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Why is not wanting children still a bit of a taboo?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I was one of those people and my family turned out okay. It's not like this country gives people an alternative to having a child. I don't think you should tar all unplanned pregnancies with the same brush. It can happen to anyone.

    Im not tarring anyone with anything. The only point I was making is that there are plenty of pregnancies that no thought has gone into (my second point is unrelated to that). You don't appear to disagree, so you are in fact a case in point.

    I often hear people say that it can happen to anyone, but personally I have taken steps to ensure it hasn't happened to me and I can say with certainty that more than one friend have taken similar steps to ensure it didn't happen. Where there's a will there's a way and all that.

    Had it happened me, despite precautions, I certainly would have availed of the "Irish solution". These days there's also the morning after pill (which was not so easy to procure back in the day).


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,391 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I suppose if I think about it, I could think of more than two that I know. It's just that these are both quite recent. 'Wouldn't it be a bit of a laugh?' at the start of December has become two little beings on the way.

    I suppose as a lesbian, were I to have had children, it would have been very much planned and only if I and my partner/family/friends were in a position to give a child all it needed - materially as well as emotionally. A big piece of that (for me) would have been the father having a large role. I suppose it's a subtle enough difference, but it would have been a child for the child's sake, rather than because I 'wanted one'. Perhaps I'm not explaining myself well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,643 ✭✭✭R.D. aka MR.D


    This is an interesting article about some of the reasons people have kids:https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/tech-support/201512/6-terrible-reasons-have-child

    The first reason is about women who have the child so they have some one to love them. I personally know some women who would fall into that category and it's quite disturbing. Some of those women who go out and get by pregnant by anyone might fall into that category.


    Unplanned vs planned isn't any guarantee of success or failure. Plenty of planned children living in poverty. My own friend is like that, I'd honestly have more respect for her if they were unplanned. Can barely afford to put a roof over her head but has 2 planned kids anyway with her husband. And plenty of unplanned children living in financially secure homes. A former boss of mine had an unplanned child very young but she worked so hard to provide for her and she was honestly the best mannered, sweetest little girl you had ever met.

    Also, I think on the issue of 'it can happen to anyone'. Well, in secondary school, the girls that I knew who were pregnant weren't able to get the money together to go to England or didn't know what/how to do it. When their parents found out, they basically forced them to the child.
    They were children at the end of the day, they didn't have the proper education about contraception.

    I've never had an unplanned pregnancy because I'm obsessive about contraception but not everyone is as privileged as me to be able to afford it. Not everyone is educated enough to know their choices when it comes to contraception.


    Look at the state of Colorado, they have reduced teen pregnancies and abortions by about 40% by giving free IUDs to teenagers. How amazing would that be for the girls of Ireland to have that freedom but I know I didn't even know what an IUD was until I was about 19. Never knew it was an option. Maybe things have improved in schools these days but when I was there, you had to figure a lot out for yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,860 ✭✭✭worded


    Who was it that said they watching his partner having his child was like watching his favourite pub burn down ?

    Each to their own but its great re living your own child hood again through your childeren. I got to play with Lego again.

    Hearing .... I love you dad .... The joys of parenting

    But I respect anyone's choices to be child free


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 66 ✭✭Alienigenis


    Flashbacks of an argument I recently had with mother dearest.
    "Well when you go out and get married, and have kids of your own…"
    "But I won't."
    "Everyone says that."
    "Really though, I won't. I can't stand either of those prospects."

    Sure I'll sit with kids and talk/play with them, but I only enjoy it because when I get tired or bored I can give the child back to the parent and say "hey, that was fun. Enjoy!"
    A lot of people are dead set in the ways of having a family and kids, and because Irish families were known for being insanely huge (I have actually lost count of my aunts, uncles, and cousins), the older generations assume that we must carry it on. I really can't stand it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,969 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    Also, I think on the issue of 'it can happen to anyone'. Well, in secondary school, the girls that I knew who were pregnant weren't able to get the money together to go to England or didn't know what/how to do it. When their parents found out, they basically forced them to the child. They were children at the end of the day, they didn't have the proper education about contraception.

    I don't know anyone who got pregnant in secondary school. I do know a few who it happened to in their 20s and every single one of them was cavalier, shall we say, in their attitude towards contraception. A missed pill or split condom and an attitude of "It'll be grand" instead of "Better get the morning after pill.

    Like you, I'm absolutely obsessive about contraception and have never had a pregnancy scare in 18 years of being sexually active. And if the worst had happened, I'd have been straight on the boat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,198 ✭✭✭PressRun


    I know a couple of girls who got pregnant in secondary school or shortly thereafter. I definitely think it was down to a lack of education on contraception and not knowing what their options were in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. I would imagine most of them had no idea how to go about getting on the pill and may have not even known about the existence of the morning after pill. Travelling for an abortion is just not a viable option for many people either.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I think anyone can make a good parent. Some of the best parents ive seen were young or were couples who had an unplanned child. They just got on with it. It's easy to judge a young couple or the single parents, plenty of people who are married or in stable relationships have a moment of madness. There are options for those who can avail of them but not everyone feels ending a pregnancy is an option. I don't think anyone should over think or judge someone for having a child just as we shouldn't judge anyone for not having one, once the child is loved and well cared for. I had my first just our of school and my second just as both me and my husband lost our jobs, worst timing ever for both but we've sorted it out, both back working, stable relationship of over 20 years, happy home life, kids in a good place. If you'd seen me at 18 you wouldn't have trusted me with a hamster let alone a child. Less judging and more support whatever paths we choose would be better for everyone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,969 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    eviltwin wrote:
    It's easy to judge a young couple or the single parents, plenty of people who are married or in stable relationships have a moment of madness.

    A quick read of the "Childhood Trauma" thread in AH is more proof than anyone ever wanted that some people who appear to be "ideal candidate" parents shouldn't have been let within a hundred metres of a child. Some truly awful reading there.

    As they say, you need a licence for a dog but anyone can have a child.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    My cousin and her husband have six kids, started having them early, they're not the richest people either. Totally chilled out people, crazy about the kids and vice versa, really happy family home. Then I know people who had like one or two kids when they were high earning 30 something's and cannot handle it at all.

    Age and money don't automatically make good parents. It's good to have stability, sure, but temperament is far more important


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  • Posts: 7,344 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    TG1 wrote: »
    I was a bit horrified by how much this small insignificant side effect upset my friends who I previously thought were pretty modern, rational people! Is it just my circle of friends who have not moved past the idea that everyone must have children or has anyone else encountered this attitude?

    I have not encountered it in my own circle of friends and family - but more second hand through them. There is no small amount of them that have decided children are not for them or their lifestyle. And they get all kinds of negative reactions to this. But as you suggest - most people have moved past these attitudes. As with many things - it is just a small vocal minority that get mentioned on threads like this one - that give the impression that the attitudes are still largely prevalent in the world.

    The most common reaction I hear of (though still increasingly rare I hasten to repeat) is the "You do not think you want them now but you will" one. Usually coupled with a phrase along the lines of "I did not want them either - but now I have them I can not understand what I was thinking".

    A less common reaction is the one you describe. The "Nature intends for you to do it" one. Sometimes with the more religious "It is god's plan" type comment which is thankfully less and less common these days.

    The least common reaction - but still one that is out there - is outright anger and aggression. As if you are somehow letting down your friends - family - or even society down by not "being like everyone else". As if you have some duty to the species to reproduce.

    I have even heard of comments of an extremity like "How dare you - there are people out there who would give anything to have a child - and you are simply throwing away your natural ability to do so" - as if having a capability someone else lacks compels you to use it.

    Oh looksie here - I have decided never to play ball sports - oh the horror that is me - given all the people stuck with conditions that preclude them from playing any sport. How dare I not play when all those people want to but can not!

    I suppose a lot of it could come down to people feeling judged - as seamus says in his post which I reply to below.

    Go into some of the alcohol related forums or threads on boards.ie for example. Something you hear reported there is when someone chooses to stop drinking - their drinking friends sometimes view it as a judgement of their drinking. As if the choice not to drink oneself is inherently a disparagement on those that do.

    So I wonder could something similar be at play between people who choose not to have children and people who do? As if the life style choice of the former is being treated as a disparaging commentary on the latter?

    But there is also the fact that we as a species like an easy narrative and when everyone follows that narrative - we know where we stand with them. We can parse their life through our experience of our own and know where they are coming from and generally what they are thinking - feeling - and experiencing.

    So when one steps outside the standard narrative in any noticable way - going alco free - vegetarian - child free - homosexual - the list is huge - you slightly become something "other" and this makes people uncomfortable because they have to work that little bit harder to parse you in their head and you are slightly more alien to them.

    I guess we like to tell ourselves we treat people as individuals - but many of our species want people to be a lot more homogeneous than we let on.
    seamus wrote: »
    I'm going to be "that guy" and agree on this one...to a point. There is a very specific kind of shift in focus that occurs. A depth of love for another living creature that you will very likely never have experienced before.

    Speak for yourself :)

    I have experienced depths of love for all kinds of people. Family. Friends. Partners. Children (mine and others) even pets. And each loving relationship has been different to the next.

    But I would not point to any category within that set as a whole and declare it to be more special - more deep - or more "true" than the others. Quite the opposite. Each category is capable of it's own peaks and troughs and extremes just like any other.

    I remember a thread over on the city data forum (a forum that uses the same software as this one) about whether in an emergency situation - where you could only save the life of your spouse or your child - which one you would jump to. The thread - as I recall - was divided on it 50:50 with some people horrified entirely at the choice of the other side.

    We are a creature that loves labels and neat little boxes. So when we love our children more than anyone else - or our spouse more than anyone else - or whatever - we like to erect a little narrative in our heads that this is just how love works. When the reality is in fact that the extremes of love are as individual as the people involved and one persons "True Love" is another persons lack of even a radar blip of relevance.

    But telling childfree people they do not understand or know "true" love is as bad a comment as the one the OPs post was lamenting. Especially given people throwing that claim around can not quantify the difference in any way. Attempt yourself - for example - to articulate the difference in love for a child that makes it "true love" - that people like - say - me - do not feel for our partners/spouse. I warn you up front - you are going to fail.
    Nothing like shutting down discussion with "it doesn't need explaining". Of course it doesn't NEED explaining in private life, but this is a discussion forum. I'm interested to know. I can say why I don't want to have children so surely someone who does want to have them can say why?

    There is no easy answer for you really. The reasons people want them will likely be as individual as they are. Imagine if you love putting your feet up in the evening and reading a book or watching a soap. You could explain your reasons for not wanting to go out of a winter evening and play football with a team in the wind and the rain. You could ask to understand why people who do it want to do it - but there is no one reason or set of reasons to easily understand. There will be MANY. And each person you talk to might have one - two - or many of those reasons.

    So each of us can only speak for ourselves. On this thread you have seen both extremes. People who do not want children at all - like yourself - and people who speak of always wanting them. I myself fall dead centre on that scale. I never wanted - nor not wanted - children. Rather - I simply did not think of it.

    Then once I was established in a relationship I started wanting to. The reasons were many. I wanted to embark on that special shared project with my partners. A path I could only walk with them and no one else. A second reason was that I wanted to put a little more of the people I love in the world. That is how I see my children. As being individuals - but !also! as being a little bit more of the object of my love in the world.

    And further I wanted to see the world through the eyes of a child in a way only people working in very close relationship with a child can - and I wanted to expand myself in the ways that that demands. Because often being a parent can mean looking at the world in a new way - and living life in a new way - that can be a stimulating and fulfilling intellectual and emotional challenge. Children have a great way of asking questions about the world that leave you not only thinking "Actually - you know I do not know the answer to that" but also "You know what - that is a question I have become so set in the narrative of my life - that I would not have even thought to ask in the first place!".

    But as I say those are my reasons. There will be people reading what I wrote thinking "YES! That is it exactly" and others reading it going "No - no I do not recognise myself in that at all. Nothing he just said describes my motivations for having children _at all_!". My choices were purely intellectual and emotional. Others describe an instinctive need and desire that I have never had myself.
    Is it seen as taboo for a man not to want children?

    It can be but it is expressed less intently I suspect. Possibly due to the idea many people have related to the time period in which one can safely and successfully procreate. The effects of age on the process are seen as being more pressing for women than men - and hence the intensity of peoples reactions towards someone not having - or wanting - children can be proportional to that.

    With my and my partners we decided the girls would not have children until they were in their 30s. I have two kids now with the girl who is in her 30s - but no kids yet with my second girlfriend who is not yet in her 30s.

    And this has been met with some level of (again uncommon but existing) horrified reactions from the "Oh do not wait until 30s - its much safer and better to have children before that!!!" crowd.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    I had my only child 'later in life' and have a number of couples in our group who haven't had kids. I find that they tend to look down their noses at the parents who cant stay out til 5 am / travel to Paris at the drop of a hat / spend 500 on a fancy bag etc etc

    I don't care whether or not they have kids but plenty of comments have been passed by them as to how parents let kids take over their lives. Most parents don't want kids to take over their lives in full but there is a substantial amount of work involved in having kids which isn't taken into account.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 740 ✭✭✭sassyj


    CaraMay wrote: »
    I had my only child 'later in life' and have a number of couples in our group who haven't had kids. I find that they tend to look down their noses at the parents who cant stay out til 5 am / travel to Paris at the drop of a hat / spend 500 on a fancy bag etc etc

    I don't care whether or not they have kids but plenty of comments have been passed by them as to how parents let kids take over their lives. Most parents don't want kids to take over their lives in full but there is a substantial amount of work involved in having kids which isn't taken into account.

    I'm child free and I can't really do any of that either lol! Some people, with or without kids, are just idiots.
    I will be remaining child free, I don't get any weird reactions. I'm not even the only person I know who doesn't want kids, it's not that uncommon now. People in general just love to give opinions, no matter what the subject.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    Oh and the other one is when you aren't 'allowed' talk about kids yet its ok for people without kids to drone on for hours about work / their wedding / moving house etc etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Oh and the other one is when you aren't 'allowed' talk about kids yet its ok for people without kids to drone on for hours about work / their wedding / moving house etc etc

    Or pets :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭TG1


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Oh and the other one is when you aren't 'allowed' talk about kids yet its ok for people without kids to drone on for hours about work / their wedding / moving house etc etc

    Oh, I find the opposite! I have to sit and look at endless photos of the little darlings belonging to my friends (although they are pretty cute!) doing totally mundane things like playing with another child or eating their dinner but when I produce photos of my baby the eyes glaze over....

    Just because she is horse shaped doesn't make it any less amazing when I get a photo of her playing with her friend or eating her coarse mix!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    TG1 wrote: »
    Oh, I find the opposite! I have to sit and look at endless photos of the little darlings belonging to my friends (although they are pretty cute!) doing totally mundane things like playing with another child or eating their dinner but when I produce photos of my baby the eyes glaze over....

    Just because she is horse shaped doesn't make it any less amazing when I get a photo of her playing with her friend or eating her coarse mix!

    :D:D

    Oh there is nothing more boring than baby talk but work and holiday talk / photos is right up there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    CaraMay wrote: »
    Oh and the other one is when you aren't 'allowed' talk about kids yet its ok for people without kids to drone on for hours about work / their wedding / moving house etc etc

    You can talk about your kid as much as I can talk about my cat, deal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    CaraMay wrote: »
    :D:D

    Oh there is nothing more boring than baby talk but work and holiday talk / photos is right up there.

    I don't know. The only person I actually follow on fb is a school mate of mine who treats us to her holiday photos, food photos, family photos, kid photos, bump photos when she was pregnant ... She actually hired a photographer to take photos of her son and husband and her bump. I especially liked the one where sun was shinning from behind her bump. I was looking forward to the birth photos but unfortunately she spared us those. Anyway it wasn't motherhood that made her an idiot because one of the last times I went to class reunion before I moved she showed up there with her wedding album.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    You can talk about your kid as much as I can talk about my cat, deal?

    No offense but there is a reason cats are still eaten in some countries without any moral outrage. They are a bit too low on evolution ladder to be overly interesting.

    That being said cat pictures are great.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    You can talk about your kid as much as I can talk about my cat, deal?

    when I'm out I've as much interest in talking about cats (zero interest) as I do in talking about kids. I just find it irritating when the group is told not to talk about kids because x, y and z don't have kids, yet they waffle on about people in their work you know nothing about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,969 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    CaraMay wrote:
    Oh there is nothing more boring than baby talk but work and holiday talk / photos is right up there.


    Because only child-free people do that, for sure.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,652 ✭✭✭CaraMay


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Because only child-free people do that, for sure.

    My point is that the topic of kids on a night out seems to be much more taboo


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    CaraMay wrote: »
    when I'm out I've as much interest in talking about cats (zero interest) as I do in talking about kids. I just find it irritating when the group is told not to talk about kids because x, y and z don't have kids, yet they waffle on about people in their work you know nothing about.

    I presume they bore the non parents as much as the parents then. Some people are just socially disengaged and it's not because they have kids or haven't or are speaking to people who do or don't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    CaraMay wrote: »
    My point is that the topic of kids on a night out seems to be much more taboo

    I want to hear about people's kids as much as I want to hear about their other relatives.

    How's your ma? Grand? Did she get over that cold? Great.

    How's little Johnny? Good? Did he start school? Good stuff.

    End of.

    If you talked about any relative excessively (unless there was something specific to report), I'd see it the same way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,612 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    CaraMay wrote: »
    My point is that the topic of kids on a night out seems to be much more taboo

    It depends if friends have kids or not. I was at a wedding last weekend and among my group of friends talk was mostly house building, renovations, kids and the only subject the only single friend could participate in was work. And he is very unhappy about that too at the moment. I think "taboos" are set by where in life your friends are.

    Similarly there are two couple s we are close to that can't or have trouble conceiving. I find baby/kids talk around them very uncomfortable. And sometimes they bring it up themselves and than you walk on eggshells making sure you don't say something that could hurt them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,969 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    CaraMay wrote:
    My point is that the topic of kids on a night out seems to be much more taboo


    I suspect there may be confirmation bias on both sides here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    Talking about any subject incessantly is annoying IMO.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 96 ✭✭newcar2016


    I'm not able to look after myself let alone kids! Tomorrow is another day!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,817 ✭✭✭Addle


    Talking about any subject incessantly is annoying IMO.

    Everyone talks about what's going on in their own life.
    I'd find it very strange if friends who had kids didn't talk about them!
    They should be their priority, of course they're going to talk bout them!


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