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New Building Control Regs

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    #302
    Hairy mellon
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Hairy mellon


    cost of si9 for a typical house €20k (+11%). for a self build €40k (+22%)


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    #303
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Hairy mellon wrote: »
    cost of si9 for a typical house €20k (+11%). for a self build €40k (+22%)

    research backup ?


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    #304
    Sarah3
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Sarah3


    Got quoted 5% by an engineer today to act as Design Certifier plus another 5% of budget to act as Assigned Certifier. Guess the Celtic Tiger is back.


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    #305
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,016 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Sarah3 wrote: »
    Got quoted 5% by an engineer today to act as Design Certifier plus another 5% of budget to act as Assigned Certifier. Guess the Celtic Tiger is back.

    Nothing to do with the Celtic tiger and everything to do with Phil Hogan. ..


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    #306
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Sarah3 wrote: »
    Got quoted 5% by an engineer today to act as Design Certifier plus another 5% of budget to act as Assigned Certifier. Guess the Celtic Tiger is back.

    You clearly haven't read the thread your posting in


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    #307
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    The number of commencement notices continues to fall. Well done Phil on your EU appointment - off to mess up on a continental scale now.


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    #308
    kkelliher
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 1,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭kkelliher


    RITwing wrote: »
    The number of commencement notices continues to fall. Well done Phil on your EU appointment - off to mess up on a continental scale now.

    at least he will feel right at home with the bullocks........


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    #309
    Sarah3
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Sarah3


    BryanF wrote: »
    You clearly haven't read the thread your posting in



    Actually I have read most of it and my comment was following on from a previous post quoting cost of SI9 of €20k for a typical house and €40k for self build


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    #310
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    Sarah3 wrote: »
    Actually I have read most of it and my comment was following on from a previous post quoting cost of SI9 of €20k for a typical house and €40k for self build

    What's that got to do with the Celtic tiger?


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    #311
    Hairy mellon
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Hairy mellon


    Unfortunately extra costs are incurred for no consumer benefit. All stakeholders invited to participate by Phil Hogan in creating SI.9 benefit: professionals get more fees (and duties), contractors get more work, CIF get register income (+€12m p/a), and consumer gets no additional protections (even though specifications get 'defensive'). If there is a problem an owner still has to trudge through the high court. Have a look at this post on costs form Bregs Blog:


    Cost of SI.9 for a typical house

    I don't recall seeing an SI.9 cost breakdown for an individual house (or inspection plan/ commencement submission etc!) so this may be of some use to readers. Recently I was asked to do an assessment as to the likely additional cost exposure for SI.9 on a proposed 3-4 bed house. The owner intended was going to self-build, but called a halt to the project on cost grounds. For the study I reduced costs right down to industry minimums (€180,000 cost to build a typical house). This is by no means exhaustive but I have double-checked figures with colleagues and builders.

    Say typical house €180k cost (based on average rebuild costs in industry for 3-4 bed house)
    Current professional advice from Orla Fitzgerand [RIAI representative] was that S.I9 will take an extra 18 days [for a €500k project], Shane Santry [RIAI representative at CPD] stated 156 hours for a typical house [see source post below]
    From certifiers we know that the hourly requirement is about correct [see three certifier posts previously published- links to follow].

    In my opinion the additional costs are in 3 categories as follows:

    - Professionals: 160 hours (18 days) for a €60,000 salary would give a €15,000 cost (tx 2.5) for Design and Assigned Certifier roles. This includes modest profit and overheads, insurance, travel costs and excludes vat @ 23%. If we assume this is done at cost the figure would be €12,000. Anything less than this and work would be done at a loss to the practice. So say +7% of the cost of the entire build.
    - Defensive specifications: possibly +5% (see note below)
    - Self-builds- Main Contractor’s profit, attendance and prelims etc. +12%

    1. Professional Fees

    On a €180,000 project the professional fees (at cost) for design and assigned certifiers alone are €12,000. This excludes additional fees and costs for other sub-contractor/ ancillary certifiers responsibilities which are all new and will be either borne by sub-contractors or passed onto owners. All members of the design team have additional paperwork and manufacturers and suppliers will need new insurances also. Some sub-contractors will be required to provide three certificates under the new system.

    If we assume SI.9 is done at cost with no practice profit the professional fees are €12,000.

    2. Specification Costs

    Conservative specifications will increase costs but by how much? Specifiers will be more "careful" and some estimates suggest these more "defensive" specifications could be 5% extra. This defensive specification estimate is an average cost taking into account input from other professionals and contractors. If 5% defensive spec. seems too high, remember we have nothing in for additional ancillary certs/ sub-contractor insurance costs etc.

    A 5% increase in cost due to defensive specifications is + €9,000.

    3. Self-Builders

    Self builders also must factor in the cost of employing a main contractor to undertake the duties they intended to do themselves. A self-builder may not do any trade or building work themselves- they may just co-ordinate others. On larger projects a builder managing sub-contractors is frequently called a 'management contractor'- this is the role that many self-builders do out of financial necessity. [On a self-build the owner frequently co-ordinates sub-contractors such as plumbers, electricians, blocklayers, carpenters etc., liaising with engineers and/or architects etc. This is quite time consuming and is where the big saving is for self-builders. Obviously where a self-builder is a tradesman they also do other work themselves. Frequently family members help out etc.]

    A normal cost to employ a management contractor (builder) for a residential project would be in the region of 12%. A breakdown of this cost is as follows: a main contractor will normally charge 5% on top of all sub-contractors costs for co-ordination (called attendance); preliminary costs vary from 5-10% cover insurances, scaffolding, site facilities, signage, insurance etc. This cost is for contractors profit, attendances, co-ordination costs, salaries for foreman (or his salary), preliminaries and insurances etc. A standard performance bond cost also may be required.

    This 12% total additional cost for the involvement of a main contractor is reasonable and not inflated. For a self-builder this is in addition to professional fees.

    The cost to employ a main contractor is 12% of total cost + €21,600.
    Conclusion

    These costs are not exhaustive, but even with margins of error, serious discounts, economies of scale for multiple units, real-world costs for SI.9 are a multiple for those quoted and reiterated by the Department and the previous Minister.

    SI9 cost for a typical house where there is a main contractor could be + €21,000 (12k prof fees + 9k defensive spec cost)
    SI9 cost for a typical house for a self-builder could be double at + €42,600 (prof fees + spec costs + 21.6k builder costs)


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    #312
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    On advice from their insurers and legal advisers at least one of Ireland’s largest multi-disciplinary construction consultancies, involved in multi-million Euro commissions, has admitted it will not be undertaking the role of Assigned Certifier on any of its projects as the risk is considered too great.

    source

    So who is left foolish enough to take part in Hogans nonsese ?
    I would not act as AC_DC for any fee.


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    #313
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    RITwing wrote: »
    source

    So who is left foolish enough to take part in Hogans nonsese ?
    I would not act as AC_DC for any fee.

    Not everyone is fortunate enough to avoid acting as AC/DC...
    Nor is everyone trained to design/check building regs actually ellegable to act as AC/DC
    Thundering f...up Of a situation


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    #314
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    RITwing wrote: »
    source

    So who is left foolish enough to take part in Hogans nonsese ?
    I would not act as AC_DC for any fee.

    ...whilst that is undoubtedly true, it really would be far more useful if that company, and others like them, came out in public. Because, unless the company is happy to be known, and to make some sort of public statement to that effect, it's only going to be treated as hearsay. If that company is actually mindful to make a difference, it should come out.

    Otherwise the Dept is going to avoid any real wrath from anyone that can have influence. We already know the Dept don't give a monkey's anyway.

    Raises a question though: if that company won't act as AC, then what purpose do they serve ? Who, and what, will they work for ? The requirement to have an AC on a project is still law. Will they just hand on all their work to some other person who will sign as AC, and on what basis ?

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #315
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,545 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    BryanF wrote: »
    Not everyone is fortunate enough to avoid acting as AC/DC...

    Anyone acting as AC under the current situation is:

    a) in it to make hay while the sun shines and will be gone after the first or second assault on their PI Insurance.
    b) don't realise the full extent of what they are doing/signing.
    c) charging enough to make it worth while (not just the actual cost of the work).


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    #316
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I'm sitting here at the Self Build show in City West now and reading the show guide and I notice something. ..

    SEAI have a stand here, Revenue have a stand here, but two glaring omissions. Neither the DoE nor the RIAI have a presence.

    Given the complete mess we're in it would have been a good idea for DoE to be here. I was bombarded with AC/DC questions yesterday - and I'm far from qualified. .

    Ditto the RIAI.

    There again, neither institution is known for a policy of openness. ..

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #317
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Are the engineers and SCSI there?


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    #318
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Are the engineers and SCSI there?

    Don't think so. Will look and revert.

    Just checked : nope, no show (sic) for them either. ..

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #319
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Given that it's a 'self build' show maybe its apt that none of the bodies that design and assigned certifiers come from are there ! :)


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    #320
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Given that it's a 'self build' show maybe its apt that none of the bodies that design and assigned certifiers come from are there ! :)

    Lol.

    .. Given the"permission slip" DoE gave out to self builders you'd think that's exactly why they should be here !

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #321
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    galwaytt is there any organisation or body there to raise awareness or give guidance on SI 9 ?


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    #322
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    RITwing wrote: »
    galwaytt is there any organisation or body there to raise awareness or give guidance on SI 9 ?

    DoE should be there...they have all the information (some of which clearly remains in the heads of the mandarins!!!).


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    #323
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    RITwing wrote: »
    galwaytt is there any organisation or body there to raise awareness or give guidance on SI 9 ?

    Not a single one.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #324
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    DoE should be there...they have all the information (some of which clearly remains in the heads of the mandarins!!!).

    Should, yes. But aren't.

    Clearly some mandarins have the luxury of a Mon - Fri 39hr week job. ...

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #325
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,016 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    galwaytt wrote: »
    Not a single one.

    Absolutely disgraceful.

    Surely the overriding question in the whole show is "can we still self build"


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    #326
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Absolutely disgraceful.

    Surely the overriding question in the whole show is "can we still self build"

    Well hundreds/thousands here over 2 days think 'yes', so I'll go with that for it now :)

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #327
    Hairy mellon
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Hairy mellon


    DOE should have posted up a big poster

    "Go home there's no more self-building in Ireland" and posted up a phone number for the CIF

    organisers wouldn't have like that however...

    extract off RIAI client guidance issued 1st September:

    "Who can act as the Builder?

    A person undertaking the role of the Builder must be competent to undertake that role. The Government is committed to establishing a statutory Register of Builders, and a voluntary Register is already in place (https://ciri.ie/).

    I am a Self-Builder, can I undertake the role of the Builder?

    A person can self-build only if they are competent to undertake that role. Competence is defined as a person who possesses sufficient training, experience and knowledge of the project task."

    The current definition of "competent" builder under the Code of Practice (where self-building not mentioned once) is someone with minimum 3 years experience of building similar projects....


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    #328
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,016 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    i think the whole issue here boils down to the phrase "self builder"

    its really a bastardised phrase thats used to describe a 'direct labour' project management system. ive had this argument many times before that the title is erroneous and opaque.

    very very few "self builders" actually "self build".

    so if you were to accept that you should not be allowed to actually build your own home unless you were sufficiently trained, then it makes sense.
    however the regulations complete fcuk up when they require signing of the "builder" as being a "principle or director of a building company". There could be many cases where the actual signing principle or director may have never build even a dog shed in their life.... yet can sign certs because they are CIRi registered.


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    #329
    Hairy mellon
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Hairy mellon


    agreed

    many "builders" are management contractors, essentially co-ordinating specialist sub-contractors for groundworks, blockwork, timber, m&e etc.

    unfortunately SI9 does not permit non-builders to occupy this role: co-ordinating sub-contractors as main or "management" contractor.

    while Local Authorities (on DOE advice) appear to be letting owners commence (who do not have 3 years relevant experience) it remains to be seen if owner/ builders will be allowed to sign on the dotted line on completion, and whether this will be validated. More importantly it remains to be seen if there will be conveyancing issues with self-builds (selling-on or re-financing etc).

    given that the Law Society confirmed (in reply to IAOSB) that they weren't consulted by the DOE on the regulations, it looks like a risky undertaking atm... you wouldn't want to be the first one over the trench on this.


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    #330
    No6
    Registered Users Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    As a brief aside here in Western Australia all builds over 20k must be by a registered builder unless the owner applies for and gets an owner builder licence which allows them to 'Self Build" in a similar manner to the direct labour form of building. They do have to go through a process and prove thy are competent to do the job they want to and there are courses for to get them competent if required. A similar system in Ireland would at least allow the possibility of self building.


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    #331
    kkelliher
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 1,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭kkelliher


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    Are the engineers and SCSI there?

    SCSI have never being any good at promoting their members interest so thats no surprise. I still have to explain to most clients what a QS does.


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