Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

intheclouds · 16-01-2016 08:18PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Again I don't take it personally but you can't generalize, it's my pet peeve. It's inaccurate and just peddling prejudices while expecting to be treated differently yourself.

Of course I can generalise if I want to (although in this instance I was being specific). I don't give a fiddlers about your pet peeves. You can hold a silly opinion and I can hold a different one. Welcome to diversity.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 16-01-2016 08:32PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Again I don't take it personally but you can't generalize, it's my pet peeve. It's inaccurate and just peddling prejudices while expecting to be treated differently yourself.

@electro-bitch
Why would anyone with no interest to have kids talk about them with so many people?

Over the course of 27 years the topic of children has come up pretty often like, it's not like I seek the conversations out. People talk about their kids

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 16-01-2016 08:45PM

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

Parents seem to be a lot more blasé about children than the child-free a lot of the time, world changing, perspective shifting, blah blah blah love thing notwithstanding. I can't get my head around the mindset where creating a human consciousness and body, bringing it into existence and committing to guiding it through life...is just something you do because your other kid is bored, or to lock a boyfriend/girlfriend down, or just on the off-chance that you'd regret it if you didn't, or, as above, because your periods are annoying you. It's kind of ironic that it's the child-free who get accused of being self-centred then.

You know what I'm reading this back, and yeah, I worded that really badly, the last sentence doesn't really have anything to do with anything; I was annoyed at my friend and...went a bit wide. I'm probably a bit oversensitive because I'm under pressure from family to have children and I have no intention of having them, and I get more annoyed over this kind of thing than is really worth the bother.

I honestly didn't mean to generalise or insult anyone though, so I'm sorry if I did

meeeeh · 16-01-2016 09:50PM

Just to make clear I genuinely wasn't insulted.

R.D. aka MR.D · 17-01-2016 04:18AM

meeeeh wrote: »

@electro-bitch
Why would anyone with no interest to have kids talk about them with so many people?

You would have to pretty damn rude to shut down every single person who wants to talk about kids with you.

As some earlier posts mentioned being a good friend is taking some interest in each others lives. I'd be a pretty crappy friend and aunt (!!!) if I refused to discuss children.

Also, that assumes that people who don't want kids have no interest in kids. As I've stated before, I'm adamantly childfree and have always been but I teach kids so would happily talk to you all day about their funny little ways, behavioural problems, language acquisition, peer interaction, the hilarious things they say that make you laugh and so on. I could talk about the nieces and nephews all day long if you let me, between my OH and I we have 10 of them!

I doubt many childfree people leave the room when the topic of kids comes up.

I guess it is a common misconception that childfree people aren't interested in children but it's not true. Some are and some aren't.

meeeeh · 17-01-2016 02:08PM

I didn't get the impression some people in this thread particularly enjoy conversations about kids. Which is perfectly ok and for me perfectly ok to avoid those conversations (you might like them but there are others who don't). Also listening to people when they talk about themselves and their experiences can very interesting as long as they don't start telling you how you should live. I think it's actually necessary to tell people to back off because otherwise resentment just builds up.

Someone telling you that you should have kids to sort out hormones isn't talking about kids, it's being a busybody. The same as would be someone going on about how you need to start eating kale and do some running.

StripedBoxers · 17-01-2016 10:39PM

I'm in my mid-twenties and for most of my life I've known that I don't want kids, I am pretty darn sure about it, and have said it to a few people and every one of those people have said "you'll change your mind", "everyone wants children", "who'll look after you when you're old and grey" among other things.

I was in a relationship for over four years, after the first year everyone was asking and hinting about us having children, never happened obviously and never will but I always found it awkward when people would just assume we'd have kids and we'd say no we would't, it got the point with my family that as soon as they mentioned/hinted at it I would have to straight up and say bluntly that "we're not having children, end of convo" and put a stop to it there and then otherwise we would be questioned left, right and center on a decision that we made that is no ones business bar ours.

A friend of mine is pregnant now, has been with their partner for less than six months and and they are due a baby this summer.

I've no doubt that she planned the pregnancy without her partner knowing, a few years ago she said to me she would love to have a baby as soon as she could and she wants to be a stay at home mum and daddy can go to work and finance everything, really what my friends wants is to be a kept woman.

She hasn't really thought it through though, she see's a baby, a small human who she can dress up, who'll look cute, coo and gurgle etc. She hasn't thought of and doesn't see the practical/reality side of things, her body changing, sleepless nights, constant feeding, changing, winding, walks, nappy changing.

She hasn't thought of the fact that a wee baby will grow into a toddler and will need to be toilet trained, maybe go to nursery/playschool, go onto national school, secondary school etc.

She see's none of the practical side of things. She hasn't thought about the financial implications either, buying a pushchair, cot, car seat, high chair (when the time comes) etc.

For me as much as I love kids, after a few hours I can't wait to hand them back and go back to my own child-free life.

I like being able to go out at night/for a day/away for a weekend at the last minute, if I so wish. I like being able to buy myself nice things etc. that I know I couldn't if I had a child to care and pay for.

I like having my life as it is and not having responsibility for another person.

I was a carer for a relative for over a year and it isn't something I would relish again, not at the minute anyway.

While its entirely possible I may change my mind in future I highly doubt I will.

Porkpie · 11-02-2016 04:01PM

I'm a bloke and it's refreshing to read this thread and I'm glad to hear that there are indeed women out there who don't want kids because I definitely don't see kids in my future. I'm on a dating website and on my profile I said that I don't want kids. I get a lot of messages from women saying things like "too bad, you sound really nice, why don't you want kids?" and I even had one saying "I feel really bad for you". I find it quite irritating to be honest. I notice on most profiles women say they do want kids and I know if I lied I'd get way more attention but I'd rather be honest!

I don't want kids because, well I guess I just value my freedom and independence too much. I see people with kids and they have no life for themselves. Any time I see couples with little kids having tantrums I just think f**k that, I don't need that hassle in my life. And although I know kids can bring joy and meaning into parents' lives, I also see the misery and hardship they cause. I think the research shows (correct me if I'm wrong) that childless marriages are actually happier.

meeeeh · 11-02-2016 04:17PM

You can probably find research for everything but the one I heard was that childless people are happier younger and people with kids are happier when they kick kids out of the house or something similar.

Source: https://www.mpg.de/1196914/older_parents_happier

One eyed Jack · 11-02-2016 04:42PM

Porkpie wrote: »

I think the research shows (correct me if I'm wrong) that childless marriages are actually happier. [/SIZE]

You're correct, that's appears to be what research shows alright, or at least, this research shows anyway -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/wellbeing/10567260/Happier-relationships-for-couples-without-children.html

Although the same research indicates that mothers are the 'happiest' of all groups...

I'd love to see the methodology in how they conducted that survey.

meeeeh · 11-02-2016 04:48PM

That study found that childless people are happier in their relationship but when general happiness is measured mothers are happiest, women without kids are least happy and men don't like kids. It explains so much.

mzungu · 11-02-2016 04:57PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're correct, that's appears to be what research shows alright, or at least, this research shows anyway -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/wellbeing/10567260/Happier-relationships-for-couples-without-children.html

Although the same research indicates that mothers are the 'happiest' of all groups...

I'd love to see the methodology in how they conducted that survey.

As the deadline was looming they grabbed a few heads from the canteen :pac:

I would agree though. It would give a more rounded understanding by reading the whole study, as usually the papers cherry pick stuff from it.

R.D. aka MR.D · 12-02-2016 02:32AM

Porkpie wrote: »

I'm a bloke and it's refreshing to read this thread and I'm glad to hear that there are indeed women out there who don't want kids because I definitely don't see kids in my future. I'm on a dating website and on my profile I said that I don't want kids. I get a lot of messages from women saying things like "too bad, you sound really nice, why don't you want kids?" and I even had one saying "I feel really bad for you". I find it quite irritating to be honest. I notice on most profiles women say they do want kids and I know if I lied I'd get way more attention but I'd rather be honest!

I don't want kids because, well I guess I just value my freedom and independence too much. I see people with kids and they have no life for themselves. Any time I see couples with little kids having tantrums I just think f**k that, I don't need that hassle in my life. And although I know kids can bring joy and meaning into parents' lives, I also see the misery and hardship they cause. I think the research shows (correct me if I'm wrong) that childless marriages are actually happier.

I think it's really awful that women message you saying things like that. But don't ever compromise about being childfree just to get a woman's attention because that will only lead to further heartbreak down the line when neither of you are willing to compromise (or should). Having children is not something people should be forced into or out of.

Also seeing kids have tantrums is like my husband-to-be and I's favourite thing, usually we look at each other and say 'glad that's not us' or sometimes we won't say anything and then out of the blue my OH will say 'I'm so happy you don't want kids.' We both teach children so have both had to deal with tantrums first hand and knowing that when you get home from work, you don't have to deal with that is the most amazing feeling!

You'll find a woman who shares your world view!

AvyStreet · 19-02-2016 03:19AM

Hate to hear that that 'old and grey' line is still doing the rounds.
Its so cliche and shallow.

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 01:39PM

I don't know why it's such a taboo. Raising children is such a huge responsibility that I admire people who decide it's not for them. I think a lot of people go ahead and have children because it's the thing to do, without thinking about how equipped they are to bring them up. It's so strange that it's more socially acceptable to be like my 18-year-old cousin and have a baby at a young age, when you've never worked, never lived life as an independent adult, are still totally immature, uneducated and have been with the father for less than a year, than to take the mature decision that having children isn't for you. I work with children and see the results of parents who just weren't equipped. It isn't nice.

One eyed Jack · 20-02-2016 01:58PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I don't know why it's such a taboo. Raising children is such a huge responsibility that I admire people who decide it's not for them. I think a lot of people go ahead and have children because it's the thing to do, without thinking about how equipped they are to bring them up. It's so strange that it's more socially acceptable to be like my 18-year-old cousin and have a baby at a young age, when you've never worked, never lived life as an independent adult, are still totally immature, uneducated and have been with the father for less than a year, than to take the mature decision that having children isn't for you. I work with children and see the results of parents who just weren't equipped. It isn't nice.

Clearly, on the basis of what you've just written, it doesn't appear to be all that socially acceptable at all, never mind being more socially acceptable than not having children at 18 years of age.

eviltwin · 20-02-2016 02:20PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I don't know why it's such a taboo. Raising children is such a huge responsibility that I admire people who decide it's not for them. I think a lot of people go ahead and have children because it's the thing to do, without thinking about how equipped they are to bring them up. It's so strange that it's more socially acceptable to be like my 18-year-old cousin and have a baby at a young age, when you've never worked, never lived life as an independent adult, are still totally immature, uneducated and have been with the father for less than a year, than to take the mature decision that having children isn't for you. I work with children and see the results of parents who just weren't equipped. It isn't nice.

Judgemental much?

Tasden · 20-02-2016 02:25PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Judgemental much?

Also, you only have to look at the AH thread about sense of entitlement and the assumptions made about young mothers to see that they are in no way "socially accepted" or however you wanna put it.

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 02:40PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Clearly, on the basis of what you've just written, it doesn't appear to be all that socially acceptable at all, never mind being more socially acceptable than not having children at 18 years of age.

Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Do you know my cousin? No, you don't. She's one of the most spoiled, immature teenagers I've ever met and now she's in charge of another human life. Yes, I think ideally she should have grown up first, waited a few years and worked on herself before choosing to bring another life into the world. Sorry if that's not PC enough for you. That's my opinion. The general opinion seems to be that having a baby is better than not having a baby, regardless of how equipped you are to handle it. It's way less shocking for people that someone has a baby with absolutely no means of providing for it financially or emotionally (someone of ANY age, my cousin is just an example) than someone saying they never want to have kids.

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 02:41PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Clearly, on the basis of what you've just written, it doesn't appear to be all that socially acceptable at all, never mind being more socially acceptable than not having children at 18 years of age.

Surely it's obvious I'm not talking about having children vs not having children at 18 years of age. I'm saying it's more acceptable to most to have a child with no/few means of providing for it than not to have one ever.

Tasden · 20-02-2016 02:48PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Do you know my cousin? No, you don't. She's one of the most spoiled, immature teenagers I've ever met and now she's in charge of another human life. Yes, I think ideally she should have grown up first, waited a few years and worked on herself before choosing to bring another life into the world. Sorry if that's not PC enough for you. That's my opinion. The general opinion seems to be that having a baby is better than not having a baby, regardless of how equipped you are to handle it. It's way less shocking for people that someone has a baby with absolutely no means of providing for it financially or emotionally (someone of ANY age, my cousin is just an example) than someone saying they never want to have kids.

Ok but I had a child young and am not spoiled or immature. I'm well educated (level 8 and hoping to do part time level 9 in next year or so depending on *my own* finances), I work full time in a well paid job.
I worked on myself while I raised my child (for the majority of her life alone too) and we've grown up together to be pretty decent human beings if i do say so myself.
But continue to make generalisations based solely on your one cousin.
"Society" makes the same generalisations, whether you want to accept that or not.

One eyed Jack · 20-02-2016 03:14PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Am I not allowed to have an opinion? Do you know my cousin? No, you don't. She's one of the most spoiled, immature teenagers I've ever met and now she's in charge of another human life. Yes, I think ideally she should have grown up first, waited a few years and worked on herself before choosing to bring another life into the world. Sorry if that's not PC enough for you. That's my opinion. The general opinion seems to be that having a baby is better than not having a baby, regardless of how equipped you are to handle it. It's way less shocking for people that someone has a baby with absolutely no means of providing for it financially or emotionally (someone of ANY age, my cousin is just an example) than someone saying they never want to have kids.

I never implied you weren't allowed have an opinion. By all means, but other people have an equal right to challenge your opinion if you're using your cousin as an example of society's general attitude towards young women who have children (regardless of anything else they have going on in their lives). I don't need to know your cousin, or her personal circumstances, to point out to you how you're contradicting yourself. I don't even need to justify pointing out how wrong you are by pointing to the number of well educated young women in society who are also mothers, yet daily people who are complete strangers to them pass judgement upon them, because they feel it is their right to do so.

Is that PC enough for you?

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Surely it's obvious I'm not talking about having children vs not having children at 18 years of age. I'm saying it's more acceptable to most to have a child with no/few means of providing for it than not to have one ever.

By using your 18 year old cousin as an example, what else should anyone do only compare like for like on that basis? I don't know what circles you mix in that gave you the impression that it's more socially acceptable to have a child with no means of taking care of it, than it is to choose not to have children. It isn't as though they come with a set of instructions and a receipt if a person doesn't live up to your standard of how to raise their children properly.

Genuinely, I understand where you're coming from, as it's an all too common attitude, but I wouldn't have expected it from someone who actually works with children and offers support to their parents. You... do offer support to the children's parents as part of your work, right?

eviltwin · 20-02-2016 03:22PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

Surely it's obvious I'm not talking about having children vs not having children at 18 years of age. I'm saying it's more acceptable to most to have a child with no/few means of providing for it than not to have one ever.

Society doesn't say that, it's just accepts that it happens. Anyone can find themselves in that situation btw, age doesn't indicate ability to parent.

Of course 18 is not the ideal age but unless you think she should have an abortion or have her child removed at birth what can people do but support her and help her make the best of it. It's not the end of the world.

Fwiw I was pregnant at 18 and was dating my boyfriend less than 3 months. I was a complete idiot and he wasn't much better but we managed to continue with our education, get jobs, buy a house etc. My daughter is in university and a decent kid. I really hope your cousins family are more supportive than you are being.

R.D. aka MR.D · 20-02-2016 04:37PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Society doesn't say that, it's just accepts that it happens.

This is the reason that it might appear more acceptable. People would think you were an awful witch if you started on at a young mother/father about the baby that was already here.

Because a childfree person doesn't have the non-existent child then it's not seen as so rude to comment on it. Many people seem to think that it's a changeable thing and something that you can be convinced into.

The same way people love to tell you how sugar or meat cause cancer. You're hardly going to walk up to a cancer patient and start lecturing them about their lifestyle choices. That would just be a horrible thing to do.

A lot of people like to get on at young single parents but sure it's shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. You'd have to have a hard heart to not sympathise with the person who may be struggling financially or emotionally because of a choice they made and can't change. People on the internet chat a big game but I'd bet most of them wouldn't be so horrible to a young person in their own family if they found themselves in that situation.

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 05:09PM

Tasden wrote: »

Ok but I had a child young and am not spoiled or immature. I'm well educated (level 8 and hoping to do part time level 9 in next year or so depending on *my own* finances), I work full time in a well paid job.
I worked on myself while I raised my child (for the majority of her life alone too) and we've grown up together to be pretty decent human beings if i do say so myself.
But continue to make generalisations based solely on your one cousin.
"Society" makes the same generalisations, whether you want to accept that or not.

I'm not talking about you. It's not about you. Once again, I'm using the example of my cousin as someone who is not really equipped to have a child. Her age is ONE of the issues. Of course it's perfectly possible to bring up your child well regardless of having no education, no job, no father in the picture, a very low level of maturity (she acts 13-14 rather than 18) but it's hardly ideal, is it? Nobody questioned her decision, yet when I say I might not have kids, I get a sea of appalled and aghast faces, as if the very suggestion is extremely controversial.

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 05:11PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I never implied you weren't allowed have an opinion. By all means, but other people have an equal right to challenge your opinion if you're using your cousin as an example of society's general attitude towards young women who have children (regardless of anything else they have going on in their lives). I don't need to know your cousin, or her personal circumstances, to point out to you how you're contradicting yourself. I don't even need to justify pointing out how wrong you are by pointing to the number of well educated young women in society who are also mothers, yet daily people who are complete strangers to them pass judgement upon them, because they feel it is their right to do so.

Is that PC enough for you?

By using your 18 year old cousin as an example, what else should anyone do only compare like for like on that basis? I don't know what circles you mix in that gave you the impression that it's more socially acceptable to have a child with no means of taking care of it, than it is to choose not to have children. It isn't as though they come with a set of instructions and a receipt if a person doesn't live up to your standard of how to raise their children properly.

Genuinely, I understand where you're coming from, as it's an all too common attitude, but I wouldn't have expected it from someone who actually works with children and offers support to their parents. You... do offer support to the children's parents as part of your work, right?

Maybe we come from very different social backgrounds. Where I come from, it's common, acceptable and even expected that girls will have at least one child by the age of 20. It's the thing to do. Nobody questions that, yet suggest that you might not have any kids and they look at your as if you've just poisoned their dog.

eviltwin · 20-02-2016 05:16PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I'm not talking about you. It's not about you. Once again, I'm using the example of my cousin as someone who is not really equipped to have a child. Her age is ONE of the issues. Of course it's perfectly possible to bring up your child well regardless of having no education, no job, no father in the picture, a very low level of maturity (she acts 13-14 rather than 18) but it's hardly ideal, is it? Nobody questioned her decision, yet when I say I might not have kids, I get a sea of appalled and aghast faces, as if the very suggestion is extremely controversial.

There is a difference, in her case it's already happened. Do you really think if she has announced to the world before the fact that she was trying to conceive that she wouldn't have faced a sea of criticism? She is now pregnant so it's all moot anyway. Unless you think her family should be trying to encourage her to have an abortion or put the baby up for adoption there isn't much they can do but make the best of it.

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 05:19PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Society doesn't say that, it's just accepts that it happens. Anyone can find themselves in that situation btw, age doesn't indicate ability to parent.

Of course 18 is not the ideal age but unless you think she should have an abortion or have her child removed at birth what can people do but support her and help her make the best of it. It's not the end of the world.

Fwiw I was pregnant at 18 and was dating my boyfriend less than 3 months. I was a complete idiot and he wasn't much better but we managed to continue with our education, get jobs, buy a house etc. My daughter is in university and a decent kid. I really hope your cousins family are more supportive than you are being.

Again, completely missing the point and stating the obvious. Of course we're all supportive. I'm not suggesting for one minute that my cousin isn't doing the best she can and that everyone else isn't helping out as much as they can. I'm simply saying that where I'm from, deciding not to have kids because you don't feel you can do a good job or don't feel in a position to support them is taboo, yet going ahead and having kids when you can barely look after yourself is considered the norm. That doesn't make sense to me. That's the point I'm making.

LeeLooLee · 20-02-2016 05:23PM

eviltwin wrote: »

There is a difference, in her case it's already happened. Do you really think if she has announced to the world before the fact that she was trying to conceive that she wouldn't have faced a sea of criticism? She is now pregnant so it's all moot anyway. Unless you think her family should be trying to encourage her to have an abortion or put the baby up for adoption there isn't much they can do but make the best of it.

She did tell people. Her mam was delighted because she wanted grandchildren and loads of her friends already have babies. She would have faced way, way more social pressure if she'd said she never wanted kids!

Tasden · 20-02-2016 05:24PM

LeeLooLee wrote: »

I'm not talking about you. It's not about you. Once again, I'm using the example of my cousin as someone who is not really equipped to have a child. Her age is ONE of the issues. Of course it's perfectly possible to bring up your child well regardless of having no education, no job, no father in the picture, a very low level of maturity (she acts 13-14 rather than 18) but it's hardly ideal, is it? Nobody questioned her decision, yet when I say I might not have kids, I get a sea of appalled and aghast faces, as if the very suggestion is extremely controversial.

Well its either about your cousin and your cousin alone in which case that is not "young mothers" generally. Or its about young mothers generally which is the category I once fell into.

You cannot say nobody questioned her decision. You're questioning it right now! Have a read of any AH thread on entitlement/single mothers/social welfare and you'll see plenty of people questioning her decision despite knowing nothing about her. Try walking around with a pram at 17/18/19 years of age and you'll soon know very well who is questioning your decision. Bringing your child to hospital at 18/19 and knowing exactly why the doctors are asking certain questions that they wouldn't dream of asking an older parent. Attending your child's first day of school and standing out like a sore thumb because you're the youngest there- once again it is always glaringly obvious who is questioning/judging your decision in those moments. And even worse, they are feeling perfectly entitled to do so despite knowing absolutely nothing about your situation.

Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

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