New Building Control Regs

Poor Uncle Tom · 18-08-2015 10:39pm

stickybookmark wrote: »

Apparently not...

I did say....

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

If it's a new house your solicitor will need certification to register title of your property,

S.I 483 of 2012 (2)

Part 3 section 15 (1) (b)

It is my experience that when referring to a dwelling house the legal opinions referred to will not be issued by the solicitors until they have the required assurances include the Certificate of Compliance with planning permissions and Building Regulations being discussed here.

You may be mixing up the knock-on chain of certification.

stickybookmark · 18-08-2015 10:49pm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I did say....

S.I 483 of 2012 (2)

Part 3 section 15 (1) (b)

It is my experience that when referring to a dwelling house the legal opinions referred to will not be issued by the solicitors until they have the required assurances include the Certificate of Compliance with planning permissions and Building Regulations being discussed here.

You may be mixing up the knock-on chain of certification.

Are you sure that when registering a new build with the Land registry that a solicitor has to be involved at all (if no mortgage)?

Poor Uncle Tom · 18-08-2015 11:00pm

stickybookmark wrote: »

Are you sure that when registering a new build with the Land registry that a solicitor has to be involved at all (if no mortgage)?

A solicitor does not have to be involved, however they usually are and (again in my experience) where a bank is involved in loaning funds for the purchase of property they will insist that a solicitor is involved.

Poor Uncle Tom · 19-08-2015 7:01pm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

A solicitor does not have to be involved, however they usually are and (again in my experience) where a bank is involved in loaning funds for the purchase of property they will insist that a solicitor is involved.

Just to clarify, a solicitor does not have to carry out the registration application, however as part of the process legal opinions are required which has to be carried out by either a solicitor or a barrister, therefore a solicitor does not have to be involved, but either a solicitor or barrister has to be involved.

S.I 483 of 2012 is very clear on this.

theirishlad · 17-09-2015 11:50am

As off the 1st of September you can opt out of having a assigned certifier. U must opt out at commencement notice stage.
Some people say u should get it certified but just to let yas know u can opt out, not getting into if u should or shouldn't

sydthebeat · 17-09-2015 11:59am

theirishlad wrote: »

As off the 1st of September you can opt out of having a assigned certifier. U must opt out at commencement notice stage.
Some people say u should get it certified but just to let yas know u can opt out, not getting into if u should or shouldn't

the banks will still make you "get it certified" if youre using a mortgage to build

mickdw · 17-09-2015 12:12pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the banks will still make you "get it certified" if youre using a mortgage to build

Are you saying the banks are insisting on assigned certifier or simply the old system of professional with indemnity cover supervising and issuing cert of compliance.
I not sure the banks are too aware tbh.
I'm involved in build currently that were commenced prior to march 14 and went for mortgage approval much later. All bank wanted was same certs signed and proof of indemnity insurance. I thought they may have been looking for assigned certifier as they were not to know commencement details at that stage.

stickybookmark · 17-09-2015 12:12pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the banks will still make you "get it certified" if youre using a mortgage to build

Yeah but that's via the bank's own separate certification system - not via the BCMS AC system

sydthebeat · 17-09-2015 12:21pm

mickdw wrote: »

Are you saying the banks are insisting on assigned certifier or simply the old system of professional with indemnity cover supervising and issuing cert of compliance.
I not sure the banks are too aware tbh.
I'm involved in build currently that were commenced prior to march 14 and went for mortgage approval much later. All bank wanted was same certs signed and proof of indemnity insurance. I thought they may have been looking for assigned certifier as they were not to know commencement details at that stage.

no im not saying the banks will insist on the assigned certifier system, im just saying that you may not be able to choose not to "get it certified" if your using a mortgage.

theirishlad · 17-09-2015 12:21pm

Banks will not make u have assigned certifier NO...
They will still want certs to say work is done but they have wanted this for years and year. Assigned certifier is totally different and more expensive

Strolling Bones · 17-09-2015 12:30pm

The local authoritys will still seek design documents at Commencemt Notice.
That is new - compared with prior to SI 9 2014.
Exacty what this means in parctice remains to be seen.
Some may simply resubmit the planning drawings + BER certs calcs and see what happens.
Will LA's insist on more detailed techical working drawings and specifications ?
The new (realxed) regaulations provide for this.

Gumbo · 21-09-2015 1:27pm

Strolling Bones wrote: »

The local authoritys will still seek design documents at Commencemt Notice.
That is new - compared with prior to SI 9 2014.
Exacty what this means in parctice remains to be seen.
Some may simply resubmit the planning drawings + BER certs calcs and see what happens.
Will LA's insist on more detailed techical working drawings and specifications ?
The new (realxed) regaulations provide for this.

I will be.

Strolling Bones · 21-09-2015 2:01pm

kceire wrote: »

I will be.

thought so :cool:

gooner99 · 21-09-2015 2:07pm

kceire wrote: »

I will be.

Kceire. From what I've read you've been very thorough with building control and inspections. I wonder what the rest of the Country are doing. I see a couple of houses going up in my neck of the woods (started this Year) without any air-tightness measures and hole in the wall vents. That's only what I've seen and wouldn't be knowledgeable to say if other parts are being overlooked. So looks like it's may not be uniform everywhere.

galwaytt · 21-09-2015 2:23pm

gooner99 wrote: »

Kceire. From what I've read you've been very thorough with building control and inspections. I wonder what the rest of the Country are doing. I see a couple of houses going up in my neck of the woods (started this Year) without any air-tightness measures and hole in the wall vents. That's only what I've seen and wouldn't be knowledgeable to say if other parts are being overlooked. So looks like it's may not be uniform everywhere.

...it isn't even uniform within the same LA, never mind across several..........

mickdw · 21-09-2015 2:28pm

Yes even under the assigned certifier system as being operated, Im seeing first hand here in Mayo that self builders are STILL issuing drawings that can only be considered sketches to the trades for pricing with little by the way of additional detail showing up throughout the build. I would handle some work for a Blocklaying contractor and given that these projects would have foundations complete at the stage we see these drawings, it is clear that the Engineers involved only sit down and produce details when requested. I can therefore only assume that Building Control in Mayo are accepting very basic drawings at commencement stage - and thats under the full certification regime.

When you then consider that the same Building Control Authority were inspecting about 1 in 8 new builds since about 2008 where they would request building drawings, Provisional BER, Ventilation details, and Part M compliance details, it is difficult to see that the certification system would have made any difference to building practices.

The only difference I can see is a drop off in standards, less certifiers, covering more area with zero availability to visit site at any reasonable notice and poor attention to detail by the larger Engineering firms when dealing with housing.

Gumbo · 21-09-2015 2:52pm

gooner99 wrote: »

Kceire. From what I've read you've been very thorough with building control and inspections. I wonder what the rest of the Country are doing. I see a couple of houses going up in my neck of the woods (started this Year) without any air-tightness measures and hole in the wall vents. That's only what I've seen and wouldn't be knowledgeable to say if other parts are being overlooked. So looks like it's may not be uniform everywhere.

Obviously I cannot comment on other LA's but I do know that Dublin are leading the charge with regards to inspection procedures and how we do things. I know for a fact my inspection reports are being looked at by DOE heads and being used as examples.

But in fairness we are biggest and busiest BCA in the country so we have the scope to be the Guinea pigs even if we don't have the staff!

Gumbo · 21-09-2015 2:53pm

galwaytt wrote: »

...it isn't even uniform within the same LA, never mind across several..........

More info please.
By PM of you want

Fridayfun · 06-10-2015 7:42pm

Hi there. At bit clueless to all these building regulations. Looking at a house at the mo that's partially built, up as far as wall plate level. It's been left this way since 2009. Owner applied successfully for extension of planning permission. Do the new regulations apply to this house?

Gumbo · 06-10-2015 10:49pm

Fridayfun wrote: »

Hi there. At bit clueless to all these building regulations. Looking at a house at the mo that's partially built, up as far as wall plate level. It's been left this way since 2009. Owner applied successfully for extension of planning permission. Do the new regulations apply to this house?

Contact your local Building Control Inspector, if they have an existing Commencement Notice on file, they may allow continuation of this or they may ask you to re-submit. You will only get opinions here, and you will end up having to still call the Section to get an answer.

mevinbull · 26-10-2015 8:50am

Some info if possible please
I have just being granted planning , during the planning process we thought we would have to budget in the build for an assigned certifier to satisfy the building legislation, now I see that we can opt out of this process but will a bank lend to us and will we be able to insure the house once finished ?

sydthebeat · 26-10-2015 9:33am

mevinbull wrote: »

Some info if possible please
I have just being granted planning , during the planning process we thought we would have to budget in the build for an assigned certifier to satisfy the building legislation, now I see that we can opt out of this process but will a bank lend to us and will we be able to insure the house once finished ?

The banks will still insist on a professional inspecting the build. Basically were back to situation we were in pre 2014.

You will also however have to get building regulation compliant drawings and documents produced to be submitted with your commencement notice. Planning drawings will not do.

MizMix · 16-12-2015 10:49pm

Hi All, we were all set to build over a year ago but ended up at an board plenala. Finally through that process with planning and find out now we can opt out....however is it better to stick with it? We had already agreed a price with the arch we were happy with....I presume the advantages are stricter inspections/compliance and responsibility if something goes wrong? I'm not sure I see any reason to opt out aside from saving a small amount? I don't think builders here had really priced it into their quotes so they're not going to price it out as such if we opt out...

galwaytt · 17-12-2015 10:43am

...to be honest, if the quotes are that old you're going to have to ask them to requote anyway to allow for current costs.

And if you're opting out of the DC/AC arrangement, just bear in mind, who's standing over the quality of what you get - the answer is : You.

If you're happy to inspect/sign off etc and assume 'quality control' - knock yourself out.

stickybookmark · 17-12-2015 12:31pm

MizMix wrote: »

Hi All, we were all set to build over a year ago but ended up at an board plenala. Finally through that process with planning and find out now we can opt out....however is it better to stick with it? We had already agreed a price with the arch we were happy with....I presume the advantages are stricter inspections/compliance and responsibility if something goes wrong? I'm not sure I see any reason to opt out aside from saving a small amount? I don't think builders here had really priced it into their quotes so they're not going to price it out as such if we opt out...

I will PM you

RKQ · 18-12-2015 3:12pm

miss no stars wrote: »

The local authorities cannot and WILL not issue them retrospectively. Until someone finds they can't sell their house due to no commencement notice and challenges it in court.

This has been the law since circa July 1992. Local Authorities never issued a Commencement Notice retrospectively.

maggi · 29-01-2016 9:51am

Hi all, I would like some advice if possible. We are currently building a house (started in Aug 2015) so are tied into old building control regs where we need an assigned certifier.
Our house is now roofed & plastered and signed off by our assigned certifier up to block level complete. Our problem is now we can't get in contact with our AC to sign off the roof, he hasn't been on site in weeks & no one is answering a phone.
We have built the house direct labour.
We decided after Christmas to start looking for a new AC as we are sick of all these delays, however most people we ring say they wouldn't be covered by insurance to take over mid-build. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to step in mid build but find ourselves now stuck?!
The architect that designed the house has been on site during the build as he is a Neighbour & has seen all the work going on but isn't an assigned certifier so can't sign off the work.
I've phoned the building controls authority to be told we can't now opt out of the assigned certifier regs as the house was started in Aug 2015 & the new regs didn't come in until Sept 2015. If we could opt out our original architect could sign off the house for us but as it stands we're stuck & not sure what to do next? Is there any way to retrospectively opt out? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

Gumbo · 29-01-2016 8:25pm

maggi wrote: »

Hi all, I would like some advice if possible. We are currently building a house (started in Aug 2015) so are tied into old building control regs where we need an assigned certifier.
Our house is now roofed & plastered and signed off by our assigned certifier up to block level complete. Our problem is now we can't get in contact with our AC to sign off the roof, he hasn't been on site in weeks & no one is answering a phone.
We have built the house direct labour.
We decided after Christmas to start looking for a new AC as we are sick of all these delays, however most people we ring say they wouldn't be covered by insurance to take over mid-build. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to step in mid build but find ourselves now stuck?!
The architect that designed the house has been on site during the build as he is a Neighbour & has seen all the work going on but isn't an assigned certifier so can't sign off the work.
I've phoned the building controls authority to be told we can't now opt out of the assigned certifier regs as the house was started in Aug 2015 & the new regs didn't come in until Sept 2015. If we could opt out our original architect could sign off the house for us but as it stands we're stuck & not sure what to do next? Is there any way to retrospectively opt out? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!

Absolutely you cannot opt out at this stage, and rightly so.
You need to engage a new AC and notify the Building Control Authority that the AC is changing. There's a specific form to use. We get a good few AC changes here in Dublin. Pretty straight forward procedure.

mickdw · 30-01-2016 12:30am

kceire wrote: »

Absolutely you cannot opt out at this stage, and rightly so.
You need to engage a new AC and notify the Building Control Authority that the AC is changing. There's a specific form to use. We get a good few AC changes here in Dublin. Pretty straight forward procedure.

Wouldn't the AC had signed a legal undertaking to supervise and issue certification.
I wouldnt be letting them off the hook that easy.

Gumbo · 30-01-2016 2:50pm

mickdw wrote: »

Wouldn't the AC had signed a legal undertaking to supervise and issue certification.
I wouldnt be letting them off the hook that easy.

Possibly but some circumstances leave no option. Business closing, death etc
That's the reason for the AC change procedure in place.

mickdw · 30-01-2016 3:01pm

kceire wrote: »

Possibly but some circumstances leave no option. Business closing, death etc
That's the reason for the AC change procedure in place.

Absolutely the option needs to be there but in this case, an unexplained stop of communication and services from a business who took AC role is very poor form.

Gumbo · 30-01-2016 7:52pm

mickdw wrote: »

Absolutely the option needs to be there but in this case, an unexplained stop of communication and services from a business who took AC role is very poor form.

100% agree.mweve had cases where the AC has stepped down. And we contact the previous AC to ask them if they have certified and up to what point. Some have told us that the clients would not pay fees due or disagreed with the amount of compliance they had to adhere to!

mickdw · 30-01-2016 9:07pm

kceire wrote: »

100% agree.mweve had cases where the AC has stepped down. And we contact the previous AC to ask them if they have certified and up to what point. Some have told us that the clients would not pay fees due or disagreed with the amount of compliance they had to adhere to!

Oh I'm all too familiar with that in my work prior to this regime.
I've fallen out with alot of clients.
One couple who wanted an initial spec far in excess of the requirements of part L came near the end of the project and after spending way over the top on kitchen and other random fit out got thick with me when I wouldnt issue final certification even though they had no central heating burner installed, no renewable, hrv piped but no hrv unit installed. No ventilation otherwise to the habitable space and they moved in.

maggi · 30-01-2016 10:43pm

kceire wrote: »

Absolutely you cannot opt out at this stage, and rightly so.
You need to engage a new AC and notify the Building Control Authority that the AC is changing. There's a specific form to use. We get a good few AC changes here in Dublin. Pretty straight forward procedure.

Thanks for your reply, I have a copy of the relevant form & will use as soon as we find a new AC. If ye get a good few changes of AC in Dublin it means it's possible so, anyone we have phoned so far say they don't have insurance to step in mid build. Was starting to think it wasn't possible, good to hear it is, thanks.

ArtieBucco · 14-03-2016 8:26pm

Hello,
Sorry if this is the wrong place for posting, my question is as follows;

i am preparing an application for planning permission, the development consists of an extension (small utility & sunroom) to the rear of our house. have all drawings prepared by a local draughtsman.

due to the BCAR regulations, what are the steps involved after planning permission (if granted)?

cheers

mickdw · 14-03-2016 8:37pm

ArtieBucco wrote: »

Hello,
Sorry if this is the wrong place for posting, my question is as follows;

i am preparing an application for planning permission, the development consists of an extension (small utility & sunroom) to the rear of our house. have all drawings prepared by a local draughtsman.

due to the BCAR regulations, what are the steps involved after planning permission (if granted)?

cheers

If it's under 40 sqm, you send in commencement without documents and that is it in terms of dealing with building control. All regs apply as they have done for numerous years but you are not bound to have a supervising professional.
If over 40 sqm, you can go for the full service AC / DC or you can exempt yourself. If you go the exemption route, you will have to send in commencement this time with design drawings showing how you will comply with regs - proper building drawings and details of part L compliance but kceire might come along and say what is being accepted in terms of detail.
If you go full service, you will have full supervision and be tied into having completion certification lodged with council etc.

Gumbo · 14-03-2016 9:57pm

ArtieBucco wrote: »

Hello,
Sorry if this is the wrong place for posting, my question is as follows;

i am preparing an application for planning permission, the development consists of an extension (small utility & sunroom) to the rear of our house. have all drawings prepared by a local draughtsman.

due to the BCAR regulations, what are the steps involved after planning permission (if granted)?

cheers

mickdw wrote: »

If it's under 40 sqm, you send in commencement without documents and that is it in terms of dealing with building control. All regs apply as they have done for numerous years but you are not bound to have a supervising professional.
If over 40 sqm, you can go for the full service AC / DC or you can exempt yourself. If you go the exemption route, you will have to send in commencement this time with design drawings showing how you will comply with regs - proper building drawings and details of part L compliance but kceire might come along and say what is being accepted in terms of detail.
If you go full service, you will have full supervision and be tied into having completion certification lodged with council etc.

I'll put a detailed response here in the morning with links etc
We have a draft email response pre made for these questions in work

ArtieBucco · 14-03-2016 10:40pm

Thank you mickdw & kceire for your replies!

the drawings have a general specification for walls, roofs etc.

do the drawings still need checking/certified if we take the exempt route at commencement stage, also are stage payments and inspections required during construction?

again thanks very much!

Gumbo · 15-03-2016 10:04am

Please see the attached instructions on how to lodge an "Opt-Out" Commencement Notice.

Please read them carefully before lodging your Notice.

As part of the process, you are required to complete and upload two extra documents, a "Declaration of Intent to Opt Out of Statutory Certification" and an "Assignment of Builder form".

These should be downloaded from the BCMS site when creating the Notice online, but if you are unable to do so due to technical difficulties, we have attached copies of the templates from the Statutory Regulations, which we will accept if they are completed by pen and uploaded.

Regards,

sydthebeat · 15-03-2016 10:23am

as an addition to the above

1. the applicant must create a new account with BCMS
2. in the "my details" tab under the "qualifications" tab they must select 'other' and type in "OPT OUT"
3. they must then create a "new application" as described in the document above.

Gumbo · 15-03-2016 10:26am

sydthebeat wrote: »

as an addition to the above

1. the applicant must create a new account with BCMS
2. in the "my details" tab under the "qualifications" tab they must select 'other' and type in "OPT OUT"
3. they must then create a "new application" as described in the document above.

+1

Also, the title of an opt out project should be : OPT OUT 1 Main Street, Dublin 1

stickybookmark · 15-03-2016 1:26pm

mickdw wrote: »

If you go the exemption route, you will have to send in commencement this time with design drawings showing how you will comply with regs - proper building drawings and details of part L compliance .

Just to note you don't need that for commencement notices in Cork. There are different requirements in different parts of the country it seems.

Gumbo · 15-03-2016 1:33pm

stickybookmark wrote: »

Just to note you don't need that for commencement notices in Cork. There are different requirements in different parts of the country it seems.

Here in Dublin, the following will suffice :

GA Drawing
Commencement Notice Form
Notice of Assignment (Builder)
Declaration of Opt out Certificate

mickdw · 15-03-2016 6:38pm

kceire wrote: »

Here in Dublin, the following will suffice :
GA Drawing

Commencement Notice Form

Notice of Assignment (Builder)

Declaration of Opt out Certificate

So are people basically lodging planning drawings?

ArtieBucco · 15-03-2016 7:11pm

@kceire, sydthebeat & stickybookmark, many thanks for your replies. thank you for the attachments provided.

starting to get the idea now, seems straight forward enough.

in regards to "mickdw" last post "So are people basically lodging planning drawings?", thats the part im kinda confused on. our drawings have been detailed to a good standard for planning and for construction. its a sunroom and small utility extension, the reason it is going for planing is because there was a previous extension added when we bought the house, which was exempt. with the new sunroom the floor area is above the 40sqm allowed.

so as mickwdw asks, do planning drawings suffice? will i need a new set of drawings at commencement stage and a detailed specification? in regards to Part L, we have BER cert, new stoves etc....

cheers!!

mickdw · 15-03-2016 7:44pm

ArtieBucco wrote: »

@kceire, sydthebeat & stickybookmark, many thanks for your replies. thank you for the attachments provided.

starting to get the idea now, seems straight forward enough.

in regards to "mickdw" last post "So are people basically lodging planning drawings?", thats the part im kinda confused on. our drawings have been detailed to a good standard for planning and for construction. its a sunroom and small utility extension, the reason it is going for planing is because there was a previous extension added when we bought the house, which was exempt. with the new sunroom the floor area is above the 40sqm allowed.

so as mickwdw asks, do planning drawings suffice? will i need a new set of drawings at commencement stage and a detailed specification? in regards to Part L, we have BER cert, new stoves etc....

cheers!!

There is no way planning drawings should be adequate but as Im said Im interested to know if that is what people are getting away with. Just to add, if basic details re Part L compliance are not being sought, it is not clear to me how you can even start detailing a build.

Gumbo · 15-03-2016 8:31pm

mickdw wrote: »

So are people basically lodging planning drawings?

In some cases, yes. We haven't got the man power to check every notice lodged unfortunately.

Gumbo · 15-03-2016 8:33pm

ArtieBucco wrote: »

@kceire, sydthebeat & stickybookmark, many thanks for your replies. thank you for the attachments provided.

starting to get the idea now, seems straight forward enough.

in regards to "mickdw" last post "So are people basically lodging planning drawings?", thats the part im kinda confused on. our drawings have been detailed to a good standard for planning and for construction. its a sunroom and small utility extension, the reason it is going for planing is because there was a previous extension added when we bought the house, which was exempt. with the new sunroom the floor area is above the 40sqm allowed.

so as mickwdw asks, do planning drawings suffice? will i need a new set of drawings at commencement stage and a detailed specification? in regards to Part L, we have BER cert, new stoves etc....

cheers!!

Technically they are not acceptable. If your house is selected for inspection, Building Control will request full working drawings from you and you would then have to get them prepared.

stickybookmark · 16-03-2016 10:19am

ArtieBucco wrote: »

@kceire, sydthebeat & stickybookmark, many thanks for your replies. thank you for the attachments provided.

starting to get the idea now, seems straight forward enough.

in regards to "mickdw" last post "So are people basically lodging planning drawings?", thats the part im kinda confused on. our drawings have been detailed to a good standard for planning and for construction. its a sunroom and small utility extension, the reason it is going for planing is because there was a previous extension added when we bought the house, which was exempt. with the new sunroom the floor area is above the 40sqm allowed.

so as mickwdw asks, do planning drawings suffice? will i need a new set of drawings at commencement stage and a detailed specification? in regards to Part L, we have BER cert, new stoves etc....

cheers!!

To be honest Artie, now that the Opt Out option is there, the BCMS is the least of your worries. I got the impression the drawings aren't even checked. It's finnicky in that all the ts have to be crossed and is dotted. If there's a siganture missing, if the title on one doc doesn't match the title on another....those are the kinds of things that gets it rejected. So it is tricky lodging the commencment notice, but nothing to do with technical detail on the drawings, more to do with small mistakes which can lead it to be rejected. My engineer helped me with mine as he was experienced with the system. Even with his help, my first one was rejected coz I forgot to sign one page

I think I'd be more concerned about having decent drawings for whoever's building it, not the bcms

ArtieBucco · 12-04-2016 6:21pm

Thanks for all the replies,

@stickybookmark thanks for the heads up regarding filling in the commencement notice, would it be possible to do a trial run before lodging, i.e downloading forms and maybe getting Building control to have a glance before submission? just a thought..

@mickdw, thanks for your reply, i understand what your getting at regarding drawings. the drawings i have are more spec, than detailed, and to be honest probably a cut n paste job! have arch tech to do working drawings now.

will let you guys know how i get on! cheers

New Building Control Regs

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