Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

R.D. aka MR.D

mariaalice wrote: »

Of course the child free know what true love is, it is a different sort of love even in the most selfless adult to adult relationship there is a large element of reciprocity be it intimacy, sex, companionship, where as with the love of a baby/child it all about what you give with out an expectation of any return.

Thats the way I see it.

Yes, it's how you see it.

Not every person who has a child loves it unconditionally. Or even loves it all.

I know people find that hard to believe and in one way that's really great that you live in a world untouched by an experience of a parent who doesn't love their child.

Also, how would you know if you loved your child unconditionally unless they did something to test it? If you have to have an experience to know what it's truly like then you would have to experience your child doing something heinous to know that you truly loved it unconditionally.

eviltwin

seamus wrote: »

I do believe I addressed all of these points in my post by deliberately avoiding being absolutist about it.
I also don't think I ever used the word "superior". In many ways it can be a curse.

To a certain extent you do have to accept that someone having had an experience, by implication is likely to be a little wiser in relation to that experience than you are. People with children know what it's like to both have and not have children. So if they say, "You don't know because you don't have kids", they're right. And your response should be, "I'm happy not knowing, thanks".

Of course that doesn't make them any more worldly-wise or knowledgeable in general, nor does it give them authority to tell another person what's best. Which, again, is something a lot of people struggle with.

That's saying all parents agree with you. That's not true. My life is no richer or better for having kids. I wouldn't be without my children now but that's because I know them. When a child is a living breathing person rather than an abstract notion it is for the childfree you'll have a different point of view.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Yes, it's how you see it.

Not every person who has a child loves it unconditionally. Or even loves it all.

I know people find that hard to believe and in one way that's really great that you live in a world untouched by an experience of a parent who doesn't love their child.

This isn't at all directed at seamus or anyone in this thread, but I have noticed that a lot of the people who bang on the whole. bloody. time. about how much they love their kids and how mind-blowing and totally different and amazing that love is from anything else in the whole world...tend to be the shíttiest parents and the ones who see their kids as an extension of themselves rather than their own little people.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Anyways, I'd say not wanting kids is still a bit of a taboo, or at least something that goes against the social norm and can come with a bit of stigma. A couple of my friends have been a bit nonplussed when I've said I've no intention of having them, but they don't push the issue. Pressure from my parents and extended family can be a bit difficult to deal with though.

There is also a more subtle assumption about women and children though, that even if you don't have them, you're interested in and competent with them. I personally quite like kids, but I fcuking hate babies. Don't hand me babies, either I'll drop it or the little monster will do some bodily function on me.

I mean some babies are good craic in small doses but blurgh, no.

One eyed Jack

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Yes, it's how you see it.

Not every person who has a child loves it unconditionally. Or even loves it all.

I know people find that hard to believe and in one way that's really great that you live in a world untouched by an experience of a parent who doesn't love their child.

Also, how would you know if you loved your child unconditionally unless they did something to test it? If you have to have an experience to know what it's truly like then you would have to experience your child doing something heinous to know that you truly loved it unconditionally.

Yikes!

I don't think mariaalice was referring to whether a parent could or couldn't love their children unconditionally. I think she was referring to the assertion that people who don't have children couldn't know what true love is, and saying that of course they know what true love is!


Does it count as heinous if my child comes out with "Mam, are you a YouTuber?"... :rolleyes:


There's days I wouldn't mind being child free alright, he's a professional wind-up merchant! :pac:

R.D. aka MR.D

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

There is also a more subtle assumption about women and children though, that even if you don't have them, you're interested in and competent with them. I personally quite like kids, but I fcuking hate babies. Don't hand me babies, either I'll drop it or the little monster will do some bodily function on me.

Haha! I'd be the same. My SIL had a baby recently and I said to my Oh 'ugh, babies are so weird looking!' and he just shook his head. That's the way I've always been.

I'm fantastic with kids from 3+. As I mentioned, I teach them. They love me, I love them! But babies, absolutely not.

My SIL texted me recently about my nephew and she said 'Well, Nephew is finally a little person now(finished toilet training). You can take him places and all you have to do is give him food'. I never told her that I don't like babies but she just knew that that would be good news for me. Just not a baby person.

R.D. aka MR.D

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yikes!

I don't think mariaalice was referring to whether a parent could or couldn't love their children unconditionally. I think she was referring to the assertion that people who don't have children couldn't know what true love is, and saying that of course they know what true love is!


Does it count as heinous if my child comes out with "Mam, are you a YouTuber?"... :rolleyes:


There's days I wouldn't mind being child free alright, he's a professional wind-up merchant! :pac:

I see what you're saying. Apologies mariaalice.

I just think that some parents make out that love between a child and a parent is always some incomprehensible, selfless thing and it's not always that way.


I've also just got my back up because this thread started out as people saying how uncomfortable it makes them when people look down on their choice and then obviously some one comes along and pulls out the classic 'you can't possibly comprehend because you don't have kids'.


Also: that's amazing. Kids say the greatest things and have a way of looking at the world (because they're still trying to figure it all out) that can just make you go from 'meh' to 'that's the greatest thing I've ever heard' in a split second!

One eyed Jack

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

This isn't at all directed at seamus or anyone in this thread, but I have noticed that a lot of the people who bang on the whole. bloody. time. about how much they love their kids and how mind-blowing and totally different and amazing that love is from anything else in the whole world...tend to be the shíttiest parents and the ones who see their kids as an extension of themselves rather than their own little people.

I don't know if I'd say they tend to be the shìttiest parents, but they certainly tend to be up there with the most annoying sort of people to have to be around alright. Particularly sanctimonious about parenthood, but they're no different to those people who are sanctimonious about being child free really.

(and yes, there have been a few examples of child free sanctimonious judgement in this thread, which I wouldn't take personally, but it's just as annoying)

intheclouds

"You'd understand if you had kids" is just insulting in most contexts. Now don't get me wrong, I'm well aware I haven't experienced childbirth for example, but I still know what pain is.

I haven't experienced a lot of things, but I can still hold an opinion on them.

There's a lot of different specific types of love I will never experience, I don't have a sister, both grandmothers were dead when I was born, I haven't got any close cousins. But I still know what love is. Of course I do. To infer that I can't understand some kind of transcendental love simply because I'm child free is just silly.

The bit I don't understand is what drives people to have kids in the first place.

One eyed Jack

intheclouds wrote: »

The bit I don't understand is what drives people to have kids in the first place.

I don't mean to be awkward, but that's exactly the same way your friends don't understand why you don't want children. To some people it's a natural desire to have children, in the same way as you have a natural desire not to have children. It doesn't need explaining really IMO from either perspective as it's just a personal decision.

The reason I said to the OP that there might be more going on with her friends and their ehh... "sentiments", is because I've often noticed that among my friends who are women, they can be very competitive among themselves about "having it all" - career, children, maintaining their figure, etc. They're measuring themselves off each other, and sometimes they're doing it unconsciously, and sometimes, they're fairly blatantly making the point that they're "winning at life", and their friends... aren't.

Children, or choosing not to have children, can often seem like it's another "measurement metric" of how some women are "winning at life". That appears to me anyway why some women will get very defensive about their lifestyle choices, because they appear to feel like they have to justify themselves somehow for whatever choices they make for themselves.

intheclouds

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I don't mean to be awkward, but that's exactly the same way your friends don't understand why you don't want children. To some people it's a natural desire to have children, in the same way as you have a natural desire not to have children. It doesn't need explaining really IMO from either perspective as it's just a personal decision.

Nothing like shutting down discussion with "it doesn't need explaining". Of course it doesn't NEED explaining in private life, but this is a discussion forum. I'm interested to know. I can say why I don't want to have children so surely someone who does want to have them can say why? It's not about defending either way of thinking, but surely if we are having a discussion about the taboo of not wanting children it's a natural part of it to speculate or wonder why some people DO want to.

eviltwin

intheclouds wrote: »

Nothing like shutting down discussion with "it doesn't need explaining". Of course it doesn't NEED explaining in private life, but this is a discussion forum. I'm interested to know. I can say why I don't want to have children so surely someone who does want to have them can say why? It's not about defending either way of thinking, but surely if we are having a discussion about the taboo of not wanting children it's a natural part of it to speculate or wonder why some people DO want to.

How can you explain it? It's like trying to explain why you are attracted to certain types of people. You just are.

intheclouds

eviltwin wrote: »

How can you explain it? It's like trying to explain why you are attracted to certain types of people. You just are.

I can certainly explain why I don't want children. I don't have any maternal instinct, I don't get any gooey feelings when I see a baby (but I do understand the feeling because I get it for kittens etc), I don't really like smaller children or babies - I just find them kinda irritating.

I value my personal freedom, having experienced the responsibility of being a carer before I would not relish having responsibility for a person again.

The majority of parents I know seem very tired and stressed, it is the minority who seem to really love it.

Financially I'd rather not have the extra strain on the finances. I like expensive holidays in largely child free locations.

I like silence. I like to sit in a silent room listening to the rain, birds singing, or just nothing. I wouldn't like listening to crying and play noise.

(I could easily explain why I'm attracted to certain types of people too!)

eviltwin

intheclouds wrote: »

I can certainly explain why I don't want children. I don't have any maternal instinct, I don't get any gooey feelings when I see a baby (but I do understand the feeling because I get it for kittens etc), I don't really like smaller children or babies - I just find them kinda irritating.

I value my personal freedom, having experienced the responsibility of being a carer before I would not relish having responsibility for a person again.

The majority of parents I know seem very tired and stressed, it is the minority who seem to really love it.

Financially I'd rather not have the extra strain on the finances. I like expensive holidays in largely child free locations.

I like silence. I like to sit in a silent room listening to the rain, birds singing, or just nothing. I wouldn't like listening to crying and play noise.

(I could easily explain why I'm attracted to certain types of people too!)

All of those are valid reasons. I always wanted kids, I don't know why. I live a full and busy life, I work, I'm in college, I do volunteering, have great friends, love to go for walks, watch tv, read but nothing gives me the same fulfilment I get from being at home with my kids and my husband. I just love having these people in my life. One of my kids is an adult now and a really cool person and myself and my husband get a huge buzz out of knowing we did that. I can't wait to see the kind of person my son becomes. Both of mine are out of the baby phase, life is hectic, I'm a hot mess a lot of the time but I wouldn't change it for the world.

Addle

intheclouds wrote: »

For example, I (obviously) wouldn't have any interest in going to a children's party.

I differ here. I don't want a child, but I like babies and children and have a genuine interest in friends and siblings children.
I'd be hurt if friends didn't involve me in occasions they invite other friends to just because I don't have children.

One eyed Jack

intheclouds wrote: »

Nothing like shutting down discussion with "it doesn't need explaining". Of course it doesn't NEED explaining in private life, but this is a discussion forum. I'm interested to know. I can say why I don't want to have children so surely someone who does want to have them can say why? It's not about defending either way of thinking, but surely if we are having a discussion about the taboo of not wanting children it's a natural part of it to speculate or wonder why some people DO want to.

You picked that up wrong anyway. It wasn't any attempt to shut down the discussion, it was to point out that in just the same way as there can be an infinite number of reasons why some women don't want children, there can be an infinite number of reasons why some women do, and realistically speaking - one person's reasons are their reasons that suit their lifestyle, and they're unlikely to help you understand any better why they would want children, in the same way as they don't understand any better when you explain why you don't want children.

I had known from a very early age that I wanted children, call it instinct if you like. I wouldn't put it down to any "evolutionary" or "biological urges" or any of that stuff, because I didn't even know about procreation and reproduction at that age. I thought I could just have them (the story about being found in a cabbage patch, less said the better :pac:).

When I met my wife, I told her I was planning on having six children, she gave me a flat out no way was that happening! So we were together about seven years before we had our first child, when my wife was 28, and I was 27, and then we both wanted another child but it just didn't happen for various reasons. Now that my wife is 40 and I'm 39, another child isn't likely, and it's something we both have to live with. It doesn't mean we love the child we have any less (and yeah, some days he really is a pain in the ass, but as other posters have pointed out, he's a person in his own right, and I wouldn't want a "mini-me" anyway), but it just means that we have to accept that we're not having any more children, much and all as both of us might want to.

It's easier for me to accept because I've spent most of my adult life working with children, and there are all the neighbours children and my own child's friends and stuff, but for my wife it really hasn't been easy at all when she sees her friends having two, three and four children. She went to a class reunion there last year and came home and told me all they were talking about was their children and babies and I didn't say it to her as I didn't want to be cruel but I'd be fairly sure they talked about more than children and babies, but because that's all she could think about, that's all she picked up on!

I think it's the same for women who choose not to have children - they're naturally going to be more sensitive about their decision not to have children because they're surrounded by people who have children, so this can tend to be a bit of a prickly issue for them, and to avoid it they'll point out all the reasons why they choose not to have children and all the positives of not having children and what they perceive to be the negatives for other people who have children.

I personally don't feel there were any negatives for me in having children, I've never felt I was compromising anything, but that I was gaining everything. I understand at the same time though that other people will make choices for themselves, and they're not going to affect me one way or the other, so I don't have any interest in questioning their choices that they make for themselves.

intheclouds

eviltwin wrote: »

I always wanted kids, I don't know why.

This is the bit I'd love to know the answer to (not expecting you to have an answer btw!).

The rest of it (which sounds great, cool that you love it so much), is all about loving the experiences which come afterwards. But you don't know any of that before you decide to have them.

It's an interesting one alright. I know it's easy to reduce it to "different people want different things", but I suppose I wonder what it is that didn't switch on in me to ever want children. Obviously I don't know, because I don't have it.

angeldelight

I really don't see it as insulting - it's like anything imo you can have an opinion about something but until you actually experience it you don't truly know what it's like or how you will react/feel. Eg someone who has had a bereavement of a parent will have more of an understanding of what that does to them as a person than someone who hasn't but who knows they would be devastated. There are layers of intricacy and nuance that I don't believe you could know unless you had experienced it

TG1

intheclouds wrote: »

It's an interesting one alright. I know it's easy to reduce it to "different people want different things"

This is fine, and seems to be the general consensus but why do people feel like it's ok to comment on it?

If I was out for dinner with my friends and I ordered something different there would be no issue, it would be expected, because we all like and want different things. But when it comes to having children, which is a much bigger, and more emotional and private decision, they can have an opinion, and as someone higher up the thread said even go as far as to tell me I don't know my own mind.

They'd never say that about a food choice! It just seems mad to me. Obviously it goes both ways as the experience of some posters shows, and both ways it's an incredibly personal thing for others to try and force their opinions on someone!

eviltwin

intheclouds wrote: »

This is the bit I'd love to know the answer to (not expecting you to have an answer btw!).

The rest of it (which sounds great, cool that you love it so much), is all about loving the experiences which come afterwards. But you don't know any of that before you decide to have them.

It's an interesting one alright. I know it's easy to reduce it to "different people want different things", but I suppose I wonder what it is that didn't switch on in me to ever want children. Obviously I don't know, because I don't have it.

As One Eye said, it was a biological urge. I didn't have any interest in other children, I never played with dolls, never cooed over kids but just knew I wouldn't feel satisfied if I didn't have a child. I had my first just after I left school so not ideal circumstances but it was the best thing I ever did. I don't know if maybe part of it is rooted in having an unhappy childhood and wanting to recreate something positive for myself.

Again as One Eye said I don't feel I lost anything. I might have to plan my fun a bit more but I still have fun. I like kids, I see them as little people rather than annoying brats, I love talking to them and seeing how they think. I can't really explain it any better than that.

mzungu

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

This isn't at all directed at seamus or anyone in this thread, but I have noticed that a lot of the people who bang on the whole. bloody. time. about how much they love their kids and how mind-blowing and totally different and amazing that love is from anything else in the whole world...tend to be the shíttiest parents and the ones who see their kids as an extension of themselves rather than their own little people.

While I do not agree with the "shíttiest" parents part, I have indeed found that some of those who stick up endless FB updates, pictures etc of their kids are over compensating. A few I know can't wait to head back to work and hire a nanny because they would "not be able to stand full time parenting". Nothing wrong with hiring a nanny, but if they don't want the hassle of looking after their own kids on a full time basis it makes me wonder why they bothered having any in the first place! It seems in their mind, that sticking up pictures and updates of everything they do on social media in pursuit of thanks and plaudits is what good parenting is all about...and the hard stuff (that strangely never features in social media posts) can be outsourced.

intheclouds

Is it seen as taboo for a man not to want children?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

mzungu wrote: »

While I do not agree with the "shíttiest" parents part, I have indeed found that some of those who stick up endless FB updates, pictures etc of their kids are over compensating. A few I know can't wait to head back to work and hire a nanny because they would "not be able to stand full time parenting". Nothing wrong with hiring a nanny, but if they don't want the hassle of looking after their own kids on a full time basis it makes me wonder why they bothered having any in the first place! It seems in their mind, that sticking up pictures and updates of everything they do on social media in pursuit of thanks and plaudits is what good parenting is all about...and the hard stuff (that strangely never features in social media posts) can be outsourced.

The people I have in mind (who are probably way more of a reflection of the crowds I've hung around with over the years than anything else) would have been younger parents, and the children unplanned. They just weren't suited to having kids, or weren't mature enough for it. They were mad about the kid up to the point where the poor thing was the least inconvenience to them partying exactly the same amount as they did before they were parents. Mad about the kid when it was being quiet and cute, no patience with misbehaviour. The younger parents I know who are great at it tend to just shut up and get on with things, but with these people there seemed to be a real element of overcompensation.

My dad got choked once, because one of his friends turned up at his house at the tail end of a several day bender, and started getting all sorry for himself because he 'never gets to see' his son even though he'd 'do anything for him' and my dad called him out on it :eek:

Edit: I guess my point is, it seems like it's more of a taboo to admit 'I shouldn't have had this kid' than it is to be a bad parent

I am often in awe of parents. I see mammies with their little people and just think wow. They have created a human being and now they must care for and ensure that little human grows up to be the best they can be.

I don't have any children and at almost 34 and single I am beginning to realise that it may not happen for me. So I adopt a kind of who knows attitude. At the minute I still get the "when are you giving us a day out" comments or "advise" telling me how to meet the right man.
I have yet to experience any questions or prying regarding not having children.

People get terribly concerned when you travel through life on the road less taken. If those so called "milestones" aren't being reached then you are clearly flawed and just haven't grown up yet.

One thing I am certain of is that if I become a mam my child will be absolutely and completely loved by me. I don't doubt that for a minute. Money may not be in abundance but all of the right things will be

One eyed Jack

intheclouds wrote: »

Is it seen as taboo for a man not to want children?

It can be, depending upon who you ask, no different than women in that respect - plenty of men who don't want children are questioned about everything from their virility (Cheers mum - "Are your little swimmers ok?" :pac:), to their sexuality (must be gay sure if he doesn't want children!), all manner of derogatory comments and remarks that make a man feel less of a man, in the same way as women are made to feel like less of a woman if they express no desire to procreate.

The OP mentioned earlier that her friends don't comment on her dinner when they go out, but that's likely because to them it's not important, but I know when I go out with some of my friends, if I don't order a vegetarian dish, they'll wear the ears off me about it for the evening!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You mentioned earlier that your friends don't comment on your dinner when you go out, but that's likely because to them it's not important, but I know when I go out with some of my friends, if I don't order a vegetarian dish, they'll wear the ears off me about it for the evening!

Bit of a tangent but I sometimes get the same thing for being veggie. If someone asks me why I'm not ordering the steak when it's the best thing on the menu and I reply it's because I'm a vegetarian I get a big ol' preach about how they hate preachy vegetarians. I'm not preaching, I'm just ordering the veggie dish! Guess it's the same thing sort of, make the unconventional choice and people take it as an implied criticism of their choice

mzungu

Lyla Alive Water wrote: »

The people I have in mind (who are probably way more of a reflection of the crowds I've hung around with over the years than anything else) would have been younger parents, and the children unplanned. They just weren't suited to having kids, or weren't mature enough for it. They were mad about the kid up to the point where the poor thing was the least inconvenience to them partying exactly the same amount as they did before they were parents. Mad about the kid when it was being quiet and cute, no patience with misbehaviour. The younger parents I know who are great at it tend to just shut up and get on with things, but with these people there seemed to be a real element of overcompensation.

It is unfortunately quite commonplace. Doting parents....up until party time arrives on Friday and Saturday (and Sundays on Bank Hols) and then its passing them off to Granny and Grandad until the session ends.

Edit: I guess my point is, it seems like it's more of a taboo to admit 'I shouldn't have had this kid' than it is to be a bad parent

Nail on the head. There are many out there who should not be left in charge of an animal let alone say a child.

Lau2976

I have never gad any interest in facing children and because of a medical issues it's almost certain that I won't, I don't feel ant judgement from friends over this, I have had other people say that I'll change my mind when I'm older and concern from my doctor when I was told about my infertility and my first question was if it would affect my period, but other then that nobody has ever really said anything about it.

I don't feel like I'm missing anything that I have any interest in experiencing and don't feel like people with kids are missing anything that they are that interested in. I live through my fur babies and I'm perfectly happy with that as is my partner. He loves kids, spends hours every week with his nieces and nephews and is always spoiling them, but he also loves everything about not having kids and enjoys being the cool uncle just fine.

lazygal

mzungu wrote: »

While I do not agree with the "shíttiest" parents part, I have indeed found that some of those who stick up endless FB updates, pictures etc of their kids are over compensating. A few I know can't wait to head back to work and hire a nanny because they would "not be able to stand full time parenting". Nothing wrong with hiring a nanny, but if they don't want the hassle of looking after their own kids on a full time basis it makes me wonder why they bothered having any in the first place! It seems in their mind, that sticking up pictures and updates of everything they do on social media in pursuit of thanks and plaudits is what good parenting is all about...and the hard stuff (that strangely never features in social media posts) can be outsourced.

I know I couldn't stay at home full time. I had about a year of maternity leave each time and I was ready to return to work, first full time and now three days a week. I grew up with two parents who worked outside the home and I'm a better parent knowing that I can head out to work and keep myself in the workplace. I'd probably be a poor full time parent. I'm lucky that I can combine work and parenting but it's not a case of not bothering about them because I go to work. Judging people who aren't parenting full time isn't appropriate either.

meeeeh

mzungu wrote: »

While I do not agree with the "shíttiest" parents part, I have indeed found that some of those who stick up endless FB updates, pictures etc of their kids are over compensating. A few I know can't wait to head back to work and hire a nanny because they would "not be able to stand full time parenting". Nothing wrong with hiring a nanny, but if they don't want the hassle of looking after their own kids on a full time basis it makes me wonder why they bothered having any in the first place! It seems in their mind, that sticking up pictures and updates of everything they do on social media in pursuit of thanks and plaudits is what good parenting is all about...and the hard stuff (that strangely never features in social media posts) can be outsourced.

Ok I agree in general about fb although I would also include pictures of pets, food and some other annoying stuff. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with going back to work. I love my kids (and you could hardly find a picture of them online and if there is one it was not posted by me) but I also need adult company and different stimulation. I am not the type of the person that would enjoy caring, minding or teaching profession, you can also include anything to do with charity sector and I am not going to apologize for it. There is a reason why women wanted to have an opportunity to work, earn their own money and be more than just a mother.

As for the opening post, I think the whole natural birth idea is moronic. If we were relying on nature half of us would die in and around child birth/pregnancy (ok slight exaggeration but not too much). I get similar attitude about not being married and similarly can understand why people want to do it but because other people's weddings can be fun I am not complaining. Anyway I think those comments are way more annoying if you want something but can't have it otherwise it's more like a water off a duck's back.