Is The Property Market Unfair to First Time Buyers?

brisan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Of course assuming your partner is on average wage or better, which may not be the case. Plus needing 2 years continuous, full time employment between you. Throw in any sort of sickness payment, health issue, mat leave etc, and you're back at square one.

If the average house is x2 the average wage, then even a basic, crap house is usually out of reach for most people.

Its not out of reach
It took me 35 years to buy a house in an area I always wanted to live in
it took 3 house purchases to get there
You dont buy your first house in Dalkey unless you are mega rich
People need to lower their expectations
I read some of the self entitled crap on the threads about new housing estates and I just shake my head
People living a 5 minute walk to a DART station and complain they cannot park their 2 cars in the driveway
Live by your paycheck

brisan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

The commute from Sligo to Cork is a bit much for me:rolleyes:

Well if you moved from Sligo where house prices are cheap to Cork ,where house prices are a lot dearer than you knew what you were letting yourself in for
its like people moving to Dublin and complaining about the price of houses

Dwarf.Shortage

brisan wrote: »

Well if you moved from Sligo where house prices are cheap to Cork ,where house prices are a lot dearer than you knew what you were letting yourself in for
its like people moving to Dublin and complaining about the price of houses

Have you considered they might be in a line of work only available in a city?

brisan

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

I am at home and have been for a year, also lucky enough to be in a well remunerated profession so by late 2021 I will have all my ducks in a row to be able to spend 325-340k as a single applicant. I’ve taken on cash work evenings and weekends to put 100-150 into my hand and keep me away from ATMs.

But this whole process has just opened my eyes to how narrow the goalposts are. If I couldn’t live at home or wasn’t pulling a very high salary for my age I wouldn’t have a hope.

And I know enough people who don’t fit this “won’t make the sacrifices” prototype that I get annoyed when I see them dismissed as the “unhoused because they spend it all on iPhones and avacados” crowd.

They are unhoused because houses are impossible to afford for those on average incomes, often even as dual applicants. Whether that has always been the case or not it is the case now and that is the argument I have been making since I got involved in this thread.

I don’t expect anyone on an average income to be able to buy a house wherever they want to live, but I will argue against the nonsense reasons put forward as to why they can’t.

My 3 kids all in their 30s own their own house (well mortgage )
They struggled as well but made sacrifices to do it
if people took a spend diary and noted every cent they spent in a month they would realize how much they waste
Do you need spotify ,netflix, gym membership
Do you need a takeaway latte every morning
Do you need to buy lunch out every day
Do you need a takaway every week
Do you need a car
Do you need the weekend away etc
Sacrifice is not easy ,hence the word

brisan

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

I am at home and have been for a year, also lucky enough to be in a well remunerated profession so by late 2021 I will have all my ducks in a row to be able to spend 325-340k as a single applicant. I’ve taken on cash work evenings and weekends to put 100-150 into my hand and keep me away from ATMs.

But this whole process has just opened my eyes to how narrow the goalposts are. If I couldn’t live at home or wasn’t pulling a very high salary for my age I wouldn’t have a hope.

And I know enough people who don’t fit this “won’t make the sacrifices” prototype that I get annoyed when I see them dismissed as the “unhoused because they spend it all on iPhones and avacados” crowd.

They are unhoused because houses are impossible to afford for those on average incomes, often even as dual applicants. Whether that has always been the case or not it is the case now and that is the argument I have been making since I got involved in this thread.

I don’t expect anyone on an average income to be able to buy a house wherever they want to live, but I will argue against the nonsense reasons put forward as to why they can’t.

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

Have you considered they might be in a line of work only available in a city?

I have ,so they cut their cloth to measure
I am sure there are cheaper properties for sale in Cork
Not everybody can afford to live in Blackrock

https://www.myhome.ie/residential/results?localities=781|780|769&region=737&maxprice=200000

Padre_Pio

brisan wrote: »

Well if you moved from Sligo where house prices are cheap to Cork ,where house prices are a lot dearer than you knew what you were letting yourself in for
its like people moving to Dublin and complaining about the price of houses

Woe is me looking to improve my situation by moving to a city with better employment prospects. I should have stayed working in Tescos instead

jrosen

Peoples standard of living are higher these days, so I think in turn it leads people to believe they "need" certain things as basics. I think it stunts the ability to sacrifice and save.

There will always be people who will never be able to afford to buy their own house. There will always be those who will. Its never been any different and it never will be.

Heebie

Bluefoam wrote:

Yes it's difficult, but it can be done... Is it fair? Probably not... But if it's what you want, get on with it... Just get it done, however long it takes. If you want other things, then put resources into them.

Sometimes it's not that simple. I'm on my 50's. A mortgage can only run up until after 70... severely limiting the mortgage term, which in turn limits how much I can borrow.
Employment wasn't lucrative until my 40's, so I had nearly no savings at all... and need to pay as much into my pension as possible, while also trying to save for a down-payment and paying extortionate Dublin rent.
I did manage really this year to finally find a place I really liked, in the price range I could afford. My offer was accepted... I had finance handled etc....
Then The bank I had approval from told me that I was spending too LITTLE on a one-bedroom place... and because it was not expensive enough that I would have to come up with another 20 grand to put down on it. (Yes... not because it was too much... because it was too little)

So.. I went to another bank, for approval, was moving forward... when I went to get mortgage insurance, I was told, "you're diabetic... and... Covid 19" (literally... Not kidding or exaggerating) by EVERY insurer that underwrites in Ireland. (There aren't that many) and the bank absolutely would not even consider the idea is a mortgage insurance waiver... even though that's the normal thing when someone can't get insurance...

So I lost the place I really wanted... and can't even look again until insurance companies get their doodoo together.

So, being an older first-time buyer take gets you royally screwed over.

I see sheep

brisan wrote: »

My 3 kids all in their 30s own their own house (well mortgage )
They struggled as well but made sacrifices to do it
if people took a spend diary and noted every cent they spent in a month they would realize how much they waste
Do you need spotify ,netflix, gym membership
Do you need a takeaway latte every morning
Do you need to buy lunch out every day
Do you need a takaway every week
Do you need a car
Do you need the weekend away etc
Sacrifice is not easy ,hence the word

You forgot to mention avocados

Bluefoam

I hate to say it... and it may not be fair, and I don't support the nature of it, but:

House prices are high because people are buying at that price, supply cannot beat damand... not at the moment anyway. There is affordability, becuase the houses are being bought at the market value (wheather that rises or falls). It is a genuine stuggle. My own purchase was a version of hell I never want to revisit. But there are sacrifices to be made to get there and a monumental effort to get to a level where you can compete with people who just have more money...

The key issue is under supply. Also, a huge amount of people are staying put, even since the last recession... people are not upgrading (at least not in large quantities), and downsizing isn't always financially beneficial, so the market is constrained by new build... which is further constrained by the fact that large developments are being bought up by PRS and by the government for social housing...

While I am a socialist at heart, I don't believe the current system is working... More affordable housing is required and a more creative ideas on what a home is need to be. Scandanavian and Central European countries seem to have put some effort into the same issues, with allot of success.

Heres Johnny

Company I work for has 70 employees in ireland. Big distribution of incomes but I bet we are fairly representative of what's going on around the country. The median wage earner is probably someone on the lower end of the 25 senior technicians and the upper end of the administrators. So somewhere below 40k and above 35k.

Managing director (owner) big big income from the company

Sales/project managers/area managers/department managers/General manager x 8 are on between 50k and 80k plus car plus expenses. These people can buy houses wherever they want in the country and contribute to pension maybe buy an investment property and are pretty comfortable. Generally aged between late 30s and mid 50s in this bracket but 1 lady is early 30s and has just bought a house in Nice area of Dublin. They also have all the responsibility in the company to get things done.

Senior technicians/installers/electricians x 25 are on about 40k-45k basic plus van but can bump wages up significantly. These guys also own their houses and are a bit older and in the game a while. Most of this group are in their 50s and are paid hourly.

Admin/accounts staff x 8 are on about 30-35k.
Arrive at work at 9 am and leave on the dot at 5 and don't really have much responsibility and are desk jockeys. Easy work really. All older than average and bought houses years ago.

Junior technicians/installers x 25 are on about 25k a year but cam bump it up with overtime. Big age range here, young guys starting out and older guys that don't want the hassle or responsibility. Won't be buying houses in their salaries because they're forever looking for advances on wages and staff loans but you can be full sure the young guys have the latest phones / buy lunch in shop every day/ went to pub every Friday after work pre pandemic.

kippy

Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »

I understand all of this. My issue is with people who ignore all of the structural factors that go against FTBs on average incomes and instead paint them as spendthrifts who could buy a house if they wanted it enough.

For many people it is genuinely undoable.

As has always and will always be the case pretty much globally for certain sections of society

Donald Trump

brisan wrote: »

Swords is 35mins by bus to the quays


https://www.eirebus.ie/swords-express

Yes but that is Swords Express which uses the Port Tunnel. That is why I explicitly mentioned "Regular Dublin bus". Swords express is not regular Dublin bus

Bluefoam

Heebie wrote: »

Sometimes it's not that simple. I'm on my 50's. A mortgage can only run up until after 70... severely limiting the mortgage term, which in turn limits how much I can borrow.
Employment wasn't lucrative until my 40's, so I had nearly no savings at all... and need to pay as much into my pension as possible, while also trying to save for a down-payment and paying extortionate Dublin rent.
I did manage really this year to finally find a place I really liked, in the price range I could afford. My offer was accepted... I had finance handled etc....
Then The bank I had approval from told me that I was spending too LITTLE on a one-bedroom place... and because it was not expensive enough that I would have to come up with another 20 grand to put down on it. (Yes... not because it was too much... because it was too little)

So.. I went to another bank, for approval, was moving forward... when I went to get mortgage insurance, I was told, "you're diabetic... and... Covid 19" (literally... Not kidding or exaggerating) by EVERY insurer that underwrites in Ireland. (There aren't that many) and the bank absolutely would not even consider the idea is a mortgage insurance waiver... even though that's the normal thing when someone can't get insurance...

So I lost the place I really wanted... and can't even look again until insurance companies get their doodoo together.

So, being an older first-time buyer take gets you royally screwed over.

Genuinely sorry to hear that. While I didn't have the problems with insurance, I did have the same issue with age an term of the loan... my purchase took 21 months in total, in that time I had to keep reapplying and as one year went to the next they reduced the term of my loan and the whole affordability became an issue.

I hope you manage a way to resolve the insurance issue and it all works out well.

cannotlogin

I'm single, in my 30s and still haven't bought my own house but intent to in the next year or so. If prices come down and my money goes further great, but if not I will be buying anyway.

A lot of it comes down to choice. I want a house in Dublin & only certain parts, therefore I have to wait longer. I could compromise and buy somewhere else but I don't want to.

I've also spend what some may consider unnecessary money on a lot of travel, social life etc but would consider a brand new car a waste of money etc.

Others made their own choices to do what works for them. It's all about compromise but to me life is for living and enjoying it was always more important than having a house but no fun.

Zero ever spent on avocado toast!

brisan

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Woe is me looking to improve my situation by moving to a city with better employment prospects. I should have stayed working in Tescos instead

Not saying that ,what I am saying is that you knew house prices were dearer in cork so you cant complain its harder to buy in Cork than Sligo
There is a reason houses are dearer in Cork and in Dublin and cheaper in Sligo and Cavan
So you buy what you can afford and slowly move up the ladder

brisan

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Company I work for has 70 employees in ireland. Big distribution of incomes but I bet we are fairly representative of what's going on around the country. The median wage earner is probably someone on the lower end of the 25 senior technicians and the upper end of the administrators. So somewhere below 40k and above 35k.

Managing director (owner) big big income from the company

Sales/project managers/area managers/department managers/General manager x 8 are on between 50k and 80k plus car plus expenses. These people can buy houses wherever they want in the country and contribute to pension maybe buy an investment property and are pretty comfortable. Generally aged between late 30s and mid 50s in this bracket but 1 lady is early 30s and has just bought a house in Nice area of Dublin. They also have all the responsibility in the company to get things done.

Senior technicians/installers/electricians x 25 are on about 40k-45k basic plus van but can bump wages up significantly. These guys also own their houses and are a bit older and in the game a while. Most of this group are in their 50s and are paid hourly.

Admin/accounts staff x 8 are on about 30-35k.
Arrive at work at 9 am and leave on the dot at 5 and don't really have much responsibility and are desk jockeys. Easy work really. All older than average and bought houses years ago.

Junior technicians/installers x 25 are on about 25k a year but cam bump it up with overtime. Big age range here, young guys starting out and older guys that don't want the hassle or responsibility. Won't be buying houses in their salaries because they're forever looking for advances on wages and staff loans but you can be full sure the young guys have the latest phones / buy lunch in shop every day/ went to pub every Friday after work pre pandemic.

As an electrician myself that's a very poor wage to be on
Start in our place is high 70s rising within 2 years to mid 80s for shift work

brisan

Donald Trump wrote: »

Yes but that is Swords Express which uses the Port Tunnel. That is why I explicitly mentioned "Regular Dublin bus". Swords express is not regular Dublin bus

its a bus service that runs regularly that you can you a leapcard or a taxsaver ticket on
No difference to Dublin Bus

Donald Trump

brisan wrote: »

its a bus service that runs regularly that you can you a leapcard or a taxsaver ticket on
No difference to Dublin Bus

Except that it's more expensive. And won't let you off at Drumcondra or Dorset St along the way because it uses the tunnel.

Actually, I looked at the timetables anyway. From start to finish, plenty of routes in the morning for going into work are 50 minutes end-to-end! (which is what I guessed)

https://www.swordsexpress.com/Timetable/

Idbatterim

BrokenArrows wrote: »

The question is a bit stupid. It has nothing to do with being "fair".

Its like asking "are we unfair to people with less money" or in the jobs market "are unfair to people with less experience".

Its a very simple situation. Salaries have not kept pace with inflation for decades and house prices have surpassed inflation for decades which leaves us with an unfortunate gap between salaries and house prices.

There is no quick fix. Its all about supply and demand.
Unfortunately those that are capable of creating supply know that its in their best interests not to build too much and the government couldnt organise a pissup in a brewery so we are where we are.

This hits the nail on the head, the last paragraph is spot on! The government are now buying nearly FIFTY percent of new builds this year, then how many go to build to rent? The situation is a scandal !

brisan

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Company I work for has 70 employees in ireland. Big distribution of incomes but I bet we are fairly representative of what's going on around the country. The median wage earner is probably someone on the lower end of the 25 senior technicians and the upper end of the administrators. So somewhere below 40k and above 35k.

Managing director (owner) big big income from the company

Sales/project managers/area managers/department managers/General manager x 8 are on between 50k and 80k plus car plus expenses. These people can buy houses wherever they want in the country and contribute to pension maybe buy an investment property and are pretty comfortable. Generally aged between late 30s and mid 50s in this bracket but 1 lady is early 30s and has just bought a house in Nice area of Dublin. They also have all the responsibility in the company to get things done.

Senior technicians/installers/electricians x 25 are on about 40k-45k basic plus van but can bump wages up significantly. These guys also own their houses and are a bit older and in the game a while. Most of this group are in their 50s and are paid hourly.

Admin/accounts staff x 8 are on about 30-35k.
Arrive at work at 9 am and leave on the dot at 5 and don't really have much responsibility and are desk jockeys. Easy work really. All older than average and bought houses years ago.

Junior technicians/installers x 25 are on about 25k a year but cam bump it up with overtime. Big age range here, young guys starting out and older guys that don't want the hassle or responsibility. Won't be buying houses in their salaries because they're forever looking for advances on wages and staff loans but you can be full sure the young guys have the latest phones / buy lunch in shop every day/ went to pub every Friday after work pre pandemic.

Crikey you can earn 30k plus as a 39 hour a week production worker in a factory
Up to 60k if you do shift

Heres Johnny

brisan wrote: »

As an electrician myself that's a very poor wage to be on
Start in our place is high 70s rising within 2 years to mid 80s for shift work

Mid 80s is over 40 euro an hour. Who is paying that for electricians wage? Electrician hourly rate is a little over half of that, 22 euro an hour or something.

brisan

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Mid 80s is over 40 euro an hour. Who is paying that for electricians wage? Electrician hourly rate is a little over half of that, 22 euro an hour or something.

That's for wiring houses and factories day in and day out
You can train to wire a house in 6 months
Maintenance is where all the good Electricians -fitters end up
Much better money and conditions but its nearly always shift work
I know maintenance electricians in their 50s who have never wired a house ,can do it in theory but no money in that end of the game

Shoden

People in this thread coming across very foolish. Some people are more financially prudent than others regardless of ages and generations.

Idiots of every generation give out about the younger generations being x, y, and z since roman times. They're too idiotic to see that it's always been thus.

thomas 123

I think the property market is a bit of a spit roast really,

On one end you have the vultures/big business buying up places to hold and rent and later sell then on the other you have councils buying up 10+% of estates for social housing tenants.

We are the idiots who sign away the rest of our lives to pay back the banks.

Idbatterim

thomas 123 wrote: »

I think the property market is a bit of a spit roast really,

On one end you have the vultures/big business buying up places to hold and rent and later sell then on the other you have councils buying up 10+% of estates for social housing tenants.

We are the idiots who sign away the rest of our lives to pay back the banks.

renting out entire apartment blocks, to give away for nothing, while you or I would pay 2k a month for a one bed! like here... these apartments are now long finished and the council paying 2k a month for one bed, 2500 for a 2 bed and 3000 for a 3 bed...

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/south-dublin-council-targets-luxury-scheme-for-social-housing-1.3926235

or you want a great laugh? just read this below! LOL! LOL!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-city-council-seeks-to-use-docklands-tower-block-for-social-housing-1.4393441?mode=amp

thomas 123

Idbatterim wrote: »

renting out entire apartment blocks, to give away for nothing, while you or I would pay 2k a month for a one bed! like here... these apartments are now long finished and the council paying 2k a month for one bed, 2500 for a 2 bed and 3000 for a 3 bed...

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/south-dublin-council-targets-luxury-scheme-for-social-housing-1.3926235

or you want a great laugh? just read this below! LOL! LOL!

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/dublin-city-council-seeks-to-use-docklands-tower-block-for-social-housing-1.4393441?mode=amp

I’ve often considered packing in the job and going on the dole to claim hap - I wonder what the “ bitta sacrifice” brigade will say In 10 years time when we look back at the data and see stats like the average age of first time parents or worse the average pension savings

Idbatterim

thomas 123 wrote: »

I’ve often considered packing in the job and going on the dole to claim hap - I wonder what the “ bitta sacrifice” brigade will say In 10 years time when we look back at the data and see stats like the average age of first time parents or worse the average pension savings

this is the reality, there are actually free luxury prime location apartments being given away and this is going to ramp up exponentially. Here lies the problem, unless you are a single mother with kids to exploit and show up in a garda station or on the list for over a decade, you are fcuked! particularly as a single male! and nobody could have foreseen that the situation would become impossible for many workers, and mostly because councils have failed so much, they are buying up insanely expensive property, to give away for free, paid for you by you, who couldnt afford to rent what they give away. This championed by the likes of RTE etc... pathetic! the chickens are going to come home to roost very quickly, sure FG lost a load of seats, during a boom, mainly on the housing front and it hadnt even started, compared to where its going to be at come next election time!

HerrKuehn

Heres Johnny wrote: »

Sales/project managers/area managers/department managers/General manager x 8 are on between 50k and 80k plus car plus expenses. These people can buy houses wherever they want in the country and contribute to pension maybe buy an investment property and are pretty comfortable.

I think you are wildly overestimating the standard of living someone on 80k can have.

Vieira82

Idbatterim wrote: »

this is the reality, there are actually free luxury prime location apartments being given away and this is going to ramp up exponentially. Here lies the problem, unless you are a single mother with kids to exploit and show up in a garda station or on the list for over a decade, you are fcuked! particularly as a single male! and nobody could have foreseen that the situation would become impossible for many workers, and mostly because councils have failed so much, they are buying up insanely expensive property, to give away for free, paid for you by you, who couldnt afford to rent what they give away. This championed by the likes of RTE etc... pathetic! the chickens are going to come home to roost very quickly, sure FG lost a load of seats, during a boom, mainly on the housing front and it hadnt even started, compared to where its going to be at come next election time!

It's the joys of the free market? As some have pointed out. Councils should be building homes directly not buying from developers. This situation is absolutely ridiculous and a money sink for councils!

Obviously it would be way cheaper to:
- Hire people to build an apartment block
- Build it at the cost of the building materials

Instead we have this absurd situation! I know from a close person that developers try everything to scam local councils. Local council employees have to have a huge degree of cold blood and attention as if there's a gap to be exploited the developers will. I know for a fact some even coercively show up in council offices to try and "persuade" council employees of what they want. Some shove them away, others don't...

Another thing that needs to end too is the way council houses are awarded. I know also of people thay got awarded a house and some refuse! "oh i don't like it, I don't like the location"

Simply put if you're on the housing list and you're offered a place, if you refuse it then you're out of the housing list. Unless of course it's a completely unfit for purpose house, but by the article above we can see that's not the case...