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New Building Control Regs

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    #242
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    At any rate, what you're all really claiming is that the engineer is now responsible, no matter what mistakes or cover ups the quarry, architect, designer and contractor make. That fantasy is not going to stand up in real life anywhere I'm afraid.

    Agreed. See post 202.


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    #243
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    At any rate, what you're all really claiming is that the engineer is now responsible, no matter what mistakes or cover ups the quarry, architect, designer and contractor make.
    That fantasy is not going to stand up in real life anywhere I'm afraid.

    That is exactly the problem.

    Someone, somewhere, is going to call halt to the shenanigans. The legislation is trying to hold the AC responsible for the boiler blowing up, or the electrics short circuiting. That's not possible. And as with the "no retrospective commencement notices, tear it down and start again" business they're carrying on with, it will be challenged, however, it will probably bring absolute ruin onto people before it makes it to the HC. What will actually happen is senior counsel will start employing junior counsel, a second home in the south of France will be purchased by the barrister raking it in, the AC will be sued and will sue an ancillary certifier who will sue their suppliers and they'll chase each other around, raking the money in for the legal eagles until such a time as someone screams stop and settles; or the cost of the proceedings bankrupts everyone and the building owner is 50k further in the hole with no redress to show for it. It's a mess and some transfer of responsibility onto ancillary certifiers needs to be made.


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    #244
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Basically we're back to the situation where the lads that will sign anything will get work, and the lads that won't, won't. This has hardly been a recipe for success in the Irish 'construction' industry.

    Yes we are.
    No it wasn't / isn't.
    Tell everyone you know.


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    #245
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Ah well. Fiasco Phil and incompetence strikes again.

    Thanks for the straight answers folks. That's all people want.

    How ye work in an industry like that I'll never know.


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    #246
    galwaytt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,761 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    miss no stars wrote: »
    That is exactly the problem.

    Someone, somewhere, is going to call halt to the shenanigans. The legislation is trying to hold the AC responsible for the boiler blowing up, or the electrics short circuiting. That's not possible. And as with the "no retrospective commencement notices, tear it down and start again" business they're carrying on with, it will be challenged, however, it will probably bring absolute ruin onto people before it makes it to the HC. What will actually happen is senior counsel will start employing junior counsel, a second home in the south of France will be purchased by the barrister raking it in, the AC will be sued and will sue an ancillary certifier who will sue their suppliers and they'll chase each other around, raking the money in for the legal eagles until such a time as someone screams stop and settles; or the cost of the proceedings bankrupts everyone and the building owner is 50k further in the hole with no redress to show for it. It's a mess and some transfer of responsibility onto ancillary certifiers needs to be made.

    And in the meantime what ??

    10's of thousands of us in the industry have nowhere else to go in the a.m.

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



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    #247
    RITwing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 246 ✭✭RITwing


    SI 9 is feeding into that too. A massive spike in commencement notices happened in Jan/Feb follwed by a cliff fall after


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    #248
    Sarah3
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Sarah3


    Couple of questions on new regs:

    I am about to renovate a 1960s house and put on a significant extension. As part of this I plan to demolish an ugly single storey extension, so:

    Q1: Will the assigned certifiier be my engineer who will supervise and sign off on all works or the building contractor

    Q2: Does the assigned certifier only apply to the new build or also to the renovation and the demolition. The reason I am asking this is I have had my first quote back and demolition costs and ground work price is ridiculus so am wondering would it be possible under new regs to get a separate contractor to do the demolition and groundwork and then a separate contractor for all else


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    #249
    Sarah3
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Sarah3


    Sarah3 wrote: »
    Couple of questions on new regs:

    I am about to renovate a 1960s house and put on a significant extension. As part of this I plan to demolish an ugly single storey extension, so:

    Q1: Will the assigned certifiier be my engineer who will supervise and sign off on all works or the building contractor

    Q2: Does the assigned certifier only apply to the new build or also to the renovation and the demolition. The reason I am asking this is I have had my first quote back and demolition costs and ground work price is ridiculus so am wondering would it be possible under new regs to get a separate contractor to do the demolition and groundwork and then a separate contractor for all else

    Also meant to ask:

    Do I need a design certifier as my planning application was lodged in February before the new regs came into play?


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    #250
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Sarah3 wrote: »
    ....put on a significant extension. As part of this I plan to demolish an ugly single storey extension...

    What size is the extension?
    Sarah3 wrote: »
    Will the assigned certifiier be my engineer who will supervise and sign off on all works...

    The Design and Assigned certifier has to be either a registered architect, chartered engineer or chartered building surveyor.

    If your engineer is chartered, then yes, s/he can undertake the role...but do not assume automatically...you need to discuss/confirm with them.

    The builder cannot undertake this role.
    Sarah3 wrote: »
    Does the assigned certifier only apply to the new build or also to the renovation and the demolition...

    Makes no difference how you split up the contract, there will be one Commencement Notice for the entire job...splitting up the job between different contractors may make things more difficult for the Assigned Certifier.
    Sarah3 wrote: »
    Do I need a design certifier as my planning application was lodged in February before the new regs came into play?

    Yes, once the building work starts after March 1st, you need a Design and Assigned Certifier...assuming your extension is bigger than 40m.sq.?

    Also bear in mind Health & Safety...have you appointed a PSDP? Also see here: http://www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/Construction/homeowners_guidance.pdf


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    #251
    Sarah3
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Sarah3


    QUOTE=DOCARCH;91877952]What size is the extension?

    Thanks DocArch for making things a bit clearer. The extension is approx. 90sq. metres.

    My engineer was the person who designed the project for us so I assume he will act as design and assigned certifier but I need to check he is a Chartered Engineer qualified to do so.


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    #252
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,764 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    Sarah3 wrote: »
    QUOTE=DOCARCH;91877952]My engineer was the person who designed the project for us so I assume he will act as design and assigned certifier but I need to check he is a Chartered Engineer qualified to do so.

    Yes...check...I would not assume. Normally, acting as Design/Assigned Certifier would or should be a separate appointment (even if the same person).


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    #253
    Frog Song
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Frog Song


    Regarding the new regulations.

    Just got quoted €10,000 from an engineer for his services on our build.

    Construction designs 3,200+vat
    Prepare tender documentation 980+vat
    Supervise & project manage the work 3,800+vat
    Prepare BER cert & sign off 250+vat
    Carry out duties of PSDP in relation to health & safety 650+vat

    2,000 sq ft dormer. In Cork.

    Would this be an average price or should we shop around? This is the first engineer we have met with.


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    #254
    MizMix
    Registered Users Posts: 313 ✭✭MizMix


    Frog song we're paying the same plus VAT on top but that's with an registered architect- we haggled hard and we agreed a price (7k) a few years back when business was very low for him so he increased costs by 3k to cover the ac and dc role. Engineers are normally cheaper but again I think we're paying well below standard for an architect. 10k seems reasonable for a full service.


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    #255
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Shop around.

    Also, be very clear about what you want. If it's a standard enough house, do you really need an engineer or architect on site all day every day?

    BTW, VAT is at 23%


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    #256
    Frog Song
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Frog Song


    miss no stars wrote: »
    Shop around.

    Also, be very clear about what you want. If it's a standard enough house, do you really need an engineer or architect on site all day every day?

    BTW, VAT is at 23%

    Thanks miss no stars.

    He's not going to be on site every day, just on site visits (not sure how often) or checks signing off at different stages for the new regulations. It's a pretty standard, average dormer house just over 2,000 sq ft.


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    #257
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Frog Song wrote: »
    Thanks miss no stars.

    He's not going to be on site every day, just on site visits (not sure how often) or checks signing off at different stages for the new regulations. It's a pretty standard, average dormer house just over 2,000 sq ft.

    What happens if something dodgy is done while he's not on site, who picks up the tab in a few years time when it comes to light ?


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    #258
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    What happens if something dodgy is done while he's not on site, who picks up the tab in a few years time when it comes to light ?

    In fairness, it's a one off house. It doesn't get any easier.

    Contractor calls engineer at all relevant stages. Engineer inspects. Contractor moves on to next stage. It's not rocket science.

    Why would you pay an engineer the guts of 6k to sit around watching lads lay blocks?


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    #259
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    miss no stars wrote: »
    Why would you pay an engineer the guts of 6k to sit around watching lads lay blocks?

    Shouldn't the question be, why would any certifyer sign off works not seen?


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    #260
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    What works aren't seen? You don't need to see every single block laid to see whether the blockwork has been laid properly. You don't need to see every reinforcing bar placed to know it's been done right - you show up and inspect the excavations and reinforcement when it's ready for pouring.


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    #261
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,103 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    miss no stars wrote: »
    What works aren't seen? You don't need to see every single block laid to see whether the blockwork has been laid properly. You don't need to see every reinforcing bar placed to know it's been done right - you show up and inspect the excavations and reinforcement when it's ready for pouring.

    there are estimated figures for length of time predicted to be on site...


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    #262
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    miss no stars wrote: »
    In fairness, it's a one off house. It doesn't get any easier.

    Contractor calls engineer at all relevant stages. Engineer inspects. Contractor moves on to next stage. It's not rocket science.

    Why would you pay an engineer the guts of 6k to sit around watching lads lay blocks?

    I've seen loads of things done behind engineers backs, they can't check everything, its a game and a laugh on a lot of sites to see what you can get away with and what you can hide. I'm wondering what happens when something like that comes to light in a few years, who picks up the tab ?


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    #263
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    miss no stars wrote: »
    What works aren't seen? You don't need to see every single block laid to see whether the blockwork has been laid properly. You don't need to see every reinforcing bar placed to know it's been done right - you show up and inspect the excavations and reinforcement when it's ready for pouring.

    Speaking of blockwork, I like to see ALL wall ties, DPC, trays, fill, closings, bearings, cills and returns, as they are being carried out. We only get one chance to make sure moisture is not allowed across the cavity. I have found ties sloping down towards the inside, I have also found lots of dirty wall ties and sections of walling without the required number of ties. I have found VDPC's too tight to allow windows to be fitted without snipping them, cills spanning cavities, trays omitted, etc., etc and that's just since March.


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    #264
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    who picks up the tab ?

    Under the new regs it's the assigned certifyer's insurance, or at least it is until the PI Insurance companies pull the plug.


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    #265
    Ralphdejones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Ralphdejones


    Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »
    Under the new regs it's the assigned certifyer's insurance, or at least it is until the PI Insurance companies pull the plug.

    Sounds dandy, but insurance companies are nobody's fool. Insurance companies have been making loopholes and fine print for generations.


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    #266
    Poor Uncle Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 14,546 ✭✭✭✭Poor Uncle Tom


    Ralphdejones wrote: »
    Sounds dandy, but insurance companies are nobody's fool. Insurance companies have been making loopholes and fine print for generations.

    You're ok so, I guess.


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    #267
    miss no stars
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,957 ✭✭✭miss no stars


    So you're saying you all sit around on site from start to finish?

    A lot of engineers would find that a little bit unneccessary tbh. Go ahead and knock yourselves out with the boredom if you want, but honestly, you don't need to be there 24/7 to make sure it's done right. Besides, if there's more than one guy on site, how do you make sure the other guy(s) aren't doing something behind your back?

    Guess what? Full supervision is impossible. It cannot be done. At that rate you'd be building it yourself or standing over one guy's shoulder from start to finish. That makes you a foreman.


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    #268
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,103 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    miss no stars wrote: »
    So you're saying you all sit around on site from start to finish?

    A lot of engineers would find that a little bit unneccessary tbh. Go ahead and knock yourselves out with the boredom if you want, but honestly, you don't need to be there 24/7 to make sure it's done right. Besides, if there's more than one guy on site, how do you make sure the other guy(s) aren't doing something behind your back?

    Guess what? Full supervision is impossible. It cannot be done. At that rate you'd be building it yourself or standing over one guy's shoulder from start to finish. That makes you a foreman.

    which is exactly what the the new certificates require...

    certification of other peoples work by inspection.....


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    #269
    Frog Song
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Frog Song


    We spoke to 3 other engineers yesterday regarding our build....none of them said they'd be on site everyday? :confused:


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    #270
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,103 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Frog Song wrote: »
    We spoke to 3 other engineers yesterday regarding our build....none of them said they'd be on site everyday? :confused:

    they wont be, no one could afford that.

    have a look at this, which suggest 99 hours

    http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/post-1-a-registered-building-surveyors-inspection-plan/


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    #271
    Frog Song
    Registered Users Posts: 371 ✭✭Frog Song


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    they wont be, no one could afford that.

    have a look at this, which suggest 99 hours

    http://bregsforum.wordpress.com/2014/05/06/post-1-a-registered-building-surveyors-inspection-plan/

    Thanks. I thought as much but I thought you were suggesting to miss no stars there that they had to be on site every day.


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