Is The Property Market Unfair to First Time Buyers?

Bluefoam · 26-10-2020 7:15pm #1

PropQueries wrote: »

Well the housing minister said in July: “You’ll know that for 2020, the target was to deliver 11,167 social homes through the Build, Acquisitions and Leasing programmes combined,” O’Brien said.“

That’s a lot of government purchases/leases in the private market, directly competing with first time buyers, especially given how little dedicated social housing they’re building.

Basically, the government is the housing market now and they’re taxing/ will be taxing younger workers more and more to continue outbidding them for housing in the marketplace. Basically younger workers are funding their main competitor in the marketplace i.e. the government. Hard to win a bidding war against them IMO.

Link here: https://www.thejournal.ie/housing-minister-local-authorities-buy-up-new-properties-5155602-Jul2020/

Oh, I thought we were discussing the *imminent crash... It seems what we are actally discussing is how unfair it is on first time buyers...

And while I do feel bad for first time buyers allot of the time... It has always been difficult to get on the property ladder... However, as I said earlier, there are some people wishing us into a property crash, because they think it's an opportunity for them... That's a short sighted view.

I do wonder to myself, when I hear coworkers complaining about no being able to afford their first house at the age of 35+, and then a minute later telling you how they are replacing their two year old car with the newer version that costs 35k each time... While they're playing on their latest model iPhone...

Yes it's difficult, but it can be done... Is it fair? Probably not... But if it's what you want, get on with it... Just get it done, however long it takes. If you want other things, then put resources into them.

PropQueries · 26-10-2020 7:32pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Oh, I thought we were discussing the *imminent crash... It seems what we are actally discussing is how unfair it is on first time buyers...

And while I do feel bad for first time buyers allot of the time... It has always been difficult to get on the property ladder... However, as I said earlier, there are some people wishing us into a property crash, because they think it's an opportunity for them... That's a short sighted view.

I do wonder to myself, when I hear coworkers complaining about no being able to afford their first house at the age of 35+, and then a minute later telling you how they are replacing their two year old car with the newer version that costs 35k each time... While they're playing on their latest model iPhone...

Yes it's difficult, but it can be done... Is it fair? Probably not... But if it's what you want, get on with it... Just get it done, however long it takes. If you want other things, then put resources into them.

Well they work hard and deserve their high salaries. There’s this nonsense in the country at the moment that just because they earn high salaries they should then pay more than market price i.e. the price they would be paying if the government wasn’t continuously outbidding them for a home to either buy or rent.

I think you’ll agree that it’s the government purchases/leases (paid with borrowed money) that is keeping house prices/rents high.

This will stop sooner than many people realise and that’s probably when the real major crash will happen. The governments removal from the market through either not being able to borrow any more or not needing social housing anymore (that’s very possible in my opinion and may happen sooner than many people realise) will be equivalent (probably worse) to the banking bust over 10 years ago.

Dwarf.Shortage · 26-10-2020 7:41pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Oh, I thought we were discussing the *imminent crash... It seems what we are actally discussing is how unfair it is on first time buyers...

And while I do feel bad for first time buyers allot of the time... It has always been difficult to get on the property ladder... However, as I said earlier, there are some people wishing us into a property crash, because they think it's an opportunity for them... That's a short sighted view.

I do wonder to myself, when I hear coworkers complaining about no being able to afford their first house at the age of 35+, and then a minute later telling you how they are replacing their two year old car with the newer version that costs 35k each time... While they're playing on their latest model iPhone...

Yes it's difficult, but it can be done... Is it fair? Probably not... But if it's what you want, get on with it... Just get it done, however long it takes. If you want other things, then put resources into them.

I assume they're eating avocado toast as they tell you all this?

Stark · 26-10-2020 7:48pm

Sure you can buy a house for 350 iPhones.

jill_valentine · 26-10-2020 7:57pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I do wonder to myself, when I hear coworkers complaining about no being able to afford their first house at the age of 35+, and then a minute later telling you how they are replacing their two year old car with the newer version that costs 35k each time... While they're playing on their latest model iPhone...

I literally don't know a single person who has ever bought a car new, but iPhones come as part of contracts.

Giving you benefit of the doubt though - being able to get either of these things would have effectively no implications for your mortgage facilitated buying power anyway, which is almost completely dictated by the salary cap. You would be saving your entire career and not make up the difference in buying power the salary cap has hobbled you with.

cnocbui · 26-10-2020 8:09pm

I'd hazzard a guess he was referencing the lack of financial discipline exhibited by the 'I'm worth it' crowd.

I never took an overseas holiday while saving for my deposit and I drove the same used car for 12 years and did my own maintaince on it. There weren't any mobile phones then, but had there been, no way would I get one on contract. A used phone, PAYG, no data and watch the calls.

Bluefoam · 26-10-2020 8:15pm

Jaysus calm down everyone, I'm not the enemy... I've just spent ten years getting back on my feet. Sold my home in the last recession and had to pay off that debt before competing with the government to buy a tiny house.... I'm not a high earner, just an average buyer.

My point is that it is possible. I gave up literally everything to get here, but that was my priority.

Dwarf.Shortage · 26-10-2020 8:59pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I'd hazzard a guess he was referencing the lack of financial discipline exhibited by the 'I'm worth it' crowd.

I never took an overseas holiday while saving for my deposit and I drove the same used car for 12 years and did my own maintaince on it. There weren't any mobile phones then, but had there been, no way would I get one on contract. A used phone, PAYG, no data and watch the calls.

Is there a parcel motel near you? there's a medal here burning a hole in my pocket.

You can get a plan with unlimited calls and data for €7.99 a month so the concept of going without data in 2020 to try buy a house is just austerity porn. It's an irrelevant level of expense for something most people get enormous value from.

FTB's will be told to start going splits with a mate on a pair of shoes and both hop around the place next.

Taylor365 · 26-10-2020 9:28pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I'd hazzard a guess he was referencing the lack of financial discipline exhibited by the 'I'm worth it' crowd.

I never took an overseas holiday while saving for my deposit and I drove the same used car for 12 years and did my own maintaince on it. There weren't any mobile phones then, but had there been, no way would I get one on contract. A used phone, PAYG, no data and watch the calls.

No mobile phones. Right I'll go with he 80s:

Average wage of £8,000-15,000 a year.
Dublin 3 bed cost about £30,000.

Now:

Average wage of €30,000-50,000 a year.
Dublin 3 bed cost about €400,000.

Donald Trump · 26-10-2020 9:54pm

Taylor365 wrote: »

No mobile phones. Right I'll go with he 80s:

Average wage of £8,000-15,000 a year.
Dublin 3 bed cost about £30,000.

Now:

Average wage of €30,000-50,000 a year.
Dublin 3 bed cost about €400,000.

You would also have to adjust for tax rates there as well. It might not make a huge difference, but it might make a bit of a difference!

Dwarf.Shortage · 26-10-2020 9:54pm

Taylor365 wrote: »

No mobile phones. Right I'll go with he 80s:

Average wage of £8,000-15,000 a year.
Dublin 3 bed cost about £30,000.

Now:

Average wage of €30,000-50,000 a year.
Dublin 3 bed cost about €400,000.

This is the bit the austerity porn crowd refuse to engage with. That if you're on the average industrial wage in 2020 you can save what you want, you won't be able to buy a house.

Donald Trump · 26-10-2020 9:57pm

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

This is the bit the austerity porn crowd refuse to engage with. That if you're on the average industrial wage in 2020 you can save what you want, you won't be able to buy a house.

There are limits though. There are a lot of people who fritter away money on shite. Real disposable income is a far higher proportion of peoples gross income these days.

Dwarf.Shortage · 26-10-2020 10:15pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

There are limits though. There are a lot of people who fritter away money on shite. Real disposable income is a far higher proportion of peoples gross income these days.

If you are on the average industrial wage in this country you can get a maximum mortgage of €133k, the average house price is €267,000.

Can you imagine how frustrating it is to need a €134,000 deposit to buy the average house, despite being on the average industrial wage, and to have people who bought in the 80s and pulled the ladder up after them tell you that your problem is that you have an iPhone?

It's f**king nonsense.

cnocbui · 26-10-2020 10:16pm

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

Is there a parcel motel near you? there's a medal here burning a hole in my pocket.

You can get a plan with unlimited calls and data for €7.99 a month so the concept of going without data in 2020 to try buy a house is just austerity porn. It's an irrelevant level of expense for something most people get enormous value from.

FTB's will be told to start going splits with a mate on a pair of shoes and both hop around the place next.

Is the medal worth much? If so, I'll happily take it and sell it and add the proceeds to my next house to buy fund. Avocados are 69c in Lidl and a slice of toast would hardly be 3c, i'd imagine, so cheap snack/meal. That 48.ie plan is really good value, thanks, I'll probably subscibe.

jill_valentine · 26-10-2020 10:27pm

cnocbui wrote: »

I'd hazzard a guess he was referencing the lack of financial discipline exhibited by the 'I'm worth it' crowd.

I never took an overseas holiday while saving for my deposit and I drove the same used car for 12 years and did my own maintaince on it. There weren't any mobile phones then, but had there been, no way would I get one on contract. A used phone, PAYG, no data and watch the calls.

I'm laughing at this post because I can't recall the last time I left the province, never mind the country, and I don't own a car. My phone is used for work, so contract works out significantly cheaper.

These posts are mad, it's like the Torys in the UK asking why people won't just sell their pearls, just completely unmoored from the fundamental economics of 2020 -

No amount of saving on the average wage will put you in reach of a mortgage that will buy you the average house. If you never bought another phone or filled a petrol tank, you still won't be able to change the salary cap.

The median private sector wage of about 31k can get a mortgage topping out at about 110k. Even if you didn't buy food, pay rent or use a single bus, you will not save the difference between your available mortgage and what a house would actually cost. No amount of packed lunches are going to save 150k.

Bubbaclaus · 26-10-2020 10:34pm

The average full time wage in Ireland is 49k. People using lower figures are including part time workers which bring down the average.

I don't think a single part time worker was ever in a position to buy their own home, in any era of the State.

Dwarf.Shortage · 26-10-2020 10:42pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

The average full time wage in Ireland is 49k. People using lower figures are including part time workers which bring down the average.

I don't think a single part time worker was ever in a position to buy their own home, in any era of the State.

Average industrial wage is €38k.

PHG · 26-10-2020 10:52pm

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

Average industrial wage is €38k.

But the average wage is as per Bubbaclaus comment. Average combined wage would be €98k.

Adjust for region obviously

Dwarf.Shortage · 26-10-2020 11:00pm

PHG wrote: »

But the average wage is as per Bubbaclaus comment. Average combined wage would be €98k.

Adjust for region obviously

More than capable of doubling 49 but thank you.

The average wage, like the mean of any highly variable data set, is skewed much higher by the ultra high earners. The median would be a much more appropriate figure and it would be much closer to the average industrial but from what I can tell isn't available. The average industrial wage does not include part time workers which is exactly why I use it. It ignores the extremes at both ends of the distribution.

If Jeff Bezo's walked into a bar the average person in the bar would be a billionaire etc.

PHG · 26-10-2020 11:20pm

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

More than capable of doubling 49 but thank you.

The average wage, like the mean of any highly variable data set, is skewed much higher by the ultra high earners. The median would be a much more appropriate figure and it would be much closer to the average industrial but from what I can tell isn't available. The average industrial wage does not include part time workers which is exactly why I use it. It ignores the extremes at both ends of the distribution.

If Jeff Bezo's walked into a bar the average person in the bar would be a billionaire etc.

Yes I know what median and can sort of see your point but nobody can say use the average house price in the country use it against median wage. It all has to be done on a regional basis.

If you take say the average wage in a region then take the average house price though skewed. If you take the median wage take the median house price.

We can't take the salary of a public or private worker working in Mayo and compare it against them potentially buying a house in Dublin.

Dwarf.Shortage · 26-10-2020 11:34pm

PHG wrote: »

Yes I know what median and can sort of see your point but nobody can say use the average house price in the country use it against median wage. It all has to be done on a regional basis.

If you take say the average wage in a region then take the average house price though skewed. If you take the median wage take the median house price.

We can't take the salary of a public or private worker working in Mayo and compare it against them potentially buying a house in Dublin.

Yeah no I completely agree, regional disparities disappear in analysis based on overall national averages.

But I think it's fair to say averages workers are struggling to buy houses nationwide. The extent of the struggle might vary regionally but it's a national issue.

cnocbui · 26-10-2020 11:41pm

jill_valentine wrote: »

I'm laughing at this post because I can't recall the last time I left the province, never mind the country, and I don't own a car. My phone is used for work, so contract works out significantly cheaper.

These posts are mad, it's like the Torys in the UK asking why people won't just sell their pearls, just completely unmoored from the fundamental economics of 2020 -

No amount of saving on the average wage will put you in reach of a mortgage that will buy you the average house. If you never bought another phone or filled a petrol tank, you still won't be able to change the salary cap.

The median private sector wage of about 31k can get a mortgage topping out at about 110k. Even if you didn't buy food, pay rent or use a single bus, you will not save the difference between your available mortgage and what a house would actually cost. No amount of packed lunches are going to save 150k.

I agree with what you are saying, but so many people go on about housing inaffordability in Dublin as if it were a provincial city, not the capital city of a country with a significant multinational employer presence and the competitive advantage in buying power given their employees. As I have many times pointed out, housing is expensive in capital cities world wide. People on lowish wages can't afford to buy houses in London, either.

My ex managed to buy a reasonably renovated 2 bedroom house within a 10 minute walk of Limerick city centre for €100,000 in 2012. More sheer luck than skill in timing the bottom of the market.

You can currently get a single bedroom apartment in Limerick for €70 K (haven't looked for better, literally picked the second result from the search)

I am sure a suggestion of looking for work and accommodation outside Dublin will be as well received as that of thrift.

In Dublin, I believe government taxes and council charges make up a significant portion of the cost of new residential accomodation:

Development Levies (Levies, Electricity, Gas and Water) - €123psm (€11psf) Connection fees associated with Local Authority foul and surface water, gas, electricity and water connection fees. Levies are a very significant “on-cost” in the provision of housing, the costs of which have to be borne from early in the construction cost cycle

Value-Added Tax – €387psm (€36psf)The total VAT for this average house figure is € 44,164. All new homes will include a VAT charge of 13.5%. The VAT take on an average 3-bedroom semi is 12% of the total delivery cost. By way of comparison, new house sales in Northern Ireland and the UK attract zero VAT rates.

https://www.scsi.ie/documents/get_lob?id=1551&field=file

IMO, succesive Irish governements have been utterly weded to the idea of low taxation for corporations, resulting in high taxation of individuals. The policy skew contributes to the high taxation and cost of housing.

Then there's the nonsense of 'social housing', competing with FTBs and low corporate taxation for property funds, which encourages them to compete in the housing market.

A very large part of Dublin house prices can be blamed on the government.

Donald Trump · 26-10-2020 11:51pm

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

If you are on the average industrial wage in this country you can get a maximum mortgage of €133k, the average house price is €267,000.

Can you imagine how frustrating it is to need a €134,000 deposit to buy the average house, despite being on the average industrial wage, and to have people who bought in the 80s and pulled the ladder up after them tell you that your problem is that you have an iPhone?

It's f**king nonsense.

Yeah but your house today has a lot more in it than a house in the 80's. People moved into their houses in the 1980's and did up one room at a time over a few years.

And what of the cost of servicing that mortgage?

The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.

Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.

Geuze · 27-10-2020 12:09am

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

Average industrial wage is €38k.

AIW not published anymore.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

2019 data, for all earnings, incl. overtime and bonuses

Average earnings = 40,283

Average earnings of FT workers = 48,946

Average earnings in Industry = 47,104 (all workers in Industry)

Note that the average earnings of mortgage applicants are higher again.

27-10-2020 1:05am

Donald Trump wrote: »

The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? .

People who still have their communion money maybe, not your average 30 year old.

Dwarf.Shortage · 27-10-2020 1:51am

Geuze wrote: »

AIW not published anymore.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2019/

2019 data, for all earnings, incl. overtime and bonuses

Average earnings = 40,283

Average earnings of FT workers = 48,946

Average earnings in Industry = 47,104 (all workers in Industry)

Note that the average earnings of mortgage applicants are higher again.

Of course they are, someone on the average wage hasn't a hope in hell of buying a house why would they apply for a mortgage.

jill_valentine · 27-10-2020 9:37am

Donald Trump wrote: »

The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.

Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.

You're also assuming they haven't lived anywhere, paid any bills, and worked in unbroken employment in that time. So I would say quite unrealistic, yes.

In the real world, someone who left college ten years ago will have almost certainly been let go or had their employer go bust at least once and worked at least one zero hours contract in that time, a period when they would have been glad to get 200 a week, never mind save it.

For perspective, ten years ago I was working in a video game shop sifting through CVs from engineers and chemists. I got a quote for car insurance around the same time for 7 grand a year, and we all spent quite a lot of time in the work kitchen when we were off because the tea and bread was free.

100k savings for a post 2007 thirty year old is fantasy land. Under present conditions most people in that age group will have their first shot at home ownership when their parents die.

KennisWhale · 27-10-2020 11:07am

jill_valentine wrote: »

You're also assuming they haven't lived anywhere, paid any bills, and worked in unbroken employment in that time. So I would say quite unrealistic, yes.

In the real world, someone who left college ten years ago will have almost certainly been let go or had their employer go bust at least once and worked at least one zero hours contract in that time, a period when they would have been glad to get 200 a week, never mind save it.

For perspective, ten years ago I was working in a video game shop sifting through CVs from engineers and chemists. I got a quote for car insurance around the same time for 7 grand a year, and we all spent quite a lot of time in the work kitchen when we were off because the tea and bread was free.

100k savings for a post 2007 thirty year old is fantasy land. Under present conditions most people in that age group will have their first shot at home ownership when their parents die.

I left college 9 years ago and didn't get a proper paying job (just had a part-time pub job) for 2 years. The salary was 1700 so after I paid rent and bills I always had 900 left. It took 2 years to get a salary bump of 500 per month, which was nice, but unfortunately my new rent took 200 of that 500! The last 4 years the salary has been good so I have luckily been able to save good money despite rent climbing further but 100k savings? Not even close. Halve it and add in the other half's savings and you will get a more realistic figure!

nerrad01 · 27-10-2020 12:56pm

Its a simple supply and demand issue, not enough properties and still enough people in secure well paid employment to keep the prices sustained. I cant see this changing, and i had previously been convinced we would be in for a crash.

The rental market on the other hand is in for a major correction (or at least should be if the reits were made pay tax on all those vacant properties they are using to price fix the rental market with). What effect this will have, if any, on the purchasing market is anyones guess

DellyBelly · 27-10-2020 4:20pm

[QUOTE=
100k savings for a post 2007 thirty year old is fantasy land. Under present conditions most people in that age group will have their first shot at home ownership when their parents die.[/QUOTE]

I would disagree with that. I know plenty of people in their early 30s who would have more than 100k in savings. Some of course is via inheritance but mostly though saving hard. A person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

Cantstandsya · 27-10-2020 6:14pm

DellyBelly wrote: »

I would disagree with that. I know plenty of people in their early 30s who would have more than 100k in savings. Some of course is via inheritance but mostly though saving hard. A person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

Is this post a joke?

Danzy · 27-10-2020 7:12pm

DellyBelly wrote: »

I would disagree with that. I know plenty of people in their early 30s who would have more than 100k in savings. Some of course is via inheritance but mostly though saving hard. A person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

It's hard to know if this is trolling or just that you live in a very small bubble.

No offense, just intriguing.

The median household income in Dunlaoghaire Rathdown is 66k , one of the richer parts.

The % of people on 80k to 100k is very small. 58k people, statewide in August 2018

jill_valentine · 27-10-2020 7:18pm

DellyBelly wrote: »

person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

The median salary in Dublin as of last year was between 35-40k, ie half the population earn less than that. 80k is not average or near average by any metric at all.

Taylor365 · 27-10-2020 8:20pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.

Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.

You forget the average 29-34 year old graduated during a recession. Putting a big dent in earning power for a good 5 years.

jill_valentine · 28-10-2020 12:21am

Springy Turf wrote: »

For those quoting statistics please quote your source (lots of posters). And advice for everyone else including myself - disregard any stats that are trotted out without a source.

Fair enough. I said between 35k to 40k -

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/region/.

(645.78×52 = 33,580.56)

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/great-divide-in-household-income-across-the-country-is-laid-bare-38239841.html

"Dublin City had the highest earned income per person at €39,999"

Springy Turf · 28-10-2020 1:17am

jill_valentine wrote: »

Fair enough. I said between 35k to 40k -

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/region/.

(645.78×52 = 33,580.56)

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/great-divide-in-household-income-across-the-country-is-laid-bare-38239841.html

"Dublin City had the highest earned income per person at €39,999"

Thanks for referencing. I didn't mean to single you out (even though my post was below yours), there is a tonne of posts in this thread with completely unreferenced claims of facts and figures. A lot of them don't stand up to scrutiny.

I'm not 100% clear on if that median is full time only or includes part time. It's good to see the distribution page, showing how the mean is a lot higher than the median because of the small number of very high earners.

jill_valentine · 28-10-2020 3:08am

Donald Trump wrote: »

The obvious question is then what was your choice regarding the car? Did you insure it for 7k?

People convince themselves that they *need* things that just make their life more comfortable. 7k on car insurance probably equates to well over 10k a year running costs on a car. Spending that to be able to drive a few minutes down the road to work on your off days to eat free bread seems the height of madness to me

It might have been worth waiting for my reply before Newstalking off into the distance there at the end - I didn't even buy the car, because the insurance would have been 7k. I had the luxury of being within range of public transport, so I could and have managed without one - though if I'd been back home in the country I wouldn't have had a choice (something I wish people remembered when casually suggesting people move out of expensive old Dublin, but that's another argument.)

I have to say, this has been a fairly eye opening day about how much stock to put in some of the speculation here, where keen grasps on the modern economic landscape have the average wage at 80k and we could all be sitting on 100k savings if we just used prepay phones.

Donald Trump · 28-10-2020 3:38am

jill_valentine wrote: »

It might have been worth waiting for my reply before Newstalking off into the distance there at the end - I didn't even buy the car, because the insurance would have been 7k. I had the luxury of being within range of public transport, so I could and have managed without one - though if I'd been back home in the country I wouldn't have had a choice (something I wish people remembered when casually suggesting people move out of expensive old Dublin, but that's another argument.)

I have to say, this has been a fairly eye opening day about how much stock to put in some of the speculation here, where keen grasps on the modern economic landscape have the average wage at 80k and we could all be sitting on 100k savings if we just used prepay phones.

I observe that people tend to spend a sizeable amount on income on crap. If you think it's not realistic to save it then that is your opinion. I know that it is not impossible. A reasonable cross section of society in their 20's could save 200 quid a week. You wouldn't need to be on 80k a year to do so.

If you went to college then you probably survived on very little until you were say 22. If you stretched out that living like a student for say 2 years while working on a fairly low paid job, you would still be easily able to save 200 a week. No?

Not sure why you seem to think that prepay phones work out as cheaper than billpay btw.

smurgen · 28-10-2020 8:27am

Donald Trump wrote: »

I observe that people tend to spend a sizeable amount on income on crap. If you think it's not realistic to save it then that is your opinion. I know that it is not impossible. A reasonable cross section of society in their 20's could save 200 quid a week. You wouldn't need to be on 80k a year to do so.

If you went to college then you probably survived on very little until you were say 22. If you stretched out that living like a student for say 2 years while working on a fairly low paid job, you would still be easily able to save 200 a week. No?

Not sure why you seem to think that prepay phones work out as cheaper than billpay btw.

Because they absolutely do.

Bubbaclaus · 28-10-2020 9:33am

smurgen wrote: »

Because they absolutely do.

How so? My bill is 9.99 per month and essentially gives me unlimited everything. What prepay options are cheaper?

Ursabear · 28-10-2020 9:34am

If you want to see how out of whack the idea that people on full time incomes are on such high salaries look back over the reactions and then further reporting at the time when Leo Varadker mentioned it. Remembering that the few high earners skew the average upwards .

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-fact-check-is-the-average-income-really-47-000-1.4155272%3fmode=amp

28-10-2020 9:50am

jill_valentine wrote: »

Fair enough. I said between 35k to 40k -

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/region/.

(645.78×52 = 33,580.56)

https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/great-divide-in-household-income-across-the-country-is-laid-bare-38239841.html

"Dublin City had the highest earned income per person at €39,999"

The Dublin coastal town of Malahide had the highest average income of €78,631 of all 41 towns in the country with a population of 10,000 or over.

Holy ****, 78k per person :eek: That is absolutely nuts.

Vieira82 · 28-10-2020 9:55am

Donald Trump wrote: »

The obvious question is then what was your choice regarding the car? Did you insure it for 7k?

People convince themselves that they *need* things that just make their life more comfortable. 7k on car insurance probably equates to well over 10k a year running costs on a car. Spending that to be able to drive a few minutes down the road to work on your off days to eat free bread seems the height of madness to me

hey hey hey vouching in on this because it's really close to my heart...

I needed a car for my business, you can't go around distributing goods without 4 wheels. Looked for 7 months for not only a car/van and insurance. First of all van was out of question got immediately denied by brokers and insurers. Went for a car and despite having a 1 year cover on my partners policy and a eu drivers license since 2003 I got quoted 4500€ for the car I wanted. This hapenned after literally walking down south mall in cork going to each insurance company and broker and being denied insurance. Finally a broker got me this quote with XS Direct, the only one insuring drivers in this cirucinstances and obviously making this amount of money on it.

I was told by the broker "if you get a recent or new car that can go down substantially... well only chance now was trying to get a hire purchase agreement on a 2 year old car. Got that in the hopes the insurance would go down, it went down to 2700€ a year, it subsquently went down to 900€ last year and 800€ this year. I'm still paying the car of course, despite my business completely died with the pandemic, I got the payment break for 6 months but was told if I extended it now I would have that affect my credit rating as acording to them on the phone "the pandemic payment break is now over".

So thankfully I'm on pup and i'm using it to pay for rent the car and saving for the car insurance next year... I'm looking actively for WFH jobs every day and trinyg to get my business online but it's not exactly easy when there's no cash flowing meaning no way to buy new goods when your suppliers are all scared of sending you stock without any idea if they'll be paid...

So since I got the car I cannot help but feel completely ripped off by insurance companies, and I know perfectly well I'm not the worse off. But when you walk into every insurer in south mall, ring all of them and they tell to your face "we won't insure you" for months on end and then the only one available is at exhorbitant prices it really makes you mad. Specially because you know it's all down to them making millions out of regular people and using, conveniently, claims ro raise the price of insurance for everyone. i really hope the EU would put them all in check and make them payback the excess they charged to people. I can only dream of course...

brisan · 28-10-2020 1:37pm

Stark wrote: »

Sure you can buy a house for 350 iPhones.

You can buy 2 houses for 350 iphones in some parts of the country

brisan · 28-10-2020 1:44pm

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

More than capable of doubling 49 but thank you.

The average wage, like the mean of any highly variable data set, is skewed much higher by the ultra high earners. The median would be a much more appropriate figure and it would be much closer to the average industrial but from what I can tell isn't available. The average industrial wage does not include part time workers which is exactly why I use it. It ignores the extremes at both ends of the distribution.

If Jeff Bezo's walked into a bar the average person in the bar would be a billionaire etc.

Well that will not happen in the Rep of Ireland in the next 5 weeks

brisan · 28-10-2020 1:49pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yeah but your house today has a lot more in it than a house in the 80's. People moved into their houses in the 1980's and did up one room at a time over a few years.

And what of the cost of servicing that mortgage?

The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.

Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.

Would they still be able to go out out or would they be restricted to just going out
Would pre drinks be affordable and what about Prosecco with brunch
Too many imponderables
They would need to take a year out to find themselves

brisan · 28-10-2020 1:49pm

Deleted User wrote: »

People who still have their communion money maybe, not your average 30 year old.

Difference in being able and being willing

brisan · 28-10-2020 2:26pm

DellyBelly wrote: »

I would disagree with that. I know plenty of people in their early 30s who would have more than 100k in savings. Some of course is via inheritance but mostly though saving hard. A person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

Ha HA
And I am on 80k plus but its no where near average

IAmTheReign · 29-10-2020 9:34am

Donald Trump wrote: »

The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.

Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.

Do people on here actually believe that it's easy for someone to save 100k by the time they're 30?

Median gross income in Ireland is only around 35k a year. According to PWCs income tax calculator that gives you about 560 a week net.

Assuming you started saving at 22, in order to save 100k by the time they're 30 you actually need to save 240 euro a week, not 200. Say 250 a week for rent (assuming you don't mind living in a house share when you're 30), that would leave you a grand total of 70 quid a week for bills, food, transport costs and any discretionary spending. So yeah, if you graduated college at 22, walked into a job paying a median salary the minute you graduated, and lived like a hermit for 8 years you might just about save 100k. Good luck ever going on holiday, buying a car etc. though.

Of course though the idea that the average person graduates college at 22 and walks into a well paying job is a fantasy. Only half of the 25-34 age group are college graduates and by definition half of the workers in the country are earning below the median salary with newer entrants into the labour force over-represented in lower income brackets.

Me personally I graduated college in 2009, at the age of 23 with a STEM degree. I spent 6 months trying to find ANY job, without success before I gave up and decided to go back and do a masters. I graduated from my masters in 2011 at the age of 25, about 20 grand in debt, and despite finishing top of my class it still took me 6 months to get a job. I got my first real job at 26, and it wasn't until I was 28 that I had payed off my college debt. And I was one of the lucky ones, most of my friends from school and college still aren't making decent money.

EDIT: While overall median weekly wage is 560 a week, median wage for the 25-29 age group is actually only 470 according to the CSO. Totally realistic for the average person to save over half their income for 8 years in order to save for a house deposit.

Dwarf.Shortage · 29-10-2020 1:56pm

IAmTheReign wrote: »

Do people on here actually believe that it's easy for someone to save 100k by the time they're 30?

Median gross income in Ireland is only around 35k a year. According to PWCs income tax calculator that gives you about 560 a week net.

Assuming you started saving at 22, in order to save 100k by the time they're 30 you actually need to save 240 euro a week, not 200. Say 250 a week for rent (assuming you don't mind living in a house share when you're 30), that would leave you a grand total of 70 quid a week for bills, food, transport costs and any discretionary spending. So yeah, if you graduated college at 22, walked into a job paying a median salary the minute you graduated, and lived like a hermit for 8 years you might just about save 100k. Good luck ever going on holiday, buying a car etc. though.

Of course though the idea that the average person graduates college at 22 and walks into a well paying job is a fantasy. Only half of the 25-34 age group are college graduates and by definition half of the workers in the country are earning below the median salary with newer entrants into the labour force over-represented in lower income brackets.

Me personally I graduated college in 2009, at the age of 23 with a STEM degree. I spent 6 months trying to find ANY job, without success before I gave up and decided to go back and do a masters. I graduated from my masters in 2011 at the age of 25, about 20 grand in debt, and despite finishing top of my class it still took me 6 months to get a job. I got my first real job at 26, and it wasn't until I was 28 that I had payed off my college debt. And I was one of the lucky ones, most of my friends from school and college still aren't making decent money.

EDIT: While overall median weekly wage is 560 a week, median wage for the 25-29 age group is actually only 470 according to the CSO. Totally realistic for the average person to save over half their income for 8 years in order to save for a house deposit.

You can expect the details of this to be ignored by the posters in question who will inform you they in fact saved 117% of their income between 22-30 whilst getting out of bed before they got into it as they had to find time to work 4 jobs.

The fact that house price were half the multiple of average earnings at the time will not be mentioned.

cnocbui · 29-10-2020 2:24pm

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

You can expect the details of this to be ignored by the posters in question who will inform you they in fact saved 117% of their income between 22-30 whilst getting out of bed before they got into it as they had to find time to work 4 jobs.

The fact that house price were half the multiple of average earnings at the time will not be mentioned.

The asking price of houses outside Dublin is 64% lower than in Dublin. If I were a median or lower wage earner in Dublin and wanted to buy, rather than rent my entire life, I would be thinking about moving to somewhere where housing was cheaper.

Is The Property Market Unfair to First Time Buyers?

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