Is The Property Market Unfair to First Time Buyers?

Dwarf.Shortage

Shoden wrote: »

Wow, your comprehension is poor. No one was questioning your personal circumstances or traits? Objectively the average person does not buy 30 properties in their lifetime, yet you managed to take that simple statement of fact as a personal slight. I for one will be viewing everything you say in this thread through the lens of the cognitive ability you just displayed.

I'm a particular fan of the use of all caps to drive the point home, I haven't seen that tactic in years.

Not since primary school in fact.

Idbatterim

Young people so screwed now, no doubt sf will have their chance next election, whether its all jut waffle or not, remains to be seen. But its a free shot at this stage. Sure look at the virus situation, the government found several magic money trees and have handled the situation appallingly...

brisan

jill_valentine wrote: »

Once again, nobody here ever said it was easy. The difference is, it was not impossible. It was possible to work hard enough, as you did, to close the gap.

I'll refer you to my above post using figures from Daft to illustrate it just no longer is, for all intents and purposes - no matter how many hours somebody works, it is not possible to bridge the gap between the buying power they're permitted and the properties available.

Again, it is no slight on you and the work you put in to point out the conditions you were able to buy in on no longer exist.

The fact you keep talking about "house" buying, and highlight a "second hand" house underlines the disconnect here - how many single FTBs do you think are expecting to buy houses in 2020? How many do you think expect to build new? On what land, with what PP, with what evidence of local need?

The 4k deposit we saved was approximately 10 months take home pay
it can still be done
Thousands of people who buy their first home every year are proof of this
It was and still is nearly impossible to buy a house as a single applicant ,for the obvious reason that your one salary is competing against two salaries
I do not remember anyone in my circle ever buying a house as a single person
Houses were cheaper in the 50sand 60s because on average only one person in the household worked
Once the civil service ban on married women working came into play then house price inflation took off
Why ??
Was it because the house was more valuable ?
No because the new price reflected what a couple with 2 incomes could afford
Houses will always sell for the max available not what they are reasonably worth






















?

timmyntc

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont doubt it was ever that " easy" but surely there would have bern nowhere near the sane kevels of outgoings then ? Like my parents bought the family home in dublin 14 in 1989 for 16k pounds. That property in same condition today , I reckon would be 325k euro. It was a total gut job and extension rebuild job, and im not talking decor from the 60 or 70's!

Like 16k in 89 must have been around the average industrial wage, the same house now in same derelict condition, would cost nearly ten times the average industrial wage!

Its very easy to sort out, government dont want too though, forca myriad pf reasons, thats very obvious at this stage ..

Is it very easy to sort out though?

Don't blame stuff on malice that can easily be chalked up to incompetence - government will not be government for long if housing crisis gets worse and worse, just look at the surge in SF voters.
Basically, I doubt this is intentional by govt. They just dont know how to/cant fix it.

Shoden

brisan wrote: »

The OP said circumstances are very different now that's what I was replying to
It is and always was very difficult to buy a house (except during the celtic tiger years )
Plus do not be so condescending
Its an ugly trait to have

My reply was about you having a childish caps lock hissyfit when someone mearly pointed out that the average person does not purchase 30 properties in their lives.

brisan

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont doubt it was ever that " easy" but surely there would have bern nowhere near the sane kevels of outgoings then ? Like my parents bought the family home in dublin 14 in 1989 for 16k pounds. That property in same condition today , I reckon would be 325k euro. It was a total gut job and extension rebuild job, and im not talking decor from the 60 or 70's!

Like 16k in 89 must have been around the average industrial wage, the same house now in same derelict condition, would cost nearly ten times the average industrial wage!

Its very easy to sort out, government dont want too though, forca myriad pf reasons, thats very obvious at this stage ..

They got one hell of a bargain

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/twenty-years-a-viewing-the-ups-and-downs-of-the-property-pages-1.939457

lainey_d_123

brisan wrote: »

My 3 kids all in their 30s own their own house (well mortgage )
They struggled as well but made sacrifices to do it
if people took a spend diary and noted every cent they spent in a month they would realize how much they waste
Do you need spotify ,netflix, gym membership
Do you need a takeaway latte every morning
Do you need to buy lunch out every day
Do you need a takaway every week
Do you need a car
Do you need the weekend away etc
Sacrifice is not easy ,hence the word

I've stopped spending money on anything but essentials due to the pandemic and you know what? It's a drop in the bloody ocean. Yes, I've saved a small amount of money from not buying the odd latte or takeaway lunch, but so what? The problem isn't the bit of money on those things, it's the massive amount of money on rent and transport.

When you need something like £60,000 for a deposit on a one-bed flat in a not-great area (this is London but I'm sure Dublin isn't too different), a £50 Ryanair flight or a new pair of shoes is pretty much irrelevant. You could forego every possible luxury for years and still be nowhere close.

brisan wrote: »

The 4k deposit we saved was approximately 10 months take home pay
it can still be done
Thousands of people who buy their first home every year are proof of this
It was and still is nearly impossible to buy a house as a single applicant ,for the obvious reason that your one salary is competing against two salaries
I do not remember anyone in my circle ever buying a house as a single person
Houses were cheaper in the 50sand 60s because on average only one person in the household worked
Once the civil service ban on married women working came into play then house price inflation took off
Why ??
Was it because the house was more valuable ?
No because the new price reflected what a couple with 2 incomes could afford
Houses will always sell for the max available not what they are reasonably worth

You're living in Fantasyland. I've saved every single spare penny for about the last 10 months because of the pandemic and I have about 1/6 of what I'd need for a deposit on a tiny flat. Not only that, but I earn quite a bit more than the average earner. The average earner would be lucky to manage to save half that, even if they bought nothing and went nowhere. Even if I did have a partner saving a similar amount, it would still take us 3+ years. To buy a one-bed flat. Earning far more than average.

brisan

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I've stopped spending money on anything but essentials due to the pandemic and you know what? It's a drop in the bloody ocean. Yes, I've saved a small amount of money from not buying the odd latte or takeaway lunch, but so what? The problem isn't the bit of money on those things, it's the massive amount of money on rent and transport.

When you need something like £60,000 for a deposit on a one-bed flat in a not-great area (this is London but I'm sure Dublin isn't too different), a £50 Ryanair flight or a new pair of shoes is pretty much irrelevant. You could forego every possible luxury for years and still be nowhere close.



You're living in Fantasyland. I've saved every single spare penny for about the last 10 months because of the pandemic and I have about 1/6 of what I'd need for a deposit on a tiny flat. Not only that, but I earn quite a bit more than the average earner. The average earner would be lucky to manage to save half that, even if they bought nothing and went nowhere. Even if I did have a partner saving a similar amount, it would still take us 3+ years. To buy a one-bed flat. Earning far more than average.

Lets say you take home 3500 a month
By 10 thats 35,000
Add 30,00 HTB thats 65,000
As I said as a single buyer it was always impossible to buy a house

lainey_d_123

brisan wrote: »

Lets say you take home 3500 a month
By 10 thats 35,000
Add 30,00 HTB thats 65,000
As I said as a single buyer it was always impossible to buy a house

What planet are you on?

I still don't take home that much, even after years of training and experience.

You do realise that most people can't just save their entire paycheck? They need to pay rent, bills, eat, get to work, and everything else.

What is this 30,000 'HTB'?

I don't even want a house - what I'm saying is even a flat is nearly out of reach.

brisan

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

What planet are you on?

I still don't take home that much, even after years of training and experience.

You do realise that most people can't just save their entire paycheck? They need to pay rent, bills, eat, get to work, and everything else.

What is this 30,000 'HTB'?

I don't even want a house - what I'm saying is even a flat is nearly out of reach.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/help-to-buy-incentive/how-much-can-you-claim.aspx

I thought you said you earned above average
If you are buying as a single applicant then as was always the case you have a very slim chance

lainey_d_123

brisan wrote: »

https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/help-to-buy-incentive/how-much-can-you-claim.aspx

I thought you said you earned above average
If you are buying as a single applicant then as was always the case you have a very slim chance

I do! The average wage for the UK is about 30K and I'm on nearly twice that! It seems that not only do you not understand the concept of 'living costs', but you also don't understand the concept of tax, NI and student loan deductions.

It was not always the case that a single applicant had a slim chance of buying a one-bed flat. Who do you think they were built for?

cruizer101

brisan wrote: »

If you are buying as a single applicant then as was always the case you have a very slim chance

I don't think thats right, I'm not saying it wasn't always harder for a single person but I don't think the difference was as significant.

In the early 90's I remember my parents looking for a mortgage and as I recall the banks would give 2.5 times primary income plus 1 times secondary income.

So for two people on 20k that would be 70k, vs 1 person on 20k it would be 50k, add in a deposit of 10k and it is 60k vs 80k, where as the equivalent today would be nearly double the amount.
As well as that there was far more situations where there was only a single salary coming in even for a couple.

So the disparity between single purchasers and couple purchasers is far greater today then it was a few decades ago.

brisan

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I do! The average wage for the UK is about 30K and I'm on nearly twice that! It seems that not only do you not understand the concept of 'living costs', but you also don't understand the concept of tax, NI and student loan deductions.

It was not always the case that a single applicant had a slim chance of buying a one-bed flat. Who do you think they were built for?

Sorry I have no idea of the British housing market or the average wage in Britain
One of my daughters did attend university in England for a year (Telford ) but no loan involved

timmyntc

brisan wrote: »

Lets say you take home 3500 a month
By 10 thats 35,000
Add 30,00 HTB thats 65,000
As I said as a single buyer it was always impossible to buy a house

To take home 3500 a month after tax you need to be earning almost 65/70K? Far above average wage
Also the idea that you can save 3500 a month - people have rent, bills, food etc to pay. No amount of scrimping and saving can save you that much.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I do! The average wage for the UK is about 30K and I'm on nearly twice that......

60k gross in UK doesn't net close to 3500/month?

brisan

timmyntc wrote: »

To take home 3500 a month after tax you need to be earning almost 65/70K? Far above average wage
Also the idea that you can save 3500 a month - people have rent, bills, food etc to pay. No amount of scrimping and saving can save you that much.

OP said she was on above average wage ,I did not realize she was British based
As I said these figures are based on a couple buying a house
You save one wage and live off the other
Moving back with parents to stop paying rent if an option is a good idea
My eldest girl did

timmyntc

timmyntc wrote: »

To take home 3500 a month after tax you need to be earning almost 65/70K? Far above average wage
Also the idea that you can save 3500 a month - people have rent, bills, food etc to pay. No amount of scrimping and saving can save you that much.

He said the amount they saved was 10 months take home pay.

Someone on 3500/month should be able to save 35k in 2 or 3 years IMO.

lainey_d_123

Augeo wrote: »

60k gross in UK doesn't net close to 3500/month?

Close, but not quite, for those of us with student loan repayments and pensions.

brisan

brisan wrote: »

OP said she was on above average wage ,I did not realize she was British based
As I said these figures are based on a couple buying a house
You save one wage and live off the other
Moving back with parents to stop paying rent if an option is a good idea
My eldest girl did

In the UK ......Earn £60,000 in 2020/2021 and you'll take home £43,444. This means £3,620 in your pocket a month.

From a UK tax calculator.

lainey_d_123

brisan wrote: »

OP said she was on above average wage ,I did not realize she was British based
As I said these figures are based on a couple buying a house
You save one wage and live off the other
Moving back with parents to stop paying rent if an option is a good idea
My eldest girl did

But 'above average' could have meant 40K or less (I never actually said I was on nearly double the average), so I'm not sure where you even got your numbers from.

I hate how it always comes down to 'move back in with parents'. Not all of us have the option. It should not be necessary for grown adults to live with their parents if they want any chance of a house.

lainey_d_123

Augeo wrote: »

In the UK ......Earn £60,000 in 2020/2021 and you'll take home £43,444. This means £3,620 in your pocket a month.

From a UK tax calculator.

Not if you have student loan repayments and pay into a pension scheme. And I don't earn quite as much as that, so my take home is less.

brisan

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

But 'above average' could have meant 40K or less, so I'm not sure where you even got your numbers from.

I hate how it always comes down to 'move back in with parents'. Not all of us have the option. It should not be necessary for grown adults to live with their parents if they want any chance of a house.

Why not
If you want to buy a house-apartment-flat you have to make sacrifices ,you always did and you always will
I lived with my parents until I got married as did my wife with hers
Granted we got married at 22 and had our house 6 months before that
My eldest girl was living with her now husband when she got engaged
They both moved home for 2 years to save for a deposit and a wedding
To my generation its having your cake and eating it ,to others its their entitlement
Have a look at the saving for a mortgage thread
Plenty in there making sacrifices to buy a house

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Not if you have student loan repayments and pay into a pension scheme. And I don't earn quite as much as that, so my take home is less.

You've a student loan? You get 4 years 3rd level in Ireland for reasonable money. It's free if your folks arent well off.

lainey_d_123

brisan wrote: »

Why not
If you want to buy a house-apartment-flat you have to make sacrifices ,you always did and you always will
I lived with my parents until I got married as did my wife with hers
Granted we got married at 22 and had our house 6 months before that
My eldest girl was living with her now husband when she got engaged
They both moved home for 2 years to save for a deposit and a wedding
To my generation its having your cake and eating it ,to others its their entitlement
Have a look at the saving for a mortgage thread
Plenty in there making sacrifices to buy a house

Jesus Christ, not everyone CAN do that. Some people's parents are dead, some people come from abusive homes or their parents live in the middle of nowhere away from any work, or they have other issues which make it impossible.

Perhaps the 'entitled' people are the ones who live rent-free with Mammy and Daddy for years getting their dinners made for them and being able to keep all their money? Seems like a very cushy, easy life for me, and I'd love to be able to avail of it. Do you think I enjoy spending half my paycheck on rent and bills?

The pure hilarity of someone who bought at 22 lecturing a 35-year-old who has spent years struggling in poverty, living in horrible damp shared flats until age 33, and is still way off buying even now things are better, about 'entitlement'.

Padre_Pio

brisan wrote: »

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT
I have a decent leaving cert,
Qualified as an electrician
...
Out of that now as I am close to retirement
No one handed us anything ,just hard work ,and a bit of luck and common sense

brisan wrote: »

Why not
If you want to buy a house-apartment-flat you have to make sacrifices ,you always did and you always will
I lived with my parents until I got married as did my wife with hers
Granted we got married at 22 and had our house 6 months before that
My eldest girl was living with her now husband when she got engaged
They both moved home for 2 years to save for a deposit and a wedding
To my generation its having your cake and eating it ,to others its their entitlement
Have a look at the saving for a mortgage thread
Plenty in there making sacrifices to buy a house

Yeahh, I'm fairly sure your experiences are nowhere near representative of people in this thread.

If you're near retirement, then you bought a house in the 80's. So your experience of saving and buying your first house is 40 years out of date. Not to denigrate your achievements, it's fantastic what you've accomplished. I just think it's dismissive to copy/paste your experiences to everyone on the thread.

Fair play to your daughter and fiance for moving home (to their respective houses, or the home house, or one of your investment houses?) but that's not possible for most people who are forced by nature of their work and concentration of employers in cities, to live in high rent areas.

lainey_d_123

Augeo wrote: »

You've a student loan? You get 4 years 3rd level in Ireland for reasonable money. It's free if your folks arent well off.

I retrained after 30 because I wasn't getting anywhere with my initial career choice. The majority of people my age here in London are still paying off student loans, or have only recently finished, so the figures given on those salary calculators don't represent reality for most.

Right..... I suppose if your first career choice doesn't get you anywhere then things can be challenging. If you were working at your current gig from 22 or 23 you'd be flying presumably.

jill_valentine

Augeo wrote: »

Right..... I suppose if your first career choice doesn't get you anywhere then things can be challenging. If you were working at your current gig from 22 or 23 you'd be flying presumably.

How many people do you think worked their current gig from 22 or 23 inclusive of 2007-2010?

lainey_d_123

Augeo wrote: »

Right..... I suppose if your first career choice doesn't get you anywhere then things can be challenging. If you were working at your current gig from 22 or 23 you'd be flying presumably.

Yeah, it's as if there wasn't this whole financial crisis thing which wiped out opportunities in entire industries. If only I'd had my crystal ball when I was 17 and had known what to pick, eh?

jill_valentine

jill_valentine wrote: »

How many people do you think worked their current gig from 22 or 23 inclusive of 2007-2010?

Myself and most of my peers....... Loads of folk not in the building game or property.

Engineers, accountants, nurses, teachers, civil servants