Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

Sheep in a field

Kids sound very expensive and a huge responsibility.

If you can barely afford to sustain yourself and your not in a steady job etc not sure how one could even consider it, apart from the obvious when it just happens and ya decided to keep it.

Airyfairy12

Ive a friend like this too. Im 27 and single and she's tried to set me up with men from her partners work that ive no interest in. Its kind of annoying to meet them out for a drink to discover they've brought along a surprise date for me. I met my cousin for a drink a few months ago, she was married at 24 and has kids...(now in her 30's) made a comment about how im almost 30 and really should be married.
I could never be somebody's wife!

Gatica

Agh! That is so annoying!

but sure you'll probably change your mind ... LOL! Jk...

Jenneke87

A bit of a taboo? Based on the reactions I get it must still be a rather big one. People always reassure me that in a few years time I'll want to have children. That's really the moment that I want to tell them that I had multiple abortions, one of them because the baby was either going to die at birth or shortly after(due to heavy medication I was on at the time) and a variety of other reasons, and that, after going through all of that I'm pretty damn sure I don't want to have them, but I fear that if i say that out loud I won't survive...So I just tell them that I thought it through and won't change my mind, but it's unimaginable for some people. I want to look into sterilization and over here it's 1450,-, it's crazy, it's not nearly half as much for a man. And if I do decide to go ahead with it, I'm questioned like a stupid child. Ironically enough nobody asked me any questions when I got pregnant, which you'd think is a far greater responsibility than not getting pregnant...oh wait, that's the natural thing to do, and it will always turn out well.

Catari Jaguar

In a future of overpopulation, TTIP, endangered animals, pollution, corporations having more rights than people, pressurised exam based schooling for a conveyor belt through life in an unfulfilling job to make money for some faceless shareholders, lack of resources, being charged for basic necessities like water and probably air... I think it is genuinely selfish to bring a child into this world. TBH, I barely want to live on this ****ty planet and I couldn't inflict that bleak future upon a child.

Ruad

Jenneke87 wrote: »

A bit of a taboo? Based on the reactions I get it must still be a rather big one. People always reassure me that in a few years time I'll want to have children. That's really the moment that I want to tell them that I had multiple abortions, one of them because the baby was either going to die at birth or shortly after(due to heavy medication I was on at the time) and a variety of other reasons, and that, after going through all of that I'm pretty damn sure I don't want to have them, but I fear that if i say that out loud I won't survive...So I just tell them that I thought it through and won't change my mind, but it's unimaginable for some people. I want to look into sterilization and over here it's 1450,-, it's crazy, it's not nearly half as much for a man. And if I do decide to go ahead with it, I'm questioned like a stupid child. Ironically enough nobody asked me any questions when I got pregnant, which you'd think is a far greater responsibility than not getting pregnant...oh wait, that's the natural thing to do, and it will always turn out well.

Ok, I'll get flamed for asking, but how did multiple abortions come about? Anyone I know who's had one has gone to great lengths, double contraception etc, to ensure it wouldn't happen again. I'm not trying to stir, I know you have probably been very unfortunate. Feel free not to answer.

Malari

Ruad wrote: »

Ok, I'll get flamed for asking, but how did multiple abortions come about? Anyone I know who's had one has gone to great lengths, double contraception etc, to ensure it wouldn't happen again. I'm not trying to stir, I know you have probably been very unfortunate. Feel free not to answer.

Presumably because abortions can occur when it becomes unhealthy or unsafe to continue a pregnancy, and not just when a pregnancy is unwanted.

Parchment

I wouldnt call it taboo but some people think its very odd and many would believe you are not having kids due to a medical reason rather than choice.

I am 32, in a long term relationship. I have NEVER wanted kids - zero interest. Sure some of them are cute but i much prefer my flexibility in life, my freedom, the better finances that being childless brings and many other things.

Personally i think people who think every woman should have children are uneducated ignorant people who are possibly religious. Most people accept that its your choice and move on.

Parchment

eviltwin wrote: »

Well said Sapphire. The system is so unfair towards women. If you know you don't want children you can't easily avail of sterilisation but if you are unlucky enough to find yourself pregnant you can't terminate it either.

This. It makes me rage.

Sheep in a field

Interesting article in the independent. From Niamh Horan.

About children, having them,ego,legacy, not having them, working, and the world population.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/the-sisterhood-dont-like-the-truth-women-cant-have-it-all-34754817.html

Jenneke87

Ruad wrote: »

Jenneke87 wrote: »

A bit of a taboo? Based on the reactions I get it must still be a rather big one. People always reassure me that in a few years time I'll want to have children. That's really the moment that I want to tell them that I had multiple abortions, one of them because the baby was either going to die at birth or shortly after(due to heavy medication I was on at the time) and a variety of other reasons, and that, after going through all of that I'm pretty damn sure I don't want to have them, but I fear that if i say that out loud I won't survive...So I just tell them that I thought it through and won't change my mind, but it's unimaginable for some people. I want to look into sterilization and over here it's 1450,-, it's crazy, it's not nearly half as much for a man. And if I do decide to go ahead with it, I'm questioned like a stupid child. Ironically enough nobody asked me any questions when I got pregnant, which you'd think is a far greater responsibility than not getting pregnant...oh wait, that's the natural thing to do, and it will always turn out well.

Ok, I'll get flamed for asking, but how did multiple abortions come about? Anyone I know who's had one has gone to great lengths, double contraception etc, to ensure it wouldn't happen again. I'm not trying to stir, I know you have probably been very unfortunate. Feel free not to answer.

The first one, I admit was a drunken one night stand. I was 20 and had just moved to Ireland and thought that the MAP was freely available here like it is in my native country only to be told that I had to make a doctor's appointment. I didn't knew anybody and had no idea where to get emergency contraception. Stupidly, I thought I would be okay but found myself pregnant three weeks later.

All three pregnancies were horrendous. I vomited like a fountain and lost a lot of weight, and being underweigh already things became dangerous quickly. 6 weeks in I had lost already 25 pounds and weighed no more than 80-85 pounds. I literally could keep nothing down. My hair started to fall out, I could not walk unaided, if I did, I staggered because my legs could no longer support my weight. My stomach was bruised from all the vomiting.

The second time was with a long term partner: we used condoms, but obviously managed to slip up. I didn't use the pill as I had bad experiences with that. The pregnancy was just as bad as the first one. Huge weight loss, unable to keep even water down, constantly cold because my body could not keep itself warm anymore. A friend who lived nearby would come by every day to empty the bucket I used to throw up in, tidy the place and shower me, as it was too dangerous to use the stairs in case I collapsed. One night she forget to place the bucket beside my bed and when I had to throw up I tried to make it to the sink but collapsed and hit my head against the wall. I was knocked out flat. Luckily, she and her mother came by again that night and brought me to a hospital.

Third time was the same reason as above. I had been trying various contraceptives but all had side-effects. We both swore this would never happen again and felt like a rightpair of idiots when I was pregnant again. As soon as I knew, I knew how it was going to end. I'm now looking into getting a sterilization but it's a lot of money and I'm not anywhere near it So how did it happen?: just very unlucky(and part stupid) I'd say.

meeeeh

Sheep in a field wrote: »

Interesting article in the independent. From Niamh Horan.

About children, having them,ego,legacy, not having them, working, and the world population.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/the-sisterhood-dont-like-the-truth-women-cant-have-it-all-34754817.html

I started writing more detailed reply but I just couldn't be bothered. However I would like to point out that her thinking she says it as it is doesn't actually mean she says it as it is. Whenever I read tripe like opinion piece above paying for subscription to Irish Times seems very good investment.

Sheep in a field

meeeeh wrote: »

However I would like to point out that her thinking she says it as it is doesn't actually mean she says it as it is.

I'm struggling to make sense of this sentence??

By the way I agree that the independent is a rag and Irish Times is better.

If you clear your cookies/history you can circumvent the free article limit in the Irish Times

meeeeh

Sheep in a field wrote: »

I'm struggling to make sense of this sentence??

By the way I agree that the independent is a rag and Irish Times is better.

If you clear your cookies/history you can circumvent the free article limit in the Irish Times

I worded it very badly but they is no point rephrasing previous post because it wil only confuse things. Just because she thinks something is the fact it doesn't necessarily mean it is the fact. In her opinion she is attacked because people can't handle the truth. I think she is attacked because she is making generalisations that are usually based on very little but her opinion.

Nobody has it all but there are people who managed to strike good balance between work and family, not necessarily in every period of their lives but in general. She makes couple of phrases how things would be so much better if mothers didn't work (yeah things were so much better when women didn't have their income, a lot less broken homes then), adds a bit about unhappy kids (because there are no studies which show time spent in good quality preschool programmes is beneficial) and then obligatory dig at capitalism (let's bring back feudalism).

She is just regurgitating age old cliches and presenting them as common sense. As if common sense can't be wrong.

PressRun

Can't stand Niamh Horan, personally. Talks an awful lot of ****e, imo.

Sapphire

PressRun wrote: »

Can't stand Niamh Horan, personally. Talks an awful lot of ****e, imo.

In this article she absolutely does. I love the way that non-mothers have such an insight into what it's like to be a full time employed mother. :rolleyes: Could she make it sound any more grim?

I think its hilarious the way they trot out that we are somehow abandoning our children to orphanage-type of crèches while the reality is that approaching the age of 1 and upwards, a child needs socialisation, needs interaction with other people outside their parents. They need to play with other kids in order to learn. They learn to share their toys. Learn to take their turn. They learn from watching older kids in play, develop and improve their life skills by doing this. They have friends of different religions, ethnic background and disabilities, so anyone 'different' isn't even a concept for them. Would they learn as much in the home with their mother?

The old adage that it takes a village to raise a child still holds. Parents and the parental bond is in no way affected by a child going to full time childcare and most parents pick a form of childcare that enables their child to thrive.

All I can see in that article is her bashing working mothers. What's remotely feminist about that?

sullivlo

Sapphire wrote: »

In this article she absolutely does. I love the way that non-mothers have such an insight into what it's like to be a full time employed mother. :rolleyes: Could she make it sound any more grim?

I think its hilarious the way they trot out that we are somehow abandoning our children to orphanage-type of crèches while the reality is that approaching the age of 1 and upwards, a child needs socialisation, needs interaction with other people outside their parents. They need to play with other kids in order to learn. They learn to share their toys. Learn to take their turn. They learn from watching older kids in play, develop and improve their life skills by doing this. They have friends of different religions, ethnic background and disabilities, so anyone 'different' isn't even a concept for them. Would they learn as much in the home with their mother?

The old adage that it takes a village to raise a child still holds. Parents and the parental bond is in no way affected by a child going to full time childcare and most parents pick a form of childcare that enables their child to thrive.

All I can see in that article is her bashing working mothers. What's remotely feminist about that?

Couldn't agree more. I don't want to turn this into a "Niamh Horan" bashing thread, but she seems to do very little research into her articles, and seems to just want to push her own agenda in terms of what she thinks and what she wants everyone else to believe.

I think that it's horrific that in this day and age women are denied a choice about their life, their procreation and their health. There's a whole lot more at play than just the 8th ammendment here. This runs way deeper.

I want kids. One of my friends does not. She has her own reasons - the main one being that she is so freaked out by the whole idea of pregnancy (I think she referred to a baby inside a womb as being a parasite!), and she can't even be involved in a discussion about childbirth - she has to leave the room. She likes kids, but she doesn't ever want them. I can accept that. However some of our other friends just say "Oh you'll grow out of that phase" or "ah but once you have kids you'll realise what you were missing out on".

Eh. No thanks.

I work in research. It's the nature of the beast that work comes first. Publish or perish I think is the common phrase. Any significant gaps on your CV in terms of publications need to be explained. The first 5 years post-PhD are vital. So most of my friends will put off having kids because of that - which is fair enough and entirely their own choice. However lots of people don't understand that! We worked bloody hard to get to where we are, surely it should be our choice if we want to focus on our career for a few years rather than our role in baby making?

There are now grants and incentives for women who have taken time off to have a family - they're women only grants and aimed at those women who have babies and stay at home for a while or don't engage in active research. However that's not explicitly written on them, but it's what they're for.

Sapphire

Someone close to me did three years of an ordinary degree, two years of a masters and had 4 years post grad training and study and further exams on the job in order to qualify at what she does. And she now has kids.

Are we supposed to tell someone that her 9+ years (add three more years of studying for the LC subjects to get her to her first choice on her CAO) of busting her arse should now be tossed aside so that she can become a housewife and helpmeet to The Man and that's the only way she can be a Good Mother? I thought we were decades past that.

And what's struck me about her article is there is not a single mention of the hours that Dad works and also 'neglects' his child by dumping them to be raised by wolves by childcare workers.

I think that MammyBashing articles are deliberate - like this one. They know it gets column inches, that it would be controversial and raise their profile. And I think that's all this article is - sh!t stirring for notoriety.

Dolbert

Nail on the head. I have to laugh at her assertion that mothers are working outside the home because they're trying to "have it all". Eh, no love, they're mostly working because a single income is rarely enough for today's families and even if it's because they simply *want* to work, what on earth is wrong with that? Are fathers who work trying to "have it all" too? Urgh, I hate even giving that clickbait oxygen tbh.

eviltwin

She's a poor excuse for a journalist, she's desperate to make herself the story a la Katie Hopkins. I don't know why people give her the validation by discussing her.

Gatica

Also, I don't know where she got the idea that 60s and 70s Russians were raised away from parents. I know enough Russians of that age bracket to know it's a load of bull. Maybe it happened in some part of the country, but it certainly didn't affect all of it. And Russia still has one of the best maternity leave and benefits, as do many eastern European countries. In fact Europe could do well to learn from some of those, apart from paternity leave maybe, as fathers' right still aren't as well recognised.

I bet if you changed the target gender of that article it would sound ridiculous. It's insulting to men as well as women. Men are seen as not capable enough, or not nurturing enough to care for their kids, and women are seen as abandoning them if they're not stay at home mums. The conversation regarding work flexibility needs to be had. That's not the same thing as saying that droves of women are somehow handicapping their kids development by working.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I doubt even 10% of the reason why she writes that nonsense is because it's something she actually believes in. She's purely looking for notice and she's figured out this stuff pisses people off.

Even at that trololol level of journalism though, she's not good. She hasn't thought through her 'argument' at all. She was interviewed on Moncrieff one time and he was getting so frustrated, you literally couldn't even argue with the woman, just seemed like she was making it up as she went along

sullivlo

Mod

Just a friendly reminder, we don't want to turn this into a discussion about the journalistic merits (or lack thereof) of any particular journalist. By all means feel free to discuss the context of the current (clickbait) article, however try to avoid mention of other bits and bobs if at all possible.

(Not directed at any one poster - just to try and keep this on topic as it is an important/relevant discussion!)

Ruad

Jenneke87 wrote: »

The first one, I admit was a drunken one night stand. I was 20 and had just moved to Ireland and thought that the MAP was freely available here like it is in my native country only to be told that I had to make a doctor's appointment. I didn't knew anybody and had no idea where to get emergency contraception. Stupidly, I thought I would be okay but found myself pregnant three weeks later.

All three pregnancies were horrendous. I vomited like a fountain and lost a lot of weight, and being underweigh already things became dangerous quickly. 6 weeks in I had lost already 25 pounds and weighed no more than 80-85 pounds. I literally could keep nothing down. My hair started to fall out, I could not walk unaided, if I did, I staggered because my legs could no longer support my weight. My stomach was bruised from all the vomiting.

The second time was with a long term partner: we used condoms, but obviously managed to slip up. I didn't use the pill as I had bad experiences with that. The pregnancy was just as bad as the first one. Huge weight loss, unable to keep even water down, constantly cold because my body could not keep itself warm anymore. A friend who lived nearby would come by every day to empty the bucket I used to throw up in, tidy the place and shower me, as it was too dangerous to use the stairs in case I collapsed. One night she forget to place the bucket beside my bed and when I had to throw up I tried to make it to the sink but collapsed and hit my head against the wall. I was knocked out flat. Luckily, she and her mother came by again that night and brought me to a hospital.

Third time was the same reason as above. I had been trying various contraceptives but all had side-effects. We both swore this would never happen again and felt like a rightpair of idiots when I was pregnant again. As soon as I knew, I knew how it was going to end. I'm now looking into getting a sterilization but it's a lot of money and I'm not anywhere near it So how did it happen?: just very unlucky(and part stupid) I'd say.

I'm sorry to hear that. I honestly believe sterilisations should be free in some cases, or at the very least available to whoever wants them without having to go privately to Marie Stopes.

Dog Man Star

intheclouds wrote: »

Ugh. Hate this attitude. So patronising. You can't possibly know or understand the depth of another persons love for anyone! It's completely subjective.

Perhaps your love for your child transcends all other love you have experienced but it's not like that for everyone.

My mother chose her love for my father over love for her kids, her bond with him was stronger than any bond with us.

A parent's bond with their child is beyond what you can understand. You don't have children, end of argument. It is a love you will never understand.

That's a fact. Tough. It's more than you and the dogs or your humanist husband.

And you know what? It's amazing. Having a child is the greatest emotion a human can feel, to have a tiny baby grow in your care into his/her independence, every day is extraordinary.

Dog Man Star

I genuinely feel sorry for women who choose not to have children. They will never know what they are missing. Your baby, your child is everything, the reason you wake up, the reason you sleep.

They bring you more joy than you will ever know, the kiss of your baby girl, who screams with excitement to see you.

Dog Man Star

I watched my daughter watching Frozen again when I came home from work. She spins and sings and enjoys every moment of the film.

All my worries disintegrate when I see her dancing. I have been blessed with three children, I adore them and my wonderful wife who takes care of them all day, god bless her. I would never swap places.

The money is house money, I spend less than all combined, I don't care, my family are my life. Money and career is meaningless.

eviltwin

Dog Man Star wrote: »

I genuinely feel sorry for women who choose not to have children. They will never know what they are missing. Your baby, your child is everything, the reason you wake up, the reason you sleep.

They bring you more joy than you will ever know, the kiss of your baby girl, who screams with excitement to see you.

I have kids but even I think that's a load of old codswallop. Kids can do all of the above but only if you want them and are prepared for the hard work. If you're not really into it then it would be completely remiss to bring a child into the world you don't really want. My mother never wanted kids and her children suffered greatly for it.

Addle

Dog Man Star wrote: »

They bring youmore joy than you will ever know, the kiss of your baby girl, who screams with excitement to see you.

Not every child brings every parent joy.
Some children break their parents hearts.
Some parents abandon their children.

Dog Man Star

eviltwin wrote: »

My mother never wanted kids and her children suffered greatly for it.

You need professional help, that is not normal.