Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

One eyed Jack

I didn't read mzungu's comments as being directed at parents who choose to work at all tbh, I think they said as much and all, that they weren't aiming at parents who work, but the type of person who craves validation on social media for their parenting and all the rest of it, living their lives vicariously through their children and posting all the positive aspects of being a parent (though in saying that, I do know some awful moany hole martyrs too!).

The career thing is just another metric by which some women measure themselves against others - some women think they're better than other women because they "stay at home mums", some women think they're better than other women because they're "working mums". Both groups will get defensive about their lifestyle choices and attempt to justify themselves when they feel they're being judged.

Stheno

I have never wanted children and imo one of the key reasons is that I am the oldest of ten children with a twenty year gap between me and my youngest sibling, I actually left home before they were born.

I spent my teen years, rearing children, and hated it.

My OH has two kids, aged 22 and 25, and I just don't get his devotion to them at times, one of them rang recently at something like 4:30 in the morning looking for a lift home as they'd no money for a taxi and he got out of bed, drove into Dublin city centre and dropped them home.

I asked him earlier about the whole "the love you feel for your children is different from any other love" question, and he said for him it wasn't true, but that you always view your children differently, I facetiously compared it to farts, and he said it was true!

Personally for me, I couldn't bear the idea of being tied to kids, very selfish I know, but it's not like having a pet, where you can go out and not worry, you're tied to them 24/7

I resent having to give up time to deal with my OHs kids regularly if I had to do it all the time I'd crack up tbh

And on the comments thing, I have had some truly nasty comments by colleauges in the past, to the extent that in one case I pretended to a colleague that my then partner and I had fertility issues as he couldn't understand how we were married seven years and had no kids outside of that remit.

mzungu

lazygal wrote: »

I know I couldn't stay at home full time. I had about a year of maternity leave each time and I was ready to return to work, first full time and now three days a week. I grew up with two parents who worked outside the home and I'm a better parent knowing that I can head out to work and keep myself in the workplace. I'd probably be a poor full time parent. I'm lucky that I can combine work and parenting but it's not a case of not bothering about them because I go to work. Judging people who aren't parenting full time isn't appropriate either.

meeeeh wrote: »

Ok I agree in general about fb although I would also include pictures of pets, food and some other annoying stuff. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with going back to work. I love my kids (and you could hardly find a picture of them online and if there is one it was not posted by me) but I also need adult company and different stimulation. I am not the type of the person that would enjoy caring, minding or teaching profession, you can also include anything to do with charity sector and I am not going to apologize for it. There is a reason why women wanted to have an opportunity to work, earn their own money and be more than just a mother.

I wasn't judging folks who don't stay at home full time. Apologies, after reading back on my post I can see I did not clarify what I meant. I was talking specifically about people who I knew who could not stand parenting (some of whom by their own admission don't like spending time with their kids period) who incessantly post updates, pictures on social media 24/7 making out like they are inseparable and living in an Andrex commercial. The post was aimed at them and not meant to be a generalisation of all parents who go back to work.

Dial Hard

Stheno wrote:

I asked him earlier about the whole "the love you feel for your children is different from any other love" question, and he said for him it wasn't true, but that you always view your children differently, I facetiously compared it to farts, and he said it was true!

One of my dad's (a very devoted father of five) favourite sayings is "Kids are like farts; you can just about stand your own".

Stheno wrote:

And on the comments thing, I have had some truly nasty comments by colleauges in the past, to the extent that in one case I pretended to a colleague that my then partner and I had fertility issues as he couldn't understand how we were married seven years and had no kids outside of that remit.

Bingo. Someone upthread commented about how it's unlikely she'll ever have kids due to medical issues but has never experienced negative comments about it. That's because people react COMPLETELY differently to people who can't have children. The assumption is that they would have had them if they could. Perfectly healthy women who make an informed decison not to have children, howevrr, are still very much an unknown quantity and my experience of being one has been a lifetime of having to defend that choice in the face of bemusement, incredulity and often downright hostility.

Dial Hard

Stheno wrote:

Personally for me, I couldn't bear the idea of being tied to kids, very selfish I know

See, this is something I've never, ever understood - in what way is it selfish not to want children? What are we depriving anyone of by not having them? I just don't get it. Never have. It's not like there's vast swathes of unborn children, sentient and waiting for us up there in the ether somewhere that we're consigning to some eternal cosmic orphanage by not having them.

(Can't edit my post above as I'm on mobile and the posts I quoted will disappear if I do).

R.D. aka MR.D

Dial Hard wrote: »

See, this is something I've never, ever understood - in what way is it selfish not to want children? What are we depriving anyone of by not having them? I just don't get it. Never have. It's not like there's vast swathes of unborn children, sentient and waiting for us up there in the ether somewhere that we're consigning to some eternal cosmic orphanage by not having them.

(Can't edit my post above as I'm on mobile and the posts I quoted will disappear if I do).

It's bad for the environment to have children. So if you think about it..... :P

TG1

Dial Hard wrote: »

See, this is something I've never, ever understood - in what way is it selfish not to want children? What are we depriving anyone of by not having them? I just don't get it. Never have. It's not like there's vast swathes of unborn children, sentient and waiting for us up there in the ether somewhere that we're consigning to some eternal cosmic orphanage by not having them.

For myself, the feeling that its a slightly selfish decision comes from the reasons behind making it. I don't want kids because I like having time to devote to just myself. I like having money and nice things. I like the fact that I can go home and be totally by myself for an evening if I want.

They're all fairly self involved reasons for not having children and while I know I'm not depriving the world of anything it just sounds a bit selfish when you are made to justify it out loud. But again, maybe that is just a consequence of the fact that society seems to be conditioned towards the idea that having kids is the norrmal thing.

IvyTheTerrible

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Haha! I'd be the same. My SIL had a baby recently and I said to my Oh 'ugh, babies are so weird looking!' and he just shook his head. That's the way I've always been.

I'm fantastic with kids from 3+. As I mentioned, I teach them. They love me, I love them! But babies, absolutely not.

My SIL texted me recently about my nephew and she said 'Well, Nephew is finally a little person now(finished toilet training). You can take him places and all you have to do is give him food'. I never told her that I don't like babies but she just knew that that would be good news for me. Just not a baby person.

I think even my own son looked like a little red-faced wrinkly old man when he was born!
I like him because he's my son but I don't expect people to ooh and aah over him.

Dial Hard wrote: »

One of my dad's (a very devoted father of five) favourite sayings is "Kids are like farts; you can just about stand your own".
.

Some researchers actually did some research on the smell of dirty nappies. They took a bunch of mothers and babies. They collected a dirty nappy from each of them, mixed them up and asked the mums to say which one they preferred the smell of. The vast vast majority picked (unknowingly) their own baby's nappy. It's postulated that it's something to do with the protection instinct.

One eyed Jack

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

Some researchers actually did some research on the smell of dirty nappies. They took a bunch of mothers and babies. They collect a dirty nappy from each of them, mixed them up and asked the mums to say which one they preferred the smell of. The vast vast majority picked (unknowingly) their own baby's nappy. It's postulated that it's something to do with the protection instinct.

I can relate to this somewhat - I never minded at all changing my own child's nappies, the smell didn't bother me. But other people's children, I'm often wondering what the hell are they feeding the child?? :pac:

With regard to the whole idea that choosing not to have children is selfish, well of course it is IMO, so is choosing to have children, because it's a decision we make for ourselves! There's nothing wrong with that though, it would be wrong if we chose to have children we didn't want just to keep someone else happy. At least in that respect, choosing not to have children is the right decision, and it doesn't need all the explanations like how a person likes the lifestyle they're accustomed to and all the rest of it.

If I didn't hadn't wanted to have children, the only person I'd feel a need to explain myself to is someone who wanted to have a child with me. I would feel it wasn't anyone else's business.

People who do not want to have children tend to have it as a very deep philosophical conviction that not having children is the right decision for them. It probable arouse very early in their life and they are very sure about their choices.

They might very well like children or even work with children and it is much deeper that superficial issues about liking to keep all their money for themselves

skallywag

I'm not really getting my head around this:

TG1 wrote: »

...Most of them were really upset on my behalf...

i.e. being 'really upset' because you would need a C-section to deliver a child into this world.

Perhaps such a reaction could be better justified if the news was to the effect that one cannot have children at all, but to be 'really upset' because you may be forced to have a C-section seems way OTT to me.

TG1

skallywag wrote: »

I'm not really getting my head around this:



i.e. being 'really upset' because you would need a C-section to deliver a child into this world.

Perhaps such a reaction could be better justified if the news was to the effect that one cannot have children at all, but to be 'really upset' because you may be forced to have a C-section seems way OTT to me.

That was a huge part of my confusion, I was dropping it casually into a conversation around metal plates being left in, and was more concerned about the inconvenience of airports but they were horrified by the c section thing. They were all talking like it was the end of the world. That's what led to the whole discussion around having or not having kids, which then confused me further!

seamus

Phew! Well if nothing else at least I inspired some discussion, even if I do seem to have miscommunicated.

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

The post that you quoted and said you agreed with said 'you don't know true love...' That implies that other kinds of love are inferior.

OK, I see why I would be taken up wrong and that's my fault. Of course "true love" is itself a subjective notion. There's no such thing as true love. It's like someone saying, "You don't know true fear until you've nearly drowned", it is by definition subjective.
My point was simply that it is a feeling different to others, an experience that you would very rarely get outside of the parent-child relationship, so to say that "You can't know unless you've had kids" is generally correct. But that doesn't mean it's any better or worse than another or it's an unmissable life experience.
Some people would consider cave-diving to be an unmissable life experience. Eh, no thanks.

intheclouds wrote: »

Is it seen as taboo for a man not to want children?

In some respects. The stereotype around children is that women want them and men have children inflicted upon them.

And this still persists today, look at this sexist bull****: http://www.sunnyskyz.com/blog/292/10-Things-Men-Do-Differently-Than-Women-5-Is-Priceless-

A woman knows everything about her children. She knows about dentist appointments, romances, best friends, favorite foods, secret fears and hopes and dreams.

A man is vaguely aware of some short people living in the house.

Jokes will still abound about a "lucky escape" for a man after a pregnancy scare whereas women may have people comforting them.

While it would certainly be considered outside of the norm for a man to be dead set against it, it wouldn't be taboo to the same - with many people believing that men have no opinion anyway. That even if he doesn't want children, his wife/partner will make that decision for him. To many idiots a man saying he never wants children, is a like a child saying he doesn't want to go to school.

Dial Hard wrote: »

See, this is something I've never, ever understood - in what way is it selfish not to want children?

The whole topic of children make some people go a bit weird. I think when someone considers a childfree person to be "selfish", what they're actually doing in their head is imagining themselves acting like a childfree person, even though they have kids. In other words, doing whatever they want, when they want. And, wow, you monster, how could you just neglect your children like that? How could you be so selfish?

Much like the abortion debate, thoughts and feelings get projected onto children that don't even exist, instead of coming at it from the other angle.

skallywag

A good friend of our family actually insisted on having her two via C-section OP, your friends are being outrageous if you ask me.

I see nothing at all selfish with not wanting kids. Much more selfish to decide to have kids and not look after them to your best capability.

wuffly

I don't think its particularly taboo, not with my Irish friends anyway. They make me feel old fashioned planning to have kids!

I did get pretty pissed when i told a work colleague that I was pregnant, and he mentioned how relieved he was that I wasn't infertile and what a relief for me that I was finally with child, in fact he and the whole department has discussed it and were quiet worried about me and also my marriage as my husband would be disappointed with me:eek: My fertility and what I do or not do with it none of your frigging business. :mad:

I really miss the way Irish people would at least keep that kind of rubbish to themselves for the most part, although clearly some don't.

Kids can bring out the weirdest crap in people!

RacoonQueen

I have to ask because I've seen a couple of comments on this.

How is it selfish to not have kids? This genuinely confuses me. What is selfish about it?

Dial Hard

RacoonQueen wrote:

How is it selfish to not have kids? This genuinely confuses me. What is selfish about it?

Absolutely nothing, that I can see. I asked the same question earlier and the following answer was given:

One eyed Jack wrote:

With regard to the whole idea that choosing not to have children is selfish, well of course it is IMO, so is choosing to have children, because it's a decision we make for ourselves!

And while I agree that yeah, that's the dictionary definition of selfish, it's not what people mean when they use the word, generally.

Selfish, as an accusation (which it generally is, let's face it), means to make a decision that suits you to the detriment of others. And I really, honestly just cannot see how that applies to choosing not to have children. It really is an odious word to apply to a perfectly valid decision.

Stheno

RacoonQueen wrote: »

I have to ask because I've seen a couple of comments on this.

How is it selfish to not have kids? This genuinely confuses me. What is selfish about it?

If we all decided not to have kids the human race would die out is one argument I've had thrown at me.

One eyed Jack

Dial Hard wrote: »

Absolutely nothing, that I can see. I asked the same question earlier and the following answer was given:



And while I agree that yeah, that's the dictionary definition of selfish, it's not what people mean when they use the word, generally.

Selfish, as an accusation (which it generally is, let's face it), means to make a decision that suits you to the detriment of others. And I really, honestly just cannot see how that applies to choosing not to have children. It really is an odious word to apply to a perfectly valid decision.

Absolutely, which is why IMO it just sounds silly when it's thrown in either direction. It's meaningless, and it's not going to change a person's perspective either way.

It's immature of anyone to think calling someone selfish would have them think "Yeah, maybe I should have a child because I don't want to be seen as selfish".

PressRun

I don't know if I've experienced it as a taboo, but I definitely think that having children is just assumed to be a "natural step" in everyone's life, even though it obviously isn't. I know a lot of my friends see children in their futures and it seems to be taken as a given that they'll all have families (a lot of "When I have kids..." sort of talk). I can't really say I feel the same way. That's not to say that I don't like children or that I would point blank refuse to ever have them (if I met someone who really wanted a family, I'd probably consider it), but it's certainly not something I see as a 'must' in the way that my friends do. For me, a 'must' is further education, pursuing my career, travelling to parts of the world I've never seen before, perhaps even living in another part of the world. Those are the things I feel I would seriously regret if I didn't do them, much more than not having children, so those things are my priorities. If it turns out that I don't have time for children, then so be it.

R.D. aka MR.D

Well, I think some people say it's selfish because you have to carry on your 'line'. Your parents deserve grandchildren. My own OH gets this from his mum, she wants more grandkids!

It's also hard to believe for some people that two grown adults could both agree that they don't want children. So maybe they think you are selfish but preventing your husband/wife from having children.

Again, the argument that the human race will die out. However, the world doesn't need more humans. Overpopulation is a huge problem.

There's also the idea that mothers are 'selfless' that they make so many sacrifices for their children, that women who don't are by default 'selfish'.

In my opinion, the selfish accusation just comes from the idea (as another poster mentioned) that many parents think that living a life filled with spontaneity and frivolous purchases are selfish because 'what about your non-existent children'. It's them looking at it from the perspective of a parent.

stinkle

PressRun wrote: »

I don't know if I've experienced it as a taboo, but I definitely think that having children is just assumed to be a "natural step" in everyone's life, even though it obviously isn't. I know a lot of my friends see children in their futures and it seems to be taken as a given that they'll all have families (a lot of "When I have kids..." sort of talk). I can't really say I feel the same way. That's not to say that I don't like children or that I would point blank refuse to ever have them (if I met someone who really wanted a family, I'd probably consider it), but it's certainly not something I see as a 'must' in the way that my friends do. For me, a 'must' is further education, pursuing my career, travelling to parts of the world I've never seen before, perhaps even living in another part of the world. Those are the things I feel I would seriously regret if I didn't do them, much more than not having children, so those things are my priorities. If it turns out that I don't have time for children, then so be it.

This, totally. I'm not totally against having kids either, but I wouldnt be devastated if it turned out either me or my husband were infertile. I think Id just get on with it rather than go down the IVF route.

The assumption that once you're married you're baby-mad is really annoying. If I was that desperate for a child then having a wedding ring or not wasn't going to be a factor. Most of our 10 year relationship was spent with one or both of us in college/grad school and now we're finally married and earning we are damn well enjoying adventures together and just being the two of us. Some "concerned" individuals have wondered aloud if we (i.e. me!) were doing the right thing by making big career moves recently - suggesting I'm too career-focused. Im not even all that driven or ambitious! Just enjoy my work right now and like to have a roof over my head and food to eat :pac:

Ignatius in bloom

I have a son i love to death but apparently its 'cruel' not to have another one to keep him company. I often wonder do these people realise that they have called you a terrible name? But then i come to my senses and i realise this: Gob****es completely and utterly and merely it's a case of misery loving company.

As i said i love my son dearly and unconditionally a fact that has not happened with any other human being including my parents or siblings but what is also a fact is that sometimes i am envious of people with no kids who can do whatever they want and when they want too and have that freedom that i don't. But alas i would not change it for the world as for me its something i love completely.

Also parenting can turn people into the most boring, predictable and most judgemental people, you see it in creches/schools/activities these glaring oiks who are just looking at anything to look down upon so it makes their life seem better than it is, truly awful people who lets face it with those tendencies the question should be should they have had kids?

Before i had my son i would get the same comments people mention on here and sometimes my answer would be simple, in fact it would be a question. Why do you care? Are you not happy being a parent? Is that why you want everyone else to be? So you don't feel alone? Because what i also understand and see a lot is that sometimes being a parent is the most lonely experience possible and filled with dread and self doubt.

In closing i am too busy being a parent to ever wonder why someone else isn't.

Dolbert

The people who go on and on about their kids/being a parent are the same people who wouldn't shut up about their wedding, and before that their relationship. They have no other interests and never had, so they don't know how to talk about anything else (IMO)

spurious

I know at least two women who have gone out and deliberately got pregnant, because they 'wanted' children. That to me seems incredibly selfish.

intheclouds

spurious wrote: »

I know at least two women who have gone out and deliberately got pregnant, because they 'wanted' children. That to me seems incredibly selfish.

Would it be better or worse if they'd used a sperm bank?

spurious

intheclouds wrote: »

Would it be better or worse if they'd used a sperm bank?

Without going into details, they were not far off. No concern about having a job, a suitable place for a child to live, anything like that. More thought would have gone into getting a dog.

intheclouds

spurious wrote: »

Without going into details, they were not far off. No concern about having a job, a suitable place for a child to live, anything like that. More thought would have gone into getting a dog.

You could say the same for any unplanned pregnancy really, no thought at all gone into it (except maybe "oh **** did we forget to use protection").

There are huge numbers of people who have children with no cares as to how the child is to be supported, as they themselves cannot support themselves, so they can hardly support a child.

Sure isn't it their "entitlement"? :rolleyes:

One eyed Jack

spurious wrote: »

Without going into details, they were not far off. No concern about having a job, a suitable place for a child to live, anything like that. More thought would have gone into getting a dog.

Reminds me of the time when my child was born, and one of my friends came in to the hospital to visit, and she saw my wife with our child and whispered to me wistfully - 'That should have been me'...

I still get the shivers when I think of the awkwardness after she dropped that one

I'm surprised you can only think of two though, I've known plenty of women like that who just want a baby with no thought whatsoever as to how they would be able to provide for one. It's difficult to explain the mentality without making them sound like a few sandwiches short of a picnic, but I understand why they feel that way, knowing them as I do and knowing that their feelings, albeit genuine, are often not considering the long term implications of bringing another human being into the world.

eviltwin

intheclouds wrote: »

You could say the same for any unplanned pregnancy really, no thought at all gone into it (except maybe "oh **** did we forget to use protection").

There are huge numbers of people who have children with no cares as to how the child is to be supported, as they themselves cannot support themselves, so they can hardly support a child.

Sure isn't it their "entitlement"? :rolleyes:

I was one of those people and my family turned out okay. It's not like this country gives people an alternative to having a child. I don't think you should tar all unplanned pregnancies with the same brush. It can happen to anyone.