Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread V

LorMal

Have to say, I disagree with you there Noopti. I think Matt Williams has been honest and forthright in his analysis. He rightly said that our attacking play was (and is) blunt and ineffectual - even if we did manage to narrowly win the 6N last year. He has been proved correct.

In Ireland, it seems to be regarded as almost unpatriotic to criticise the team (and especially the current national coach). Most pundits pay lip service to criticism and use mundane platitudes when reviewing poor performances.

I do not like personal criticism of any player or coach - people are doing their best with limited resources. However, we should be able to critically analyse where we are going wrong without being afraid of a backlash from 'loyal supporters'.

Noopti

I don't think we are disagreeing at all, I agree that our attack has been pretty impotent for a while!
My main point was the way Williams gets his point across, compared to someone like EOS - which was more obvious on OTB yesterday as they were both on the show. Even though both are basically making the same point, I am much more likely to listen to EOS and his more analytical and (seemingly) thought out approach, compared to Williams more emotional (if that is the right word) approach. Williams sounds more like a fan of rugby, compared to EOS actually sounding like someone who knows the detail of what is happening. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but as an experienced coach himself I would like him to elaborate a bit more on his thoughts and give me some specifics!

captbarnacles

Christian Cullen ran the best support lines I've ever seen. Always seemed to be right on the shoulder of whoever made a break. Worked great with the AB's because he usually got the pass but not so much at clubs where he didn't and then you have a big problem because your full back is MIA.

Yeah_Right

Noopti wrote: »

I don't think we are disagreeing at all, I agree that our attack has been pretty impotent for a while!
My main point was the way Williams gets his point across, compared to someone like EOS - which was more obvious on OTB yesterday as they were both on the show. Even though both are basically making the same point, I am much more likely to listen to EOS and his more analytical and (seemingly) thought out approach, compared to Williams more emotional (if that is the right word) approach. Williams sounds more like a fan of rugby, compared to EOS actually sounding like someone who knows the detail of what is happening. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but as an experienced coach himself I would like him to elaborate a bit more on his thoughts and give me some specifics!

I get what you're saying Noopti. Williams comes across as if he's got an axe to grind rather providing analysis. I have no issue with criticising the players, the tactics, the selections but give evidence and back it up. Especially if you are a former international coach. Some of his comments strike me as lazy.

CMOTDibbler

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I get what you're saying Noopti. Williams comes across as if he's got an axe to grind rather providing analysis. I have no issue with criticising the players, the tactics, the selections but give evidence and back it up. Especially if you are a former international coach. Some of his comments strike me as lazy.

The annoying thing is we know he's capable of structured and reasoned analysis. He just seems to fall back on cliches and statements of the obvious at times for no reason.

Noopti

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I get what you're saying Noopti. Williams comes across as if he's got an axe to grind rather providing analysis. I have no issue with criticising the players, the tactics, the selections but give evidence and back it up. Especially if you are a former international coach. Some of his comments strike me as lazy.

That's it, sometimes I just zone out when he is talking on these shows, as all it becomes is him moaning about nothern hemisphere rugby. The thing is he has some good points to make, just does it in a way which can be really annoying.

On multiple occasions he has come out with stuff like "Lusten, mate....Oim not troyin to beluttle the six nations. But now-one dan here, in the southern hemisphere, cares about it mate. And if we don't start scorin' troys, then...mate, in the next World Cap it's gonna be the same situation"

Stuff like that is just....meh. I dunno, maybe people like hearing that kind of thing - for me I want to hear something more insightful than that.

LorMal

Fair enough - you have a point. However, I prefer a bit of honesty and straight talking to all the bland platitudes we get from most of the ex players.
For example, Against the Head on RTE - what a borefest. Or Thornley and his (not so) hidden agendas. (Not to mention his "COACHING TICKET" - ****e)

Pink Fairy

Elliot Daly looking quite likely to start against Ireland, not something I wanted to hear I must admit.

Rumour mill is saying McCloskey 12, Henshaw 13, VdF 7

Pudsy33

Please Please Please Be true

salmocab

Deleted User wrote: »

Rumour mill is saying McCloskey 12, Henshaw 13, VdF 7

that would be delightful and might make sense that VDF wasn't released last weekend. Would be a bit rough on TOD but I would be sure it wouldn't be a change in the pecking order for future games, yet.

The Rape of Lucretia

salmocab wrote: »

that would be delightful and might make sense that VDF wasn't released last weekend. Would be a bit rough on TOD but I would be sure it wouldn't be a change in the pecking order for future games, yet.

Why not ? If he had a great game why would TOD come back in ?
" Great game there van, you're well up to playing a six nations game away against England, but not up to a home one against Italy".

stephen_n

I can't see how VdF would have got ahead of TOD and Ruddock unless he's absolutely tearing up trees in camp. That would be an absolute curveball. I'm really hoping the McCloskey bit is right though.

salmocab

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Why not ? If he had a great game why would TOD come back in ?
" Great game there van, you're well up to playing a six nations game away against England, but not up to a home one against Italy".

to be fair its not like TOD would have done anything wrong and Im sure that very soon with the way VDF is playing he will be pushing for a regular jersey but one good game won't nail a jersey down unless he turns in an unbelievable performance. Id expect a few changes for Italy and Scotland too in the back row Ruddock deserves a start too and Id say he may well get one at 6.

The Rape of Lucretia

stephen_n wrote: »

I can't see how VdF would have got ahead of TOD and Ruddock unless he's absolutely tearing up trees in camp. That would be an absolute curveball. I'm really hoping the McCloskey bit is right though.

Van is an out and out classic old style tearaway genuine openside flanker. Maybe its time to play one such.

Stander/OMahoney/OBrien can slug it out (to see who is fit probably more than anything else) for the six berth.

Joe moves in mysterious ways.

Pink Fairy

I suppose if TOD and Ruddkock are both out, then VDF starts, but to start him before either in a game of this magnitude for his first start is probably nothing more than a bored hack kite flying

case885

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Van is an out and out classic old style tearaway genuine openside flanker. Maybe its time to play one such.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Stander/OMahoney/OBrien can slug it out (to see who is fit probably more than anything else) for the six berth.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Joe moves in mysterious ways.

Thankfully Joe doesn't use this crazy logic.
Move our best openside to blindside where we have stacks of talent.

MJohnston

LorMal wrote: »

Fair enough - you have a point. However, I prefer a bit of honesty and straight talking to all the bland platitudes we get from most of the ex players.
For example, Against the Head on RTE - what a borefest. Or Thornley and his (not so) hidden agendas. (Not to mention his "COACHING TICKET" - ****e)

Ironically, in my opinion Matt Williams is mostly platitude filled analysis. I think the problem is that when someone reports on a game with an analytic approach, it is mostly factual, and lacking in opinion (some of us - me included - prefer the former, a lot of viewers prefer the latter) - for example Murray Kinsella/Neil Treacy on The 42 - they rarely write their opinions, they just look at why defense didn't work, or the scrum got pummeled, or attack wasn't successful. Meanwhile there are others taking the emotional road, not really looking at the game in detail, just essentially saying how they felt about a match (and maybe throwing in one or two high level observations about tactics).

I can understand why some would prefer the latter approach, because it appeals to the emotions we're all feeling in the aftermath of a win or defeat, but I think you can't say that this approach is anymore 'straight talking' or 'honest' than the analytical approach - objectively the analytical folks are being more honest because they're simply pulling apart the facts on the ground and letting us making up our own minds.

To be honest, I think the emotional approach to punditry belongs only in the immediate pre-match and post-match moments, and when Williams and others keep wheeling it out during downtime weeks like this, it exposes them as not really being all that knowledgeable about the game, at least to the deep level that they, as purported experts, need to display. It basically comes down - okay, yeah, you've got all the yelling or cheering out of your system, now actually let us see why things went the way they did.

Pudsy33

SOB is out no? So VDF just replaces him?

Pink Fairy

Pudsy33 wrote: »

SOB is out no? So VDF just replaces him no?

No?

The Rape of Lucretia

Pink Fairy wrote: »

No?

Pudsy33 wrote: »

SOB is out no? So VDF just replaces him no?

Well no. No 'just'.

Toddy is the obvious choice.

But he is a bit meh. JVDF may well be the future. And if its a tight call, and one or two changes are going to be the introduction of new or newish blood, then Josh could be the man.

Feels its unlikely though. Certainly cant see the McCloskey/Earlsie combo happening. Payne out may have put an end to any chance of Stu getting his chance (patience, it will come), though the McCloskey12, and Henshaw 13 is the outside bet.

Again, could play into JVDF being the nod towards the future.

Bazzo

Pudsy33 wrote: »

SOB is out no? So VDF just replaces him no?

TOD started against Wales when O'Brien was out and also benched ahead of Ruddock and VDF against France so if VDF starts it means he's jumped TOD and Ruddock in the pecking order.

Yeah_Right

MJohnston wrote: »

Ironically, in my opinion Matt Williams is mostly platitude filled analysis. I think the problem is that when someone reports on a game with an analytic approach, it is mostly factual, and lacking in opinion (which is what a lot of us on here prefer) - for example Murray Kinsella/Neil Treacy on The 42 - they rarely write their opinions, they just look at why defense didn't work, or the scrum got pummeled, or attack wasn't successful. Meanwhile there are others taking the emotional road, not really looking at the game in detail, just essentially saying how they felt about a match (and maybe throwing in one or two high level observations about tactics).

I can understand why some would prefer the latter approach, because it appeals to the emotions we're all feeling in the aftermath of a win or defeat, but I think you can't say that this approach is anymore 'straight talking' or 'honest' than the analytical approach - objectively the analytical folks are being more honest because they're simply pulling apart the facts on the ground and letting us making up our own minds.

To be honest, I think the emotional approach to punditry belongs only in the immediate pre-match and post-match moments, and when Williams and others keep wheeling it out during downtime weeks like this, it exposes them as not really being all that knowledgeable about the game, at least to the deep level that they, as purported experts, need to display. It basically comes down - okay, yeah, you've got all the yelling or cheering out of your system, now actually let us see why things went the way they did.

You nailed it. As an expert pundit, when you've had a day or two to analyse the match then do that. Take your emotions out of it and do your job.


Also I'd love to JvdF get a start. I think he could be brilliant.

former total

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Rumour mill is saying McCloskey 12, Henshaw 13, VdF 7

Can you clarify?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Is TOD not sick or something? Or was he sick recently or am I making that up?

The Rape of Lucretia

A reference to the source of the rumour beyond http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98831006&postcount=9850 ?

Pudsy33

Pink Fairy wrote: »

No?

Sorry, overuse of no. Would like to see TOD start and VDF on the bench.

The Lost Sheep

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Is TOD not sick or something? Or was he sick recently or am I making that up?

He had been. Now recovered.
http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/22153.php#.VszbnE2zIdU

rsh118

Great rumour. Won't be holding my breath that it's true, but I'm hopeful nonetheless. I'm starting to feel like Ireland is developing actual strength in depth.

The Pheasant2

Is that rumour predicated on Payne being out?