Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

b.gud · 24-02-2016 1:31pm

awec wrote: »

Payne has only played two games for Ulster this season. The majority of his appearances (virtually all) since he became IQ have been at 13.

And I am betting that Henderson's appearances at 6 for Ulster will be very few and far between going forward.

This Henshaw transfer just makes less and less sense to me as time goes on, it is very detrimental to Ireland. You now have the guy who is probably the best 13 in Ireland and the guy touted to be the next big thing at 13 playing at the same team. One of them is going to have to give.

Henshaw in Munster, Ringrose in Leinster and Marshall / Olding at Ulster would have made way more sense. It's a pity Robbie couldn't be persuaded to take a move south. stay put and create a lethal partnership with Bundee Aki

Fixed that for you

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2016 1:33pm

Unless Henshaw's long-term future is seen at fullback as a replacement to Kearney. We have tons of players who could turn into international quality midfielders, far less so at fullback.

Mr Tickle · 24-02-2016 1:34pm

kuang1 wrote: »

I disagree with D'Arcy and some others on here...
For me Henshaw is a full back out and out. RK is having a dismal season and hasn't got much left in his career.
McCloskey and Ringrose are what I envisage our centre pairing should be by the time 2019 comes around with Henshaw at 15.

If they all develop the way they look like they could you might be right.

How we move to that set-up could go one of a few ways.

We can either move henshaw to 13 in the interim and have Payne and Kearney compete for 15. then when Ringrose is ready we move henshaw to 15.

Alternatively we move Henshaw straight back and go with McCloskey and Payne as our centres until the golden child steps up.

Also we have Olding there to confuse matters.

wp_rathead · 24-02-2016 1:37pm

Mr Tickle wrote: »

If they all develop the way they look like they could you might be right.

How we move to that set-up could go one of a few ways.

We can either move henshaw to 13 in the interim and have Payne and Kearney compete for 15. then when Ringrose is ready we move henshaw to 15.

Alternatively we move Henshaw straight back and go with McCloskey and Payne as our centres until the golden child steps up.

Also we have Olding there to confuse matters.

Just for the craic imagine :
15 Henshaw
14 Ringrose
13 Aki
12 McCloskey
11 Olding

Mr Tickle · 24-02-2016 1:40pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

Just for the craic imagine :
15 Henshaw
14 Ringrose
13 Aki
12 McCloskey
11 Olding

Leinster's shopping list

captbarnacles · 24-02-2016 2:15pm

wp_rathead wrote: »

Just for the craic imagine :
15 Henshaw
14 Ringrose
13 Aki
12 McCloskey
11 Olding

With a backrow of Henderson, SOB and CJ

NiallBoo · 24-02-2016 2:37pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We have tons of players who could turn into international quality midfielders, far less so at fullback.

We have loads of good full-backs...they just keep getting coveted to centres...

RichieRich89 · 24-02-2016 3:03pm

O'Halloran and Nelson have looked good at fullback this season

kuang1 · 24-02-2016 3:25pm

captbarnacles wrote: »

With a backrow of Henderson, SOB and CJ

Who would you have as our 2nd row?
I was hoping next year twould be Henderson and Toner. With Dillane in reserve.

Btw how old is Dillane? (Am I even spelling his name right?!)

Neil3030 · 24-02-2016 3:25pm

VdF and TOD "running down Ford's throat" is not exactly creating the best mismatch. They are both fast, technical backrows who don't really offer much in size above Henshaw and McCloskey. Ruddock would be the man to start there, if this is the plan.

JPNelsforearm · 24-02-2016 3:27pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

VdF and TOD "running down Ford's throat" is not exactly creating the best mismatch. They are both fast, technical backrows who don't really offer much in size above Henshaw and McCloskey. Ruddock would be the man to start there, if this is the plan.

Ruddock is a class 6, Id worry for him at openside if we are planning on playing a wide high tempo game

sydthebeat · 24-02-2016 3:33pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

VdF and TOD "running down Ford's throat" is not exactly creating the best mismatch. They are both fast, technical backrows who don't really offer much in size above Henshaw and McCloskey. Ruddock would be the man to start there, if this is the plan.

you want speed first and foremost from your openside if your patently going to target the 10. Ruddock is slower than both guys mentioned.
Size is immaterial if you cant get to a guy.

Bazzo · 24-02-2016 3:42pm

kuang1 wrote: »

Who would you have as our 2nd row?
I was hoping next year twould be Henderson and Toner. With Dillane in reserve.

Btw how old is Dillane? (Am I even spelling his name right?!)

Yes, you're spelling it right. He's 22.

I wouldn't be overly worried about his weight/power, he may look a bit slight but he's listed at 115kg on the European squad making him heavier than a lot of locks and he's a great athlete. Connacht's(very successful) scrum has never suffered because of him and yes, I know before a million people shout it a me that there's a step up to international level but as I've said before you can't prove yourself on that stage until you're actually given a chance.

The Lost Sheep · 24-02-2016 4:28pm

Bazzo wrote: »

Yes, you're spelling it right. He's 22.

I wouldn't be overly worried about his weight/power, he may look a bit slight but he's listed at 115kg on the European squad making him heavier than a lot of locks and he's a great athlete. Connacht's(very successful) scrum has never suffered because of him and yes, I know before a million people shout it a me that there's a step up to international level but as I've said before you can't prove yourself on that stage until you're actually given a chance.

I wouldn't worry at all about his weight/power especially considering his comments recently that the Connacht coaches/s&c etc believe that he has the frame to be 120kg down the line.
Good going by Ultan if he does get a cap as he only has 10 or so appearances for Connacht senior team and has been playing AIL this season as well....

Neil3030 · 24-02-2016 5:24pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

you want speed first and foremost from your openside if your patently going to target the 10. Ruddock is slower than both guys mentioned.
Size is immaterial if you cant get to a guy.

I presumed the comment was with reference to attacking down the 10 channel, not defending it?

sydthebeat · 24-02-2016 5:51pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

I presumed the comment was with reference to attacking down the 10 channel, not defending it?

Fair point!

AbusesToilets · 24-02-2016 7:20pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Unless Henshaw's long-term future is seen at fullback as a replacement to Kearney. We have tons of players who could turn into international quality midfielders, far less so at fullback.

Wouldn't shock me if Leinster were bringing him in with an eye to that.

LorMal · 24-02-2016 8:13pm

awec wrote: »

He says Ireland and Leinster can build their back line around Henshaw at 13.

How can Ringrose come into the equation if this happens at Leinster? Unless Ringrose is shoved across to 12, but this seems very unlikely.

If Leinster want Ringrose to come through then Henshaw can't play there, but then by extension Ireland can hardly build their backline around a guy who doesn't actually play in that position regularly.

Honest question (not trying to be argumentative) but why can't Ringrose play 12 and Henshaw 13?
I recall reading somewhere (maybe here) that BOD at 13 and Darcy at 12 set a blueprint for those positions in most Ireland / Leinster supporters minds. But that there is equal (and maybe more) merit in having your enforcer at 13 and your creative centre at 12?
Be interested to hear your views

blindside88 · 24-02-2016 8:19pm

LorMal wrote: »

Honest question (not trying to be argumentative) but why can't Ringrose play 12 and Henshaw 13?
I recall reading somewhere (maybe here) that BOD at 13 and Darcy at 12 set a blueprint for those positions in most Ireland / Leinster supporters minds. But that there is equal (and maybe more) merit in having your enforcer at 13 and your creative centre at 12?
Be interested to hear your views

Attacking wise I see what you're saying, makes more sense to have your creative centre beside the 10. Defensive wise however there is a difference in the space that the 12 and 13 need to cover (maybe it's my Munster perspective from having O'Gara at 10 for so long), but the 12 is required to take up some of the tackling slack from the 10 as usually the half backs are the least physical players on the pitch.

JPNelsforearm · 24-02-2016 8:20pm

LorMal wrote: »

Honest question (not trying to be argumentative) but why can't Ringrose play 12 and Henshaw 13?
I recall reading somewhere (maybe here) that BOD at 13 and Darcy at 12 set a blueprint for those positions in most Ireland / Leinster supporters minds. But that there is equal (and maybe more) merit in having your enforcer at 13 and your creative centre at 12?
Be interested to hear your views

Aus and NZ have been doing that for years, the likes of Elton Flatley, Gits, Mauger etc all paired with a bigger guy at 13.

Tbh I'd rather go the Bok route, big 12, big 13 a la, DeWetBarry/Joubert, JdV/Fourie

McCloskey/Henshaw

LorMal · 24-02-2016 8:23pm

Yes, I see what you're saying. But the fact that the 13 has to cover a much wider space, maybe your best defender should be there and meanwhile your Ringrose 'floaty jinker' type can find gaps in the centre?

swiwi_ · 24-02-2016 8:25pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Aus and NZ have been doing that for years, the likes of Elton Flatley, Gits, Mauger etc all paired with a bigger guy at 13.

Tbh I'd rather go the Bok route, big 12, big 13 a la, DeWetBarry/Joubert, JdV/Fourie

McCloskey/Henshaw

I think NZ will stick with the Nonu/Smith style of pairing which was an enduring success for NZ. I really don't see NZ going back to the "2 playmakers" at 10 and 12, which was the case with Mauger.

I don't see Ringrose as an international 12 - not big enough if you go down the Nonu-route, and not really a playmaker if you go down the Mauger/Giteau route.

Edit: in fact NZ very much favours 10/15s rather than 10/12s these days, as typified by Barrett.

RichieRich89 · 24-02-2016 8:26pm

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Aus and NZ have been doing that for years, the likes of Elton Flatley, Gits, Mauger etc all paired with a bigger guy at 13.

Tbh I'd rather go the Bok route, big 12, big 13 a la, DeWetBarry/Joubert, JdV/Fourie

McCloskey/Henshaw

NZ have gone away from the ball-playing 12 though, with Nonu being a stalwart over the last number of years. His distribution and kicking improved to a good level by the end of his time with the ABs, but he was primarily there for his physicality, with Smith bringing the passing and subtlety

LorMal · 24-02-2016 8:29pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

I think NZ will stick with the Nonu/Smith style of pairing which was an enduring success for NZ. I really don't see NZ going back to the "2 playmakers" at 10 and 12, which was the case with Mauger.

I don't see Ringrose as an international 12 - not big enough if you go down the Nonu-route, and not really a playmaker if you go down the Mauger/Giteau route.

Good point. But given we don't have the embarrassment of riches of NZ, would Ringrose/Henshaw not be a decent pragmatic option - at least for Leinster?

RichieRich89 · 24-02-2016 8:34pm

LorMal wrote: »

Good point. But given we don't have the embarrassment of riches of NZ, would Ringrose/Henshaw not be a decent pragmatic option - at least for Leinster?

Not as good as Henshaw/Ringrose

swiwi_ · 24-02-2016 8:35pm

LorMal wrote: »

Good point. But given we don't have the embarrassment of riches of NZ, would Ringrose/Henshaw not be a decent pragmatic option - at least for Leinster?

Maybe. But from what I've seen of Ringrose so far he doesn't strike me as having the kicking game required for a playmaking 12. And he doesn't have Henshaw's power.

It's just like playing Madigan (or Carter) at 12 - not much of an offensive threat imo.

Ringrose looks like a specialist 13 to me (suggestions to play him on the wing are crazy I think), in which case Leinster can play Henshaw at 12 or 15.

JPNelsforearm · 24-02-2016 8:42pm

RichieRich89 wrote: »

NZ have gone away from the ball-playing 12 though, with Nonu being a stalwart over the last number of years. His distribution and kicking improved to a good level by the end of his time with the ABs, but he was primarily there for his physicality, with Smith bringing the passing and subtlety

swiwi_ wrote: »

I think NZ will stick with the Nonu/Smith style of pairing which was an enduring success for NZ. I really don't see NZ going back to the "2 playmakers" at 10 and 12, which was the case with Mauger.

I don't see Ringrose as an international 12 - not big enough if you go down the Nonu-route, and not really a playmaker if you go down the Mauger/Giteau route.

Edit: in fact NZ very much favours 10/15s rather than 10/12s these days, as typified by Barrett.

Is Nonu/SBW big 12/playmaking 13 in NZ not just due to them being the best option at the time.
McAlister succeeded Mauger and would have been fighting it out with Nonu if not for him never regaining the form he had when he was keeping Nonu out of the team pre WC..and then throwing his toys out of the pram.

I'd never see Ringrose as a 12 and I think he will struggle to get game time at international level with Henshaw in front of him.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 24-02-2016 8:43pm

What if Ringrose never gets any better than he is now and can't make the step up to International rugby.

irishbucsfan · 24-02-2016 8:44pm

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

What if Ringrose never gets any better than he is now and can't make the step up to International rugby.

Then we'll just wait for the next messiah, that's the Leinster way

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 24-02-2016 8:45pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Then we'll just wait for the next messiah, that's the Leinster way

And Ireland will have to make do with someone from the Ulster Centres of Excellence. (and Henshaw)

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

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