Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

IvyTheTerrible · 13-01-2016 11:22AM

Addle wrote: »

Everyone talks about what's going on in their own life.
I'd find it very strange if friends who had kids didn't talk about them!
They should be their priority, of course they're going to talk bout them!

Of course. But they don't JUST talk about that. And they ask about how their friends' lives are going too.
Otherwise, that's not chat, it's a monologue.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-01-2016 05:02PM

Over the weekend I was out with a friend (single mother) and got talking about lady business, I mentioned that I'd recently started the pill because I was murdered with periods.

Oh you shouldn't do that, she says. Terrible to mess with your hormones like that, do you not find it affects your mood a lot, what about breast cancer and so on. I just said yeah well I'd rather all that than the pain I was in before or having to rely on codeine every month.

'You know the easiest answer would just be to have a baby'

Parents seem to be a lot more blasé about children than the child-free a lot of the time, world changing, perspective shifting, blah blah blah love thing notwithstanding. I can't get my head around the mindset where creating a human consciousness and body, bringing it into existence and committing to guiding it through life...is just something you do because your other kid is bored, or to lock a boyfriend/girlfriend down, or just on the off-chance that you'd regret it if you didn't, or, as above, because your periods are annoying you. It's kind of ironic that it's the child-free who get accused of being self-centred then.

intheclouds · 15-01-2016 05:07PM

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

'You know the easiest answer would just be to have a baby'

When I was 15 years old my mother took me to the old family GP because my periods were so heavy and so painful that I had fainted from pain on more than one occasion.

He examined me, and pronounced me fine and when asked what about the problem periods he answered "Youll be grand after youve had a few kids".

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-01-2016 05:11PM

intheclouds wrote: »

When I was 15 years old my mother took me to the old family GP because my periods were so heavy and so painful that I had fainted from pain on more than one occasion.

He examined me, and pronounced me fine and when asked what about the problem periods he answered "Youll be grand after youve had a few kids".

Yeah I've had that too!

IrishAlice · 15-01-2016 05:23PM

I have no plans to have children and bar a small amount of time in my mid twenties when I considered it I have always felt that way.

I would never say never but like many previous posters have said, I just never felt that urge or felt a maternal instinct to have kids.

It could partly be down to the fact that I'm the oldest in my family and spent every summer of my teenage years looking after my siblings while my parents worked.

The first time I told someone I didn't want children was when I was around 12, it was my aunt and she immediately chastised me saying that I shouldn't say that because I mightn't be able to have them when I'm older and would regret it.

I've told a few people over the years how I feel. My closest friends say it doesn't surprise them, that they had figured as much. Then some people I would be close to but haven't known as long look at me like I've shot their puppy when I say I don't want children.

As someone who has felt this way for a long time I would say that there is still a taboo about it but it's not as bad as it used to be.

meeeeh · 15-01-2016 05:32PM

I am a parent and I think anyone who thinks you should have a child just to avoid period pain (or keep the partner and similar nonsense) is a moron. I am pretty sure majority of parents I know wouldn't be blase about having kids at all. Especially outside of low income communities (not a slander, but those have often less options for dealing with unplanned pregnancies and often less opportunities in other fields so there is less to consider when having kids) people are very aware what and how much they will be sacrificing. The pay out can be great when you watch your child count poos in the toilet (yeah I know disgusting

) but not great enough to have children for fickle reasons.

So I don't know where this nonsense how blase parents are about kids is coming from but I am pretty sure stupidity is not one of the side effects of having kids.

intheclouds · 15-01-2016 05:59PM

meeeeh wrote: »

So I don't know where this nonsense how blase parents are about kids is coming from but I am pretty sure stupidity is not one of the side effects of having kids.

Well of course parents are more blase about children - how could it be any other way?

It takes more of an effort NOT to have kids than to have them (in a lot of cases - obviously a huge effort goes in in a minority of cases).

We have already mentioned up thread that a lot of pregnancies have no thought whatsoever going into them - ie, they are accidental. If thats not being blase about having children then I dont know what is!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-01-2016 06:05PM

meeeeh wrote: »

So I don't know where this nonsense how blase parents are about kids is coming from but I am pretty sure stupidity is not one of the side effects of having kids.

Well in my case it's coming from the things that parents have said to me.

'I think we'll have another one, need to socialise the wee fella a bit'

'You know the easiest answer would be just to have a baby'

'Ah just have one, you'll love it when it gets here and what if you wait too long and you can't?'

'Once we got to four it was a bit like...fcuk it, the more the merrier'

These are all things that actual parents have said to me. I'm not saying ALL parents are blasé about it, but it's an attitude that definitely exists

meeeeh · 15-01-2016 06:31PM

intheclouds wrote: »

We have already mentioned up thread that a lot of pregnancies have no thought whatsoever going into them - ie, they are accidental. If thats not being blase about having children then I dont know what is!

Getting pregnant is easy, deciding weather you want to keep the child is not. Or you think people just have kids because they are to lazy to have an abortion.

I don't know what people some of you hang out with but I rarely come accross attitude like mentioned in some posts above or in opening post.

kylith · 15-01-2016 08:47PM

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

Oh you shouldn't do that, she says. Terrible to mess with your hormones like that, do you not find it affects your mood a lot, what about breast cancer and so on. I just said yeah well I'd rather all that than the pain I was in before or having to rely on codeine every month.

'You know the easiest answer would just be to have a baby'

Yeah, why bother with medication when you can just have a baby*

*Side effects may include sagging, stretching, episiotomy, hernia, prolapse, haemorrhoids, depression, infection, your body never being the same again, and having to deal with an ungrateful little sh!t for the rest of your life.

newcar2016 · 15-01-2016 10:43PM

I would have been dead set against kids but recently I've been thinking what happens when you get old and nobody gives two hoots about you.

One eyed Jack · 15-01-2016 10:48PM

newcar2016 wrote: »

I would have been dead set against kids but recently I've been thinking what happens when you get old and nobody gives two hoots about you.

You get old and nobody gives two hoots about you?

That's just as likely to happen with or without children tbh. I don't expect nor want my child to stay in Ireland, I want him to travel and enjoy himself...

(that way I might finally get some peace and quiet

)

newcar2016 · 15-01-2016 10:51PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You get old and nobody gives two hoots about you?

That's just as likely to happen with or without children tbh. I don't expect nor want my child to stay in Ireland, I want him to travel and enjoy himself...

(that way I might finally get some peace and quiet )

That's true I suppose so many emigrate anyway.

R.D. aka MR.D · 16-01-2016 12:27AM

newcar2016 wrote: »

I would have been dead set against kids but recently I've been thinking what happens when you get old and nobody gives two hoots about you.

Never understood this reasoning myself. It's almost like seeing having a child as having a slave. They are born with a job and that job is taking care of you. It seems kind of messed up.

It's also a huge gamble to put time, money and whatever else into something in the hope that they will reciprocate.

I've actually had a lot of childfree people in my family. Several great aunts and uncles on both parents sides. In their old age and sickness, the family still cared for them. Nieces, nephews and cousins. The last childfree aunt that died a few years ago died surrounded by people.

So it's a big risk to put that time and money in when you could be in a worse situation (nobody around because they assume your kids will look after you) than if you hadn't.

TG1 · 16-01-2016 09:00AM

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Never understood this reasoning myself. It's almost like seeing having a child as having a slave. They are born with a job and that job is taking care of you. It seems kind of messed up.

I agree, and having a child is no guarantee that you won't be alone as you get older either. The idea that children will owe you and have to look after you just doesn't happen sometimes. People get busy and have their own lives and their own problems.

An elderly neighbour of ours had two children, and 6 grandchildren, and when she got to old to manage it wasn't any of them that came in to make sure she ate and to help her wash, it was my mother and her home help.

eviltwin · 16-01-2016 12:13PM

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

Well in my case it's coming from the things that parents have said to me.

'I think we'll have another one, need to socialise the wee fella a bit'

'You know the easiest answer would be just to have a baby'

'Ah just have one, you'll love it when it gets here and what if you wait too long and you can't?'

'Once we got to four it was a bit like...fcuk it, the more the merrier'

These are all things that actual parents have said to me. I'm not saying ALL parents are blasé about it, but it's an attitude that definitely exists

Exactly this. I've never met anyone who dealt with an unplanned pregnancy in a blase way. It's always been a source of major concern and a downright disaster in some cases. It's a major change to your life and as I said before not everyone who is faced with one will be okay with having an abortion. Having an unplanned pregnancy doesn't make a person stupid. Some major high horses on this thread.

athtrasna · 16-01-2016 12:19PM

I don't have kids. I'm 39. Told my ex husband I didn't want them, he figured he'd change my mind. Gave into him in the end, kinda tried for two years but didn't get pregnant. Huge factor in our marriage ending but I'm glad it didn't happen, I'm just not maternal. Love my nephews but handing them back is the best part.

Have two very close friends who feel similarly now and it's great to not be the odd one out.

Tasden · 16-01-2016 12:26PM

intheclouds wrote: »

It takes more of an effort NOT to have kids than to have them (in a lot of cases - obviously a huge effort goes in in a minority of cases).

We have already mentioned up thread that a lot of pregnancies have no thought whatsoever going into them - ie, they are accidental. If thats not being blase about having children then I dont know what is!

Accidental pregnancies are not someone being blase- the clue is in the name, it's accidental. They didn't just say "ah **** it I'll let this accident happen". Failed contraception and the likes is not being blase.
If you're talking about somewhat unexpected pregnancies as a result of not using birth control at all that's different, and that's a conscious choice not to use birth control and therefore not an accident imo, and a "see what happens" choice that they are consciously making. Again, wouldn't call that blase if it was a conscious decision not to use contraception, knowing it may result in a pregnancy and being ok with it if it does happen.

One eyed Jack · 16-01-2016 12:41PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Exactly this. I've never met anyone who dealt with an unplanned pregnancy in a blase way. It's always been a source of major concern and a downright disaster in some cases. It's a major change to your life and as I said before not everyone who is faced with one will be okay with having an abortion. Having an unplanned pregnancy doesn't make a person stupid. Some major high horses on this thread.

There's an ironic whiff of 'having children is taboo' off it alright, but it's understandable really, because it's the exact opposite of the 'not having children is taboo' that those posters are more attuned to hearing in society from all around them - family, friends, neighbours, even the poster above whose husband thought he could change her mind!!

There's a certain liberty I suppose for people in being able to vent freely about the fact that they choose not to have children, and it's only in recent times they're even able to make that choice (even here in Ireland, that choice is still limited by our laws), so there's going to be things said that other people are likely to find distasteful, especially online.

I genuinely don't think anyone here would be that thoughtless though to express the same sentiments offline to their family and friends and so on that have children, but their family, friends, neighbours and work colleagues and so on still take it for granted that women aren't supposed to have any choice in the matter.

That's the kind of pressure that leads to women like the poster above giving in to that pressure. It's a horrible feeling that I've heard experienced by a good many of my friends who are women who have chosen not to have children, so when they get the chance to vent, yeah, it may come out as perhaps thoughtless or insensitive, but I don't think it's intended to be. I think it's just borne of intense pent-up frustration finally having an outlet. I wouldn't take it personally.

meeeeh · 16-01-2016 01:29PM

That is fine. I get it when people get annoyed with comments their family or co-workers make. They can be intrusive and condescending. But when people are complaining about attitudes their friends have and decide all parents must be like that is annoying. Instead of asking why are parents like that (or why are people's attitudes like that) they maybe should ask themselves why are my friends like that.

I was always in very mixed group of friends so baby talk possibly wasn't as attractive subject as among all female friends. We never discussed kids before we had them (after that is the usual stuff about childminding, eating habits, age and similar more practical stuff) and I think my mother and partner's parents were even afraid to mention kids around me until I told them I was pregnant. Only then my very excited mum told me that she resigned herself she will have no grand children. Except my father nobody mentions wedding either. Knowing how little pressure there was on me I am either some huge exception or it very much depends what people you surround yourself with.

intheclouds · 16-01-2016 03:41PM

Tasden wrote: »

Accidental pregnancies are not someone being blase- the clue is in the name, it's accidental. They didn't just say "ah **** it I'll let this accident happen". Failed contraception and the likes is not being blase.
If you're talking about somewhat unexpected pregnancies as a result of not using birth control at all that's different, and that's a conscious choice not to use birth control and therefore not an accident imo, and a "see what happens" choice that they are consciously making. Again, wouldn't call that blase if it was a conscious decision not to use contraception, knowing it may result in a pregnancy and being ok with it if it does happen.

Oh come on, I know plenty of people who just never thought of using contraception at all or were lax about use or just put no joined up thinking into the fact that having sex might result in making babies. I could count a dozen people I know who became pregnant that way off the top of my head.

Sure my own sister in law had about 15 "scares" before finally becoming a single mother in her early 20s. Totally blasé about it altogether. Thought having a baby was a fashion statement. After a rude awakening to the reality of motherhood she has not had one pregnancy scare in the ten years since. So yeah, there was no conscious thought about becoming pregnant beforehand. And she was only OK with it because she was too naive to realise the full implications until afterwards.

Another sister in law got pregnant accidently as well. An unwanted surprise but she went ahead because she doesn't agree with abortion.

The distinction here is that if you don't want children it would be impossible to have a blasé attitude. It would literally ruin my life so I am not a bit blasé about it.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 16-01-2016 04:19PM

meeeeh wrote: »

That is fine. I get it when people get annoyed with comments their family or co-workers make. They can be intrusive and condescending. But when people are complaining about attitudes their friends have and decide all parents must be like that is annoying. Instead of asking why are parents like that (or why are people's attitudes like that) they maybe should ask themselves why are my friends like that.

I was always in very mixed group of friends so baby talk possibly wasn't as attractive subject as among all female friends. We never discussed kids before we had them (after that is the usual stuff about childminding, eating habits, age and similar more practical stuff) and I think my mother and partner's parents were even afraid to mention kids around me until I told them I was pregnant. Only then my very excited mum told me that she resigned herself she will have no grand children. Except my father nobody mentions wedding either. Knowing how little pressure there was on me I am either some huge exception or it very much depends what people you surround yourself with.

Well if you're talking about my posts, perhaps I should have been more careful about clarifying that I'm not talking about all parents. I'm talking about things that SOME parents have said to me or about me. I'm obviously not able to make any statements about people I don't hang out with, however the attitudes I've been talking about have been from the mouths of parents. Not the Presidents of Parent Town or Representatives of All Parents ever, but parents none the less.

Just because you haven't experienced certain things doesn't mean they don't happen, and if they don't apply to you there's really no need to take them personally like, I'm sorry if I annoyed you, wasn't my intention

Tasden · 16-01-2016 04:41PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Oh come on, I know plenty of people who just never thought of using contraception at all or were lax about use or just put no joined up thinking into the fact that having sex might result in making babies. I could count a dozen people I know who became pregnant that way off the top of my head.

Sure my own sister in law had about 15 "scares" before finally becoming a single mother in her early 20s. Totally blasé about it altogether. Thought having a baby was a fashion statement. After a rude awakening to the reality of motherhood she has not had one pregnancy scare in the ten years since. So yeah, there was no conscious thought about becoming pregnant beforehand. And she was only OK with it because she was too naive to realise the full implications until afterwards.

Another sister in law got pregnant accidently as well. An unwanted surprise but she went ahead because she doesn't agree with abortion.

The distinction here is that if you don't want children it would be impossible to have a blasé attitude. It would literally ruin my life so I am not a bit blasé about it.

Just because people you know were lax when it came to birth control does not mean that the majority of unexpected or unplanned pregnancies are the result of a blase attitude or stupidity when it comes to birth control.

eviltwin · 16-01-2016 04:46PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Oh come on, I know plenty of people who just never thought of using contraception at all or were lax about use or just put no joined up thinking into the fact that having sex might result in making babies. I could count a dozen people I know who became pregnant that way off the top of my head.

Sure my own sister in law had about 15 "scares" before finally becoming a single mother in her early 20s. Totally blasé about it altogether. Thought having a baby was a fashion statement. After a rude awakening to the reality of motherhood she has not had one pregnancy scare in the ten years since. So yeah, there was no conscious thought about becoming pregnant beforehand. And she was only OK with it because she was too naive to realise the full implications until afterwards.

Another sister in law got pregnant accidently as well. An unwanted surprise but she went ahead because she doesn't agree with abortion.

The distinction here is that if you don't want children it would be impossible to have a blasé attitude. It would literally ruin my life so I am not a bit blasé about it.

What difference does it make to you though. I don't get what your sister in laws actions have to do with your decision not to have children. I am sure you would want her to respect your choices, shouldn't the same go for her choices even if you don't agree with them.

intheclouds · 16-01-2016 04:56PM

eviltwin wrote: »

What difference does it make to you though. I don't get what your sister in laws actions have to do with your decision not to have children. I am sure you would want her to respect your choices, shouldn't the same go for her choices even if you don't agree with them.

Why would you think it makes any difference to me? There was some discussion regarding blasé attitudes and I was simply elucidating what I see as a blasé attitude.

Couldn't care less whether anyone respects my own choices in the matter, I don't need external validation to be secure in my own choices.

intheclouds · 16-01-2016 04:57PM

Tasden wrote: »

Just because people you know were lax when it came to birth control does not mean that the majority of unexpected or unplanned pregnancies are the result of a blase attitude or stupidity when it comes to birth control.

I never said it did?

meeeeh · 16-01-2016 07:06PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Why would you think it makes any difference to me? There was some discussion regarding blasé attitudes and I was simply elucidating what I see as a blasé attitude.

Couldn't care less whether anyone respects my own choices in the matter, I don't need external validation to be secure in my own choices.

But wouldn't then a blase attitude be just as likely by someone who doesn't want children and has an abortion every time they get pregnant. Being blase about kids is not thinking through the consequences and not taking responsibility of parenthood seriously.

If some of us are blase about marriage or single parenthood, or about the exact date we want to become parents it doesn't mean we are blase about kids.

Of course people will be more relaxed when getting pregnant if they want kids than if they don't. But that is like saying that water is wet. It's just a statement that says nothing but implies some sort of irresponsibility if take in conjunction of what electro_bitch was saying.

As for the points of the later, the term parents was used when term my friends should be used. I am not insulted by points made, neither were they taken personally but they were nonsensical if term 'parents' is used. If you would say my friends are blase about kids I would have absolutely no objection.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 16-01-2016 07:20PM

meeeeh wrote: »

But wouldn't then a blase attitude be just as likely by someone who doesn't want children and has an abortion every time they get pregnant. Being blase about kids is not thinking through the consequences and not taking responsibility of parenthood seriously.

If some of us are blase about marriage or single parenthood, or about the exact date we want to become parents it doesn't mean we are blase about kids.

Of course people will be more relaxed when getting pregnant if they want kids than if they don't. But that is like saying that water is wet. It's just a statement that says nothing but implies some sort of irresponsibility if take in conjunction of what electro_bitch was saying.

As for the points of the later, the term parents was used when term my friends should be used. I am not insulted by points made, neither were they taken personally but they were nonsensical if term 'parents' is used. If you would say my friends are blase about kids I would have absolutely no objection.

The people I was quoting weren't all my friends. Doctors, colleagues, extended family members, housemates, classmates. Waitresses, artists, university lecturers. They have two things in common, they were all parents, and they all said words with their mouths that expressed a rather blasé attitude towards bringing a child into the world. Hence my madly controversial statement that some parents have a blasé attitude.

intheclouds · 16-01-2016 07:34PM

meeeeh wrote: »

But wouldn't then a blase attitude be just as likely by someone who doesn't want children and has an abortion every time they get pregnant. Being blase about kids is not thinking through the consequences and not taking responsibility of parenthood seriously.

If some of us are blase about marriage or single parenthood, or about the exact date we want to become parents it doesn't mean we are blase about kids.

Of course people will be more relaxed when getting pregnant if they want kids than if they don't. But that is like saying that water is wet. It's just a statement that says nothing but implies some sort of irresponsibility if take in conjunction of what electro_bitch was saying.

As for the points of the later, the term parents was used when term my friends should be used. I am not insulted by points made, neither were they taken personally but they were nonsensical if term 'parents' is used. If you would say my friends are blase about kids I would have absolutely no objection.

You seem very defensive about a simple observation. Some people are very blasé about having kids. It is indeed a bit "water is wet", so I don't really know why there is any fuss about it.

No one said "Meeeh is very blasé about having kids" so no need to take it so personally.

meeeeh · 16-01-2016 08:08PM

intheclouds wrote: »

No one said "Meeeh is very blasé about having kids" so no need to take it so personally.

Again I don't take it personally but you can't generalize, it's my pet peeve. It's inaccurate and just peddling prejudices while expecting to be treated differently yourself.

@electro-bitch
Why would anyone with no interest to have kids talk about them with so many people?

Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

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