, but it brings in some context into the debate. I know some teachers think they have it worst of the lot, but I can tell you it's not true, unpopular as it is.

What is pleasing though, in the last few posts, we actually have a lot to agree on.
We have not talked about pay comparisons at all but mostly about permanency for NQT's something we can have common ground.

If only the ASTI and others took the same position things might get somewhere but I know the game. The vast majority of members of the ASTI are on a permanent contract anyway, so fighting for that for NQT is not in their own personal interest, but a pay rise sure is. Hence why they but pay before permanency, which in my own opinion is folly and to the detriment of NQT's.

amacca · 22-02-2019 3:13am

markodaly wrote: »

I am sorry but that is a change of your earlier position. You stated that there are no permanent positions anymore, yet also claim that everyone is leaving the teaching profession and that there is a lack of graduates. These positions are contradictory.

how are those contradictory?

evolving_doors · 22-02-2019 8:34am

So anyway,
As sure as night follows day the indo have the sponsored ads up.

https://m.independent.ie/storyplus/considering-your-career-options-heres-why-you-should-think-about-teaching-37830780.html?x&fbclid=IwAR21ps4-zzv8s8P1ehu7Bc72XHONOAv_3Ah_QM3KPu0qhUMME7t3a5qfDZM

Here's the best line:
"Prospects are so good that 93% of education graduates are working or about to start a job."

markodaly · 22-02-2019 1:47pm

amacca wrote: »

how are those contradictory?

On one hand, stating that there are no permanent positions available for NQT's (which is wrong), then saying that there is a lack of graduates and loads of teachers are leaving the sector (which is unproven).

If the latter was the case, then there would be much more positions on offer due to positions opening up. The government hasn't canned, reduced or made redundant a whole bunch of teaching positions, so positions should stay equal at worst.

So in essence, logic dictates that these positions are contradictory.

markodaly · 22-02-2019 1:50pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

"Prospects are so good that 93% of education graduates are working or about to start a job."

Is that wrong, factually? A job can be teaching, or not teaching, or working full-time hours or part-time.

The headline is probably correct but as always one has to do due diligence with any media headline, as the devil is in the detail.

Bobtheman · 22-02-2019 2:31pm

I think anybody who went through the old system will say it was no picnic either. EPT contracts only arrived 1988. Before that it was part time hours or permenant.
CPD was an improvement.
The vast majority of teachers took about 5 years to get permency under old system.
I would not like to be joining teaching now as the managerialists are starting to take over. Learning outcome bull****. AFL. More bull****. Pretending kids are doing project work more bull****.
However the box ticking frenzy has taken over most professions and generation snowflake too busy on Facebook or tinder to fight back seriously.

SligoBrewer · 22-02-2019 2:43pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

However the box ticking frenzy has taken over most professions and generation snowflake too busy on Facebook or tinder to fight back seriously.

Blaming younger teachers or labelling them as snowflakes is a bit facile.

Mardy Bum · 22-02-2019 2:49pm

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Blaming younger teachers or labelling them as snowflakes is a bit facile.

Using the term "generation snowflake" invalidates any argument about anything.

evolving_doors · 22-02-2019 5:16pm

markodaly wrote: »

Is that wrong, factually? A job can be teaching, or not teaching, or working full-time hours or part-time.

The headline is probably correct but as always one has to do due diligence with any media headline, as the devil is in the detail.

Ya thanks for clearing that up, I must remember that for my next stats class so I can get better outcomes like Japan or something.

So anyway, whats the next stage. Is the ASTI awaiting INTO or TUI ballot. I've lost track.

Trekky77 · 22-02-2019 5:37pm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Ya thanks for clearing that up, I must remember that for my next stats class so I can get better outcomes like Japan or something.

So anyway, whats the next stage. Is the ASTI awaiting INTO or TUI ballot. I've lost track.

At the moment the TUI have the position of awaiting a ballot by ASTI and INTO of its members. However ASTI are waiting for the results of INTO balloting their members.

It reminds me of the classic Mexican stand off scene from the U.S office. I have attached a photo for anyone not au faith with the sitcom.

At this stage the ball has well and truly been dropped. The nurses had all the public support we will not have. The government are getting their ducks in a row by running false headlines in the Indo and other national papers.

I actually saw an advertisement for teachers on the Indo's FB page. The irony of saying we are the best paid graduates in one article and being paid by the dept of education to advertise for teachers in another is amusing. Would love to see how much that cost?

The PR battle has been lost a long time ago.

Heads up though we are back to the grindstone on Monday!

evolving_doors · 22-02-2019 6:12pm

Mexican standoff

wirelessdude01 · 22-02-2019 7:29pm

Trekky77 wrote:

At the moment the TUI have the position of awaiting a ballot by ASTI and INTO of its members. However ASTI are waiting for the results of INTO balloting their members.

As an active INTO member the ASTI best get ready for a long wait so. Our CEC have no intention or interest in balloting. Will be avoided at all costs. I'm waiting for an announcement that they will be entering talks about talks or some such waffle just before the Easter Congress week.

Bobtheman · 22-02-2019 8:49pm

Call them what you like-the young uns/snowflakes whatever better get off their backsides if they want change.

amacca · 22-02-2019 10:16pm

markodaly wrote: »

On one hand, stating that there are no permanent positions available for NQT's (which is wrong), then saying that there is a lack of graduates and loads of teachers are leaving the sector (which is unproven).

If the latter was the case, then there would be much more positions on offer due to positions opening up. The government hasn't canned, reduced or made redundant a whole bunch of teaching positions, so positions should stay equal at worst.

So in essence, logic dictates that these positions are contradictory.

Ah, I thought there was something I didn't understand about your post.

Your "logic" needs work unfortunately imo

.......people could be leaving and the jobs being offered may not be permanent full-time positions which I believe was the point the poster you were responding to was making.....so in essence the two are not mutually exclusive positions.

markodaly · 23-02-2019 12:44am

Bobtheman wrote: »

However the box ticking frenzy has taken over most professions and generation snowflake too busy on Facebook or tinder to fight back seriously.

A very pertinent point. Useless paperwork and boxing is the mainstay of pretty much every profession so much so doing actual work comes secondary to what one is trained to do.

markodaly · 23-02-2019 12:48am

amacca wrote: »

Ah, I thought there was something I didn't understand about your post.

Your "logic" needs work unfortunately imo .......people could be leaving and the jobs being offered may not be permanent full-time positions which I believe was the point the poster you were responding to was making.....so in essence the two are not mutually exclusive positions.

Is there evidence that this is happening on a large scale across the sector?
One would think that if a permanent teacher left the profession or retired, that that permanent position would be opened up for someone else.

evolving_doors · 23-02-2019 2:56am

Bobtheman wrote: »

Call them what you like-the young uns/snowflakes whatever better get off their backsides if they want change.

Well I think it's a case of everyone doing it for their own profession as a whole and not a case of one group vs another. That's the same old rabbit hole that the pubic sector vs private sector goes down.

SligoBrewer · 23-02-2019 11:31am

Bobtheman wrote: »

Call them what you like-the young uns/snowflakes whatever better get off their backsides if they want change.

Ah yes; being in a union for yourself and your own interests only. What is in it for you to fight for me?

ASTI ballot

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