Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

TG1

I've spent ages trying to figure out where to post this so hope I'm in the right place as I'm really curious to see has anybody else had a similar experience to me, and why people think it still happens.

I've just entered my 30's and am single. I have no intention of having children. I love them and think they're great craic as long as I can give them back eventually! I have a career and a time and money consuming hobby, and I like my life as it is.

I also recently had an accident that led to surgery that means if I did ever have a baby it would need to be born by c section. This news didnt bother me as I don't think it will be an issue, but it bothered others that it didn't bother me!

I'm not talking about my parents or relatives, but my friends, who are the same age. Most of them were really upset on my behalf, and kept saying things like I know you're only trying to be strong, and you never know in a few years this might be a problem. One even went as far as to tell me that of course I'm upset, as every woman wants the chance to give birth as nature intended!!

I was a bit horrified by how much this small insignificant side effect upset my friends who I previously thought were pretty modern, rational people! Is it just my circle of friends who have not moved past the idea that everyone must have children or has anyone else encountered this attitude?

eviltwin

Is it still a taboo? I'm the only one of my friends with children, we are all in our 30's. No one outside of their mothers have ever made a thing of it. I suppose it's one thing to be upset for someone who can't have children, I know quite a few people like this and its really hard for them. It's different if someone has made a choice to be child free, why feel sorry or sad for someone living their life the way they want. I don't personally see the attraction long term but they probably think my life looks like hell too I think those who make a big deal of it probably feel you're looking down on them in some ways and that does happen but it goes both ways, I've had snide comments made to me about being a 'breeder' (horrible word) or how my life is over but you just gotta ignore it. I find the ones who comment are just pass remarkable by nature and will always find something to focus on.

RacoonQueen

I'm late 20's now and have always said I don't want children, all for similar reasons as you TG1. I love my life as it is and while I love my nephews, I can walk away when a tantrum starts etc I know my sister and brother are delighted to be parents and that's great for them.
I can't see the attraction at all to being a parent but it's great that there are people who adore parent hood and it's great that them and their partners are so happy. Everyone being different is what nature intended!
I'm open to the idea that I may, very small may change my mind if I end up with the man of everyones dreams and decide I'd like to have kids with him but that is very unlikely. The thoughts of being a parent and the changes to my lifestyle makes me shudder.

eviltwin, they're horrible comments for people to make. Nothing I hate more than the snide, nasty, ill informed comments from people. You can have 10 kids if you want, what business is it of theirs?!

One eyed Jack

TG1 wrote: »

I'm not talking about my parents or relatives, but my friends, who are the same age. Most of them were really upset on my behalf, and kept saying things like I know you're only trying to be strong, and you never know in a few years this might be a problem. One even went as far as to tell me that of course I'm upset, as every woman wants the chance to give birth as nature intended!!

I was a bit horrified by how much this small insignificant side effect upset my friends who I previously thought were pretty modern, rational people! Is it just my circle of friends who have not moved past the idea that everyone must have children or has anyone else encountered this attitude?

I think there's more going on with some of your friends there OP tbh, especially when one of them would say something like that to you. I can't possibly see how a comment like that would be thinking about anyone but themselves.

Having said that though, no, I don't think there's any particular taboo about choosing not to have children. It's simply a case of most people have expectations and milestones set for themselves, and having a career, house and children are the basic milestones (remember when choosing not to get married was unheard of?).

The decision not to have children is for other people an odd one to get their heads around because they feel it's a milestone for them, so they expect it to be a milestone for everyone else, and if you're "foregoing" milestones, that tends to put other peoples noses out of joint!

I've encountered that attitude plenty OP, for numerous reasons.

TG1

Yeh I was really surprised by the reactions because they are all childless themselves but suddenly they were all about "in the future". We had never really talked about kids before but they knew they weren't part of my long term plan and it only came up when they were asking about the plates and screws I had put in, the minute I said they had to stay they were horrified.

It was really surprising as some of the conversations took really surprising turns, with one in particular almost saying that my life would never be full if I didn't have kids! I really thought that attitude was only held by my 94 year old granny and her peers!

I also would have thought even if I wanted kids the c section aspect would be a tiny thing but apparently not for them!

Eviltwin that is terrible! The fact that people think it's ok to say things like that makes me wonder sometimes!!

intheclouds

I am child free by choice and have definitely encountered some strange attitudes and reactions over the years. From people casually asking at weddings if I was looking forward to starting a family with my new husband to one idiot who told me lots of times that all women want babies and that I'd change my mind when I was older and my clock was ticking.

I'm a bit meh about it. If someone started a conversation with me about football I'd change the subject or wander off. Same if some starts talking to me about babies. I'm just not interested.

I'm now close to "past it" age wise and comments have definitely waned with the years, I suppose some people might think I just couldn't so don't bring it up.

Out of a group of 8 female friends in their 40s, 3 of us remain child free. I don't think it's that unusual anymore now that women have "some" control over their reproductive systems, unlike my mother who never wanted children but had no other choice, contraception was illegal and she was married ergo, she had babies.

I do wonder what drives people to have children, sure, they love them etc, but a lot of parents I know seem worn out, harassed etc.. I only know a small few who genuinely seem to love it. But even before the actuality of having them, I don't know or understand what drives people to make the decision to have them. I guess that's why I don't have them!

I think some people have kids because it's the done thing, the expected path of life, and perhaps they don't put much thought into it at all. But others are very driven. Each to their own, I'm happy with my own choices and respect the choices of others.

RacoonQueen

intheclouds wrote: »

I do wonder what drives people to have children, sure, they love them etc, but a lot of parents I know seem worn out, harassed etc.. I only know a small few who genuinely seem to love it. But even before the actuality of having them, I don't know or understand what drives people to make the decision to have them. I guess that's why I don't have them!

haha this is me...I'm all like. But WHY would you WANT kids. Of course, I'm not ignorant so I don't judge people for their choice to have kids. I can see the joy and love of my siblings with their kids or my colleagues of theirs and I when my nephew tells me that he loves me, I love it. But still, god no.
My brother in law would have 6 kids if they could afford it, my brother and his wife would have another if they could afford it.
It's great that we now have the ability to choose whether to have them or not and how many we have to an extent.

R.D. aka MR.D

My husband-to-be and I are childfree by choice.

I've got two different experiences with mothers:

1. My SIL, 3 kids. She loves them and is an amazing mother. She even wants 2 more!! But she has no problem accepting that I don't want them. She has no problem telling me how relieved she is when they go off to granny and she gets time to herself. She admits that sometimes it's boring and they melt your brain and she loves getting away to work for a few days a week. She talks about how gross they are and what having them has done to her body.

2. My oldest friend. 2 kids. Cannot accept that I don't want kids. Says that I'd be much happier (i'm super happy already!). She's obsessed with them. She can't even afford santa presents for them and her and her husband have to live with a family member. But according to her I'd be much happier if I had kids like her.

It makes no sense to me. But then maybe it makes no sense to her that I don't want them. But how do you account for 2 totally different attitudes from people essentially the same age.

What really annoys me is these type of things:
You don't know true love until you have a child.
You're not an 'real' grown up until you've had a child.
You're not a real woman if you don't have a child.

Or the idea that childfree people hate kids. I teach kids from age 4-19 so I don't hate them! I just don't want any. They are bloody hard work for one thing! :pac:

My OH has had to be really firm with his family because they kept saying he doesn't know about life until he has kids. I mean, how rude is that!?! :mad:

My family know that I've never wanted kids for as long as I've been aware that it's a choice and it doesn't just happen when you get married!!

Hopefully, the OH will have a vasectomy before the years end!

People will always be ignorant of people who choose something slightly different from the norm. Also, maybe a lot of people don't think it's a choice, maybe they think it's 'what you do'.

DINKs forever!!!!

Addle

I'm child free by choice.
I think everyone thinks their own choices are the best, so when you make a decision that differs from others, they feel like you undermine their choice.
But our choices are what's best for us, not everyone.

In my mid thirties now. Most people I know have children.
And I'm surprised more people don't have children.
I know some people who really just aren't suited to it.

IvyTheTerrible

I think there is definitely a taboo in saying you don't want children. Not among everybody, but there are always people who say "Oh but you'll change your mind", they can't accept that an adult can make a decision like that.
Also, look at how hard it is for a woman to have her tubes tied!

I have a child and I love being a mum, but I'm not so blinkered as to think that everyone wants that. Each to their own, I say.

Sunny Dayz

I think it still is. I got married 4 years ago and after the first anniversary I started getting the olde "anything stirring yet", "any news?". Getting a second glance when I'm drinking alcohol, bumping into someone and they glance at my tummy area to see if I'm showing any bump.
I've had one person make a few joking comments about my husband because I have a child already from a previous relationship. I have one child, I love him to bits but I don't want another. I'm not a maternal or broody person, early 30's and haven't feel the clock tick yet anyway and also because I have one half reared already I don't want to start at the beginning all over again.

lazygal

I have two children and was the first of my friends to have one, never mind two. I can completely see why people don't want children. I love mine (obviously) but I'm not a particularly 'mumsy' type and I never thought other people's kids were amazing.

I had both of mine by c section, first time 100% for medical reasons, I couldn't even go into labour, second time was about 50% my choice-50% medical reasons. Someone asked me if I had my baby myself or had a section! Really strange attitude.

Children can be a royal pain and they can really restrict your choices in life, like travel and work. You should only have them if you want to have them and you're happy to give up some of your freedom. Having children has moved me from a moderate pro-choice position to what some might call a militant pro-choice stance. I hated pregnancy and I have put my body through a lot to have my children, years of breastfeeding too. Women should only have to go through all that if they choose to do so, and no one else gets to have a say.

TG1

Well I'm relieved to hear it's not just my group of friends stuck in the dark ages! It's such a strange one though, that people feel they have the right to tell you what you should and shouldn't do regarding children.

As I said, I like them but I'm just not that into tying myself down, and although it's a bit selfish, I like my free time and the fact that I can spend money on myself. I couldn't have my horse if I had kids, I couldn't live where I do and I couldn't drive the car I have. I've made a choice based on the fact that I like all those things and don't have an overwhelming desire to have children.

I think its a rational decision but the minute I say it out loud I nearly get patted on the head and told I'm being silly!! Other people make a decision to give up some things in order to have kids and I think that's great, they're deciding based on what makes them happy. So am I! What makes it worse is my family wouldn't dream of putting pressure on me, it all comes from my peer group!

lazygal

People will always have comments.

When you're single, they ask have you met anyone.
When you meet someone, they ask when you're getting engaged/moving in together/married/buying a home.
When you get married, they ask when you're going to start a family (as though you're not a family already!).
When you have one child, they ask when you'll 'give' him/her a sibling.
If you have another one of the same gender, they'll ask if you'll 'go' for the boy/girl.

I was asked about three weeks after having my second if we'll 'go again' . And this person has asked several times, as have other people. Some people just have to know your business, even when you don't want them to.

R.D. aka MR.D

lazygal wrote: »

People will always have comments.

Totally agree, some people are just nosey. The best thing to do with people like that is ask one simple question in response:

Why do you want to know?

Usually shuts them up pretty quickly.

I think the worst for childfree people is when close friends and family do it. Especially when they are dismissive basically saying 'you don't know your own mind'.

intheclouds

I think it probably causes quite a bit of friendship drift away from friends with children too.

For example, I (obviously) wouldn't have any interest in going to a children's party, or a mums group, or any other child based activity, so friends with kids do that stuff together. Or some mums just talk obsessively about their kids all the time so their company becomes tedious. I have experienced (some) mums being almost patronising or condescending towards my interests/ hobbies and implying that I'm just trying to fill the time of my empty life, of course they have no time because they are so busy with the kids!

My life isn't subject to being able to get a babysitter so I can do far more adult activities that friends with children often miss. Or only one of a couple ever comes out so you don't see someone's husband or wife for years.

Fundamentally it comes down to different interests I suppose, people's lives moving in different ways.

intheclouds

intheclouds wrote: »

I have experienced (some) mums being almost patronising or condescending towards my interests/ hobbies and implying that I'm just trying to fill the time of my empty life

I've had that as well. Being in your 30s and going out is apparently quite sad and pathetic, and we'll wake up alone and too late to have children one day :rolleyes:

intheclouds

bluewolf wrote: »

I've had that as well. Being in your 30s and going out is apparently quite sad and pathetic, and we'll wake up alone and too late to have children one day :rolleyes:

Going out? For me it was studying. I mean, why do I need a second degree, unrelated to my career path, sure I'm only wasting money and time on it! And for what? It won't fulfill me like a baby apparently.

seamus

TG1 wrote: »

I also recently had an accident that led to surgery that means if I did ever have a baby it would need to be born by c section. This news didnt bother me as I don't think it will be an issue, but it bothered others that it didn't bother me!

I'm not talking about my parents or relatives, but my friends, who are the same age. Most of them were really upset on my behalf, and kept saying things like I know you're only trying to be strong, and you never know in a few years this might be a problem. One even went as far as to tell me that of course I'm upset, as every woman wants the chance to give birth as nature intended!!

Projection is a weird one, and a lot of people don't know how to handle it. As in, they imagine how they would feel in your situation and then project that onto you, making the assumption that you must feel the same way - even if you aren't expressing it.

What really annoys me is these type of things:
You don't know true love until you have a child.

I'm going to be "that guy" and agree on this one...to a point. There is a very specific kind of shift in focus that occurs. A depth of love for another living creature that you will very likely never have experienced before.
I doubt it's limited strictly to biological parents and probably does occur for all sorts of parental bonds, even ones formed years after birth, or ones where an adult becomes the carer for another. And the act of being a parent does not necessarily mean this bond will form.
But it's the not the same kind of bond that you have for your parent(s) or siblings, or partners, or friends or pets.
The film "We Need to Talk About Kevin" somewhat explores this depth of unconditional love,

Even after being horrible to her most of his life, butchering her husband and daughter as well as people at his school, the protagonist (mother) of the story realises that she cannot help loving her son, because she's his mother

Primarily, as others have said, I think the main issue here is one of noseyness rather than pressure. People assume that everyone's life will follow a general narrative - meet someone, settle down, get married, have more than one child, raise them, die.

So people naturally ask how you're getting on with this plan. Some people have great difficulty dealing with anyone who might not want to follow this plan - try telling someone that you never plan on buying a house and will rent for the rest of your life. Or that you've no intention of ever getting married.

I also think that many people become defensive when you do things differently. If they find out you don't want to get married, or you don't want a steady 9-5 job or you don't eat meat, they instantly seek to defend their decision to do these things, assuming that you're judging them.

lazygal

seamus wrote: »

I also think that many people become defensive when you do things differently. If they find out you don't want to get married, or you don't want a steady 9-5 job or you don't eat meat, they instantly seek to defend their decision to do these things, assuming that you're judging them.

Bingo. We get this a lot about some of our choices, like not having a church wedding, not having the children baptised (a lot of heat about this from other parents, most of whom tell us they only did it to appease grannies and to get into schools) and extended breastfeeding (I get a lot of questions about why I'm still feeding my two and a half year old) as well as other parenting things.

I also had a friend (not a friend any more) who really went out of her way to question why I wanted to get married and have children, and when I was pregnant made a whole load of passive agressive remarks about how restricted I was and how her life was better without children.

R.D. aka MR.D

seamus wrote: »

I'm going to be "that guy" and agree on this one...to a point. There is a very specific kind of shift in focus that occurs. A depth of love for another living creature that you will very likely never have experienced before.
I doubt it's limited strictly to biological parents and probably does occur for all sorts of parental bonds, even ones formed years after birth, or ones where an adult becomes the carer for another. And the act of being a parent does not necessarily mean this bond will form.
But it's the not the same kind of bond that you have for your parent(s) or siblings, or partners, or friends or pets.
The film "We Need to Talk About Kevin" somewhat explores this depth of unconditional love,

Even after being horrible to her most of his life, butchering her husband and daughter as well as people at his school, the protagonist (mother) of the story realises that she cannot help loving her son, because she's his mother

So the love between a parent and a child is 'true love' and superior to all others?

It's a different kind of love to be sure as is the love for parents, nephews, siblings, and so on. But what makes it superior than these other kinds of love?

Also, plenty of parents don't love their children and plenty of children don't love their parents. That 'shift in focus' doesn't happen for everyone.

Again, it's just people who have very specific ideas about things e.g having children makes you somehow wiser in the world therefore everyone should strive for it. And it's an un-win-able argument because 'you'll never know because you don't have children.' :rolleyes:

intheclouds

seamus wrote: »

I'm going to be "that guy" and agree on this one...to a point. There is a very specific kind of shift in focus that occurs. A depth of love for another living creature that you will very likely never have experienced before.
......
But it's the not the same kind of bond that you have for your parent(s) or siblings, or partners, or friends or pets.

Ugh. Hate this attitude. So patronising. You can't possibly know or understand the depth of another persons love for anyone! It's completely subjective.

Perhaps your love for your child transcends all other love you have experienced but it's not like that for everyone.

My mother chose her love for my father over love for her kids, her bond with him was stronger than any bond with us.

intheclouds

lazygal wrote: »

I also had a friend (not a friend any more) who really went out of her way to question why I wanted to get married and have children, and when I was pregnant made a whole load of passive agressive remarks about how restricted I was and how her life was better without children.

Lol, I had the opposite, why did I want to get married if I didn't want to have children? Like, what's the point?

seamus

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

So the love between a parent and a child is 'true love' and superior to all others?

It's a different kind of love to be sure as is the love for parents, nephews, siblings, and so on. But what makes it superior than these other kinds of love?

Also, plenty of parents don't love their children and plenty of children don't love their parents. That 'shift in focus' doesn't happen for everyone.

I do believe I addressed all of these points in my post by deliberately avoiding being absolutist about it.
I also don't think I ever used the word "superior". In many ways it can be a curse.

To a certain extent you do have to accept that someone having had an experience, by implication is likely to be a little wiser in relation to that experience than you are. People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children. So if they say, "You don't know because you don't have kids", they're right. And your response should be, "I'm happy not knowing, thanks".

Of course that doesn't make them any more worldly-wise or knowledgeable in general, nor does it give them authority to tell another person what's best. Which, again, is something a lot of people struggle with.

intheclouds

seamus wrote: »

People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children.

So what? They still only know how it is for them, not for everyone else.

It makes no sense to extrapolate from one subjective experience.

R.D. aka MR.D

seamus wrote: »

I also don't think I ever used the word "superior". In many ways it can be a curse.

The post that you quoted and said you agreed with said 'you don't know true love...' That implies that other kinds of love are inferior.

RacoonQueen

seamus wrote: »

People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children.

Yeah but if I have a child just to find out, there no blooming going back. I'd have to keep the brat. :pac:

RacoonQueen

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Yeah but if I have a child just to find out, there no blooming going back. I'd have to keep the brat. :pac:

Terrible returns policy

Addle

bluewolf wrote: »

Terrible returns policy

And no guarantee.

Dial Hard

seamus wrote:

To a certain extent you do have to accept that someone having had an experience, by implication is likely to be a little wiser in relation to that experience than you are. People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children. So if they say, "You don't know because you don't have kids", they're right. And your response should be, "I'm happy not knowing, thanks".

No, that's *their* subjective experience of it. It doesn't mean that it applies across the board.

Can you genuinely not see how incredibly patronising it is to tell child-free couples that they don't know what true love is?

Dial Hard

Dial Hard wrote: »

No, that's *their* subjective experience of it. It doesn't mean that it applies across the board.

Can you genuinely not see how incredibly patronising it is to tell child-free couples that they don't know what true love is?

Of course the child free know what true love is, it is a different sort of love even in the most selfless adult to adult relationship there is a large element of reciprocity be it intimacy, sex, companionship, where as with the love of a baby/child it all about what you give with out an expectation of any return.

Thats the way I see it.

R.D. aka MR.D

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course the child free know what true love is, it is a different sort of love even in the most selfless adult to adult relationship there is a large element of reciprocity be it intimacy, sex, companionship, where as with the love of a baby/child it all about what you give with out an expectation of any return.

Thats the way I see it.

Yes, it's how you see it.

Not every person who has a child loves it unconditionally. Or even loves it all.

I know people find that hard to believe and in one way that's really great that you live in a world untouched by an experience of a parent who doesn't love their child.

Also, how would you know if you loved your child unconditionally unless they did something to test it? If you have to have an experience to know what it's truly like then you would have to experience your child doing something heinous to know that you truly loved it unconditionally.

eviltwin

seamus wrote: »

I do believe I addressed all of these points in my post by deliberately avoiding being absolutist about it.
I also don't think I ever used the word "superior". In many ways it can be a curse.

To a certain extent you do have to accept that someone having had an experience, by implication is likely to be a little wiser in relation to that experience than you are. People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children. So if they say, "You don't know because you don't have kids", they're right. And your response should be, "I'm happy not knowing, thanks".

Of course that doesn't make them any more worldly-wise or knowledgeable in general, nor does it give them authority to tell another person what's best. Which, again, is something a lot of people struggle with.

That's saying all parents agree with you. That's not true. My life is no richer or better for having kids. I wouldn't be without my children now but that's because I know them. When a child is a living breathing person rather than an abstract notion it is for the childfree you'll have a different point of view.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Yes, it's how you see it.

Not every person who has a child loves it unconditionally. Or even loves it all.

I know people find that hard to believe and in one way that's really great that you live in a world untouched by an experience of a parent who doesn't love their child.

This isn't at all directed at seamus or anyone in this thread, but I have noticed that a lot of the people who bang on the whole. bloody. time. about how much they love their kids and how mind-blowing and totally different and amazing that love is from anything else in the whole world...tend to be the shíttiest parents and the ones who see their kids as an extension of themselves rather than their own little people.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Anyways, I'd say not wanting kids is still a bit of a taboo, or at least something that goes against the social norm and can come with a bit of stigma. A couple of my friends have been a bit nonplussed when I've said I've no intention of having them, but they don't push the issue. Pressure from my parents and extended family can be a bit difficult to deal with though.

There is also a more subtle assumption about women and children though, that even if you don't have them, you're interested in and competent with them. I personally quite like kids, but I fcuking hate babies. Don't hand me babies, either I'll drop it or the little monster will do some bodily function on me.

I mean some babies are good craic in small doses but blurgh, no.

One eyed Jack

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Yes, it's how you see it.

Not every person who has a child loves it unconditionally. Or even loves it all.

I know people find that hard to believe and in one way that's really great that you live in a world untouched by an experience of a parent who doesn't love their child.

Also, how would you know if you loved your child unconditionally unless they did something to test it? If you have to have an experience to know what it's truly like then you would have to experience your child doing something heinous to know that you truly loved it unconditionally.

Yikes!

I don't think mariaalice was referring to whether a parent could or couldn't love their children unconditionally. I think she was referring to the assertion that people who don't have children couldn't know what true love is, and saying that of course they know what true love is!


Does it count as heinous if my child comes out with "Mam, are you a YouTuber?"... :rolleyes:


There's days I wouldn't mind being child free alright, he's a professional wind-up merchant! :pac:

R.D. aka MR.D

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

There is also a more subtle assumption about women and children though, that even if you don't have them, you're interested in and competent with them. I personally quite like kids, but I fcuking hate babies. Don't hand me babies, either I'll drop it or the little monster will do some bodily function on me.

Haha! I'd be the same. My SIL had a baby recently and I said to my Oh 'ugh, babies are so weird looking!' and he just shook his head. That's the way I've always been.

I'm fantastic with kids from 3+. As I mentioned, I teach them. They love me, I love them! But babies, absolutely not.

My SIL texted me recently about my nephew and she said 'Well, Nephew is finally a little person now(finished toilet training). You can take him places and all you have to do is give him food'. I never told her that I don't like babies but she just knew that that would be good news for me. Just not a baby person.

R.D. aka MR.D

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yikes!

I don't think mariaalice was referring to whether a parent could or couldn't love their children unconditionally. I think she was referring to the assertion that people who don't have children couldn't know what true love is, and saying that of course they know what true love is!


Does it count as heinous if my child comes out with "Mam, are you a YouTuber?"... :rolleyes:


There's days I wouldn't mind being child free alright, he's a professional wind-up merchant! :pac:

I see what you're saying. Apologies mariaalice.

I just think that some parents make out that love between a child and a parent is always some incomprehensible, selfless thing and it's not always that way.


I've also just got my back up because this thread started out as people saying how uncomfortable it makes them when people look down on their choice and then obviously some one comes along and pulls out the classic 'you can't possibly comprehend because you don't have kids'.


Also: that's amazing. Kids say the greatest things and have a way of looking at the world (because they're still trying to figure it all out) that can just make you go from 'meh' to 'that's the greatest thing I've ever heard' in a split second!

One eyed Jack

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

This isn't at all directed at seamus or anyone in this thread, but I have noticed that a lot of the people who bang on the whole. bloody. time. about how much they love their kids and how mind-blowing and totally different and amazing that love is from anything else in the whole world...tend to be the shíttiest parents and the ones who see their kids as an extension of themselves rather than their own little people.

I don't know if I'd say they tend to be the shìttiest parents, but they certainly tend to be up there with the most annoying sort of people to have to be around alright. Particularly sanctimonious about parenthood, but they're no different to those people who are sanctimonious about being child free really.

(and yes, there have been a few examples of child free sanctimonious judgement in this thread, which I wouldn't take personally, but it's just as annoying)

intheclouds

"You'd understand if you had kids" is just insulting in most contexts. Now don't get me wrong, I'm well aware I haven't experienced childbirth for example, but I still know what pain is.

I haven't experienced a lot of things, but I can still hold an opinion on them.

There's a lot of different specific types of love I will never experience, I don't have a sister, both grandmothers were dead when I was born, I haven't got any close cousins. But I still know what love is. Of course I do. To infer that I can't understand some kind of transcendental love simply because I'm child free is just silly.

The bit I don't understand is what drives people to have kids in the first place.

One eyed Jack

intheclouds wrote: »

The bit I don't understand is what drives people to have kids in the first place.

I don't mean to be awkward, but that's exactly the same way your friends don't understand why you don't want children. To some people it's a natural desire to have children, in the same way as you have a natural desire not to have children. It doesn't need explaining really IMO from either perspective as it's just a personal decision.

The reason I said to the OP that there might be more going on with her friends and their ehh... "sentiments", is because I've often noticed that among my friends who are women, they can be very competitive among themselves about "having it all" - career, children, maintaining their figure, etc. They're measuring themselves off each other, and sometimes they're doing it unconsciously, and sometimes, they're fairly blatantly making the point that they're "winning at life", and their friends... aren't.

Children, or choosing not to have children, can often seem like it's another "measurement metric" of how some women are "winning at life". That appears to me anyway why some women will get very defensive about their lifestyle choices, because they appear to feel like they have to justify themselves somehow for whatever choices they make for themselves.

intheclouds

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't mean to be awkward, but that's exactly the same way your friends don't understand why you don't want children. To some people it's a natural desire to have children, in the same way as you have a natural desire not to have children. It doesn't need explaining really IMO from either perspective as it's just a personal decision.

Nothing like shutting down discussion with "it doesn't need explaining". Of course it doesn't NEED explaining in private life, but this is a discussion forum. I'm interested to know. I can say why I don't want to have children so surely someone who does want to have them can say why? It's not about defending either way of thinking, but surely if we are having a discussion about the taboo of not wanting children it's a natural part of it to speculate or wonder why some people DO want to.

eviltwin

intheclouds wrote: »

Nothing like shutting down discussion with "it doesn't need explaining". Of course it doesn't NEED explaining in private life, but this is a discussion forum. I'm interested to know. I can say why I don't want to have children so surely someone who does want to have them can say why? It's not about defending either way of thinking, but surely if we are having a discussion about the taboo of not wanting children it's a natural part of it to speculate or wonder why some people DO want to.

How can you explain it? It's like trying to explain why you are attracted to certain types of people. You just are.

intheclouds

eviltwin wrote: »

How can you explain it? It's like trying to explain why you are attracted to certain types of people. You just are.

I can certainly explain why I don't want children. I don't have any maternal instinct, I don't get any gooey feelings when I see a baby (but I do understand the feeling because I get it for kittens etc), I don't really like smaller children or babies - I just find them kinda irritating.

I value my personal freedom, having experienced the responsibility of being a carer before I would not relish having responsibility for a person again.

The majority of parents I know seem very tired and stressed, it is the minority who seem to really love it.

Financially I'd rather not have the extra strain on the finances. I like expensive holidays in largely child free locations.

I like silence. I like to sit in a silent room listening to the rain, birds singing, or just nothing. I wouldn't like listening to crying and play noise.

(I could easily explain why I'm attracted to certain types of people too!)

eviltwin

intheclouds wrote: »

I can certainly explain why I don't want children. I don't have any maternal instinct, I don't get any gooey feelings when I see a baby (but I do understand the feeling because I get it for kittens etc), I don't really like smaller children or babies - I just find them kinda irritating.

I value my personal freedom, having experienced the responsibility of being a carer before I would not relish having responsibility for a person again.

The majority of parents I know seem very tired and stressed, it is the minority who seem to really love it.

Financially I'd rather not have the extra strain on the finances. I like expensive holidays in largely child free locations.

I like silence. I like to sit in a silent room listening to the rain, birds singing, or just nothing. I wouldn't like listening to crying and play noise.

(I could easily explain why I'm attracted to certain types of people too!)

All of those are valid reasons. I always wanted kids, I don't know why. I live a full and busy life, I work, I'm in college, I do volunteering, have great friends, love to go for walks, watch tv, read but nothing gives me the same fulfilment I get from being at home with my kids and my husband. I just love having these people in my life. One of my kids is an adult now and a really cool person and myself and my husband get a huge buzz out of knowing we did that. I can't wait to see the kind of person my son becomes. Both of mine are out of the baby phase, life is hectic, I'm a hot mess a lot of the time but I wouldn't change it for the world.

Addle

intheclouds wrote: »

For example, I (obviously) wouldn't have any interest in going to a children's party.

I differ here. I don't want a child, but I like babies and children and have a genuine interest in friends and siblings children.
I'd be hurt if friends didn't involve me in occasions they invite other friends to just because I don't have children.

One eyed Jack

intheclouds wrote: »

Nothing like shutting down discussion with "it doesn't need explaining". Of course it doesn't NEED explaining in private life, but this is a discussion forum. I'm interested to know. I can say why I don't want to have children so surely someone who does want to have them can say why? It's not about defending either way of thinking, but surely if we are having a discussion about the taboo of not wanting children it's a natural part of it to speculate or wonder why some people DO want to.

You picked that up wrong anyway. It wasn't any attempt to shut down the discussion, it was to point out that in just the same way as there can be an infinite number of reasons why some women don't want children, there can be an infinite number of reasons why some women do, and realistically speaking - one person's reasons are their reasons that suit their lifestyle, and they're unlikely to help you understand any better why they would want children, in the same way as they don't understand any better when you explain why you don't want children.

I had known from a very early age that I wanted children, call it instinct if you like. I wouldn't put it down to any "evolutionary" or "biological urges" or any of that stuff, because I didn't even know about procreation and reproduction at that age. I thought I could just have them (the story about being found in a cabbage patch, less said the better :pac:).

When I met my wife, I told her I was planning on having six children, she gave me a flat out no way was that happening! So we were together about seven years before we had our first child, when my wife was 28, and I was 27, and then we both wanted another child but it just didn't happen for various reasons. Now that my wife is 40 and I'm 39, another child isn't likely, and it's something we both have to live with. It doesn't mean we love the child we have any less (and yeah, some days he really is a pain in the ass, but as other posters have pointed out, he's a person in his own right, and I wouldn't want a "mini-me" anyway), but it just means that we have to accept that we're not having any more children, much and all as both of us might want to.

It's easier for me to accept because I've spent most of my adult life working with children, and there are all the neighbours children and my own child's friends and stuff, but for my wife it really hasn't been easy at all when she sees her friends having two, three and four children. She went to a class reunion there last year and came home and told me all they were talking about was their children and babies and I didn't say it to her as I didn't want to be cruel but I'd be fairly sure they talked about more than children and babies, but because that's all she could think about, that's all she picked up on!

I think it's the same for women who choose not to have children - they're naturally going to be more sensitive about their decision not to have children because they're surrounded by people who have children, so this can tend to be a bit of a prickly issue for them, and to avoid it they'll point out all the reasons why they choose not to have children and all the positives of not having children and what they perceive to be the negatives for other people who have children.

I personally don't feel there were any negatives for me in having children, I've never felt I was compromising anything, but that I was gaining everything. I understand at the same time though that other people will make choices for themselves, and they're not going to affect me one way or the other, so I don't have any interest in questioning their choices that they make for themselves.

intheclouds

eviltwin wrote: »

I always wanted kids, I don't know why.

This is the bit I'd love to know the answer to (not expecting you to have an answer btw!).

The rest of it (which sounds great, cool that you love it so much), is all about loving the experiences which come afterwards. But you don't know any of that before you decide to have them.

It's an interesting one alright. I know it's easy to reduce it to "different people want different things", but I suppose I wonder what it is that didn't switch on in me to ever want children. Obviously I don't know, because I don't have it.

angeldelight

I really don't see it as insulting - it's like anything imo you can have an opinion about something but until you actually experience it you don't truly know what it's like or how you will react/feel. Eg someone who has had a bereavement of a parent will have more of an understanding of what that does to them as a person than someone who hasn't but who knows they would be devastated. There are layers of intricacy and nuance that I don't believe you could know unless you had experienced it

TG1

intheclouds wrote: »

It's an interesting one alright. I know it's easy to reduce it to "different people want different things"

This is fine, and seems to be the general consensus but why do people feel like it's ok to comment on it?

If I was out for dinner with my friends and I ordered something different there would be no issue, it would be expected, because we all like and want different things. But when it comes to having children, which is a much bigger, and more emotional and private decision, they can have an opinion, and as someone higher up the thread said even go as far as to tell me I don't know my own mind.

They'd never say that about a food choice! It just seems mad to me. Obviously it goes both ways as the experience of some posters shows, and both ways it's an incredibly personal thing for others to try and force their opinions on someone!

eviltwin

intheclouds wrote: »

This is the bit I'd love to know the answer to (not expecting you to have an answer btw!).

The rest of it (which sounds great, cool that you love it so much), is all about loving the experiences which come afterwards. But you don't know any of that before you decide to have them.

It's an interesting one alright. I know it's easy to reduce it to "different people want different things", but I suppose I wonder what it is that didn't switch on in me to ever want children. Obviously I don't know, because I don't have it.

As One Eye said, it was a biological urge. I didn't have any interest in other children, I never played with dolls, never cooed over kids but just knew I wouldn't feel satisfied if I didn't have a child. I had my first just after I left school so not ideal circumstances but it was the best thing I ever did. I don't know if maybe part of it is rooted in having an unhappy childhood and wanting to recreate something positive for myself.

Again as One Eye said I don't feel I lost anything. I might have to plan my fun a bit more but I still have fun. I like kids, I see them as little people rather than annoying brats, I love talking to them and seeing how they think. I can't really explain it any better than that.