Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Enda kenny

Options
124

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Each party is as bad as the other and the political culture that still exists from the FF is evident for all to see. The FACT that FG will struggle to get into power and that independents are getting stronger, proves that people don't believe the spin.


  • Options
    #93
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Godge wrote: »
    Drumpot wrote: »

    I think the dogs on the street could forward a reform plan for the PS, but its clear no political party have the will or vision to tackle this beast. Its not excusing FG by saying "well what plan have the others got", it only shows that they are no different in their approach.

    Well if the dogs on the street can do it, maybe you could set out your reform plan for the public service. Will make interesting reading at least.
    Nothing that hasn't been thrown out on these forums countless times. For a start accountability for ones roll would help. Speaking to people who work within and private entitys that have to work with public service bodys its easy to see how horribly incompetent many of the managers and structures within the service waste so much at the cost to the public. I also know that most managers take zero responsibility and have zero discipline applied. An external body reviewing and managing an overhaul would be a start . . Ah but sure how do they do that without strikes ? Nobody said it wasn't going to be easy, but FG have taken zero tough choices in this regard.


  • Options
    #94
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    Drumpot wrote: »
    Its a pretty weak effort to benchmark them against the opposition that constitutes "reformed" gangsters and the politicians that presided over the worst economic crash in the history of the state.



    If you think its a defence to say "well we aren't as bad as the other crowd", it only further highlights the lack of political will to implement real reform of any kind both politically and institutionally.

    You can spin the budgetary figures anyway you like (you do know that is just spin, the figures you quoted?!), but the FACT is that those figures don't count for anything if the world market takes a plunge. We are still heavily in debt and once again you are benchmarking us on a level that doesn't factor in the variables that Ireland cannot control. We can control what we spend, we cannot control the rest of the world markets.

    I think the dogs on the street could forward a reform plan for the PS, but its clear no political party have the will or vision to tackle this beast. Its not excusing FG by saying "well what plan have the others got", it only shows that they are no different in their approach.

    Well hang on there a minute.

    You're the one who benchmarked this government in relation to the last. You stated that this fg lab gov is no better than the last which is frankly not credible under any circumstances.

    This government are proving to be possibly the best in the history of the state.

    The Cowen administration on the other hand...
    Are you taking the piss? Best in the state ? What decisions have they (not the troika) done to deserve that title? They have been caretakers for the majority of their tenure. Its akin to the unremarkable schoolchild who is extremely good at taking instructions from the teacher.



    Peoples major defence of this government seems to be "what have the others got to offer". FF and SF are poor alternatives which is the only reason FG have a remote chance in this election. Why do you think the people of Ireland think so little of Kenny and FG? To suggest its because he presided over austerity is to presume that the electorate are completely fickle. the same electorate that voted them in the first place . .


  • Options
    #95
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    ezra_pound wrote: »
    Well hang on there a minute.

    You're the one who benchmarked this government in relation to the last. You stated that this fg lab gov is no better than the last which is frankly not credible under any circumstances.

    This government are proving to be possibly the best in the history of the state.

    The Cowen administration on the other hand...

    While no one will disagree with Cowens administration being terrible to say this government is the best in the history of the State is a complete fallacy.

    Like it or lump it FF / PDs / Greens have done a he'll of a lot for the infrastructure of this country in addition to things like Good Friday and everything else in between. Not to mention all the other Governments who had to steer through very turbelent times.

    The only things of note from FG/Lab has been to follow the agreement that FF agreed with the Troika, the Irish Water catastrophe,the Marriage Equality legislation and bowing to handlers in Germany not forgetting of course the laughable fairy tales from Enda in between


  • Options
    #96
    Floppybits
    Registered Users Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Floppybits


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    While no one will disagree with Cowens administration being terrible to say this government is the best in the history of the State is a complete fallacy.

    Like it or lump it FF / PDs / Greens have done a he'll of a lot for the infrastructure of this country in addition to things like Good Friday and everything else in between. Not to mention all the other Governments who had to steer through very turbelent times.

    The only things of note from FG/Lab has been to follow the agreement that FF agreed with the Troika, the Irish Water catastrophe,the Marriage Equality legislation and bowing to handlers in Germany not forgetting of course the laughable fairy tales from Enda in between

    Don't forget the treatment FG gave the garda whistlblowers, allowing a Garda white wash and the "sacking" of the Garda Commissioner. I'm not fan of the other parties but FG for the last 5 years in government have done nothing but embroil themselves in scandal after scandal. They have been nothing but an abject failure, all they had to do was not be FF and they would have walked this election but they couldn't even do that.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Nothing that hasn't been thrown out on these forums countless times. For a start accountability for ones roll would help. Speaking to people who work within and private entitys that have to work with public service bodys its easy to see how horribly incompetent many of the managers and structures within the service waste so much at the cost to the public. I also know that most managers take zero responsibility and have zero discipline applied. An external body reviewing and managing an overhaul would be a start . . Ah but sure how do they do that without strikes ? Nobody said it wasn't going to be easy, but FG have taken zero tough choices in this regard.

    There is accountability and reform. Here is the current plan and progress reports under it.

    http://reformplan.per.gov.ie/

    Maybe, given your vast knowledge and experience, you would point out how this plan should be improved/changed/amended?

    It is easy to post a soundbite about public sector reform, it is much harder to explain what you mean and even harder again to deliver it.


  • Options
    #98
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Godge wrote: »
    There is accountability and reform. Here is the current plan and progress reports under it.

    http://reformplan.per.gov.ie/

    Maybe, given your vast knowledge and experience, you would point out how this plan should be improved/changed/amended?

    It is easy to post a soundbite about public sector reform, it is much harder to explain what you mean and even harder again to deliver it.

    Actually, I am just calling it how it is and I believe most people feel the same way. Its hard to believe that this government would find it so difficult to convince people of its competency considering the state the country was in when it took over.

    Nobody is saying it would be easy, but this government had a ridiculously strong mandate and were taking the reigns from such a low level, its impossible to fathom how they could be so unpopular when you factor in the remarkable recovery.

    I don't have all the answers and don't pretend to, but its clear that the systematic reform that was desperately needed has not happened. How do I know? Admittedly anecdotal, but as a businessman who provides advice to public servants and major companies who have to work with large public service departments, there is certainly zero evidence thus far that any "reform" supposedly acted has yielded tangible benefits.

    There is no accountability within the public service, certainly not at the higher end of the scale. There is zero responsibility taken by anybody at these levels.

    That's just scratching the surface and one facet that needs to be radically tackled.

    If it was easy to reform it would be done, but this is my point. This government consistently takes the easy, politically popular choices unless it forced not to. When you have politicians who are teachers and people who have zero real life business experience, its not surprising that they hide behind reports and PR tools to try and convince people that they are making progress.

    I know for a fact that a business proposal was put to the previous minister for health. It would of saved the taxpayer over 40million a year, freed up over 100 beds in hospitals and provided the proper rehabilitation for the patients in long term hospital care. It didn't happen because of red tape. The minister was aware and the hospitals didn't want to lose any control. Since I cannot prove this happened , you can easily dismiss it, but I have personally seen little from this government that suggests they have any particularly qualities that provide proof they engage in progressive political strategies that aren't focused on simply furthering their own interest.

    While our electorate is as fickle as every other, I don't think its completely stupid. Most people saw the recent budget as a con and very few professionals thought it was progressive or helpful. There are few examples of this government making anything other then populist decisions, other then when the Troika forced austerity. Considering the country is doing so well after such a torrid time, why do you think the government is struggling popularity wise?


  • Options
    #99
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Drumpot wrote: »
    I know for a fact that a business proposal was put to the previous minister for health. It would of saved the taxpayer over 40million a year, freed up over 100 beds in hospitals and provided the proper rehabilitation for the patients in long term hospital care. It didn't happen because of red tape. The minister was aware and the hospitals didn't want to lose any control. Since I cannot prove this happened , you can easily dismiss it, but I have personally seen little from this government that suggests they have any particularly qualities that provide proof they engage in progressive political strategies that aren't focused on simply furthering their own interest.

    There are a lot of ideas like that put to ministers every year, but once they involve any possibility of profit for the private company suggesting it, they become subject to procurement and state aid rules. What happens next is that the company backs away as they know that in an open competition, their sweetheart deal would be undercut and they blame red tape for stopping their project.

    We saw this with the Siemens proposal for free water meters which would have committed the State to a very expensive maintenance contract for thirty years. All of these kinds of proposal come with hidden costs.


  • Options
    #100
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Godge wrote: »
    There are a lot of ideas like that put to ministers every year, but once they involve any possibility of profit for the private company suggesting it, they become subject to procurement and state aid rules. What happens next is that the company backs away as they know that in an open competition, their sweetheart deal would be undercut and they blame red tape for stopping their project.

    We saw this with the Siemens proposal for free water meters which would have committed the State to a very expensive maintenance contract for thirty years. All of these kinds of proposal come with hidden costs.

    I can accept that this may very well be the case, but would you accept that there is a chance (without either of us knowing the specifics of this example) that it was plain old beauracracy?

    You see, I am not in any party camp, I do believe that the culture in politics is putrid and anybody within the game is more then likely corrupted by this cesspool. It would be very hard not to fall into line with the shallow practises of garnering votes. Few people see any difference between this government and the last and no amount of government websites highlighting the things they have done will change that.

    There seems to be a great delusion, certainly among supporters of parties/candidates, that its all just part of the game. Few stick out as individuals or revolutionists in the sense of changing things. Stephen Donnelly is the closest I have seen, but in opposition its always easier to throw mud and be honest, so I would have to concede that even he has question marks over his motives.

    People wanted clear reform that they could clearly identify and that doesn't appear to be the case. People also hoped that FG/Lab would use their mandate to change the political culture and I don't get the impression that anybody feels that's the case, this recent budget being the perfect example. Even the hardcore FG/Lab supporters have to admit that , behind all the PR, this budget looks like a bribe to the electorate.

    Given how bad things were when this government took over and how well things are going now, its odd that this government is not a shoe in for the next election. I ask you again why do you think that Kenny and the government are so unpopular, given how much some people feel they have done for the country ?


  • Options
    #101
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    To be honest, 90% of people judge political parties based on how well they do on economics. They judge Fianna Fail that way, Sinn Fein, even Labour that way as well as Fine Gael.

    Fine Gael have managed to stabilise the national finances, and turn around the economy.

    I think everything else apart from that is pretty irrelevant.

    Does Kenny have a habit of putting his foot in it? yes of course. Does that make him a bad Taoiseach. No it doesn't.

    Bertie Ahern and Brian Cowen were loved by the Irish media for years and years. Cowan was called a political heavyweight, Bertie was treated like a messiah. Bertie saved the peace process or so we were told time and time again.
    The pair of them were hopeless on the economy though, which is what really matters at the end of the day.

    Its actions not words that counts.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Fine GaelTroika/FF plan have managed to stabilise the national finances, and turn around the economy.

    Fixed your post for you


  • Options
    #103
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Fixed your post for you

    When it delivers continent leading economic & job creation growth, its a wonder why every country doesn't do it..... cos its obviously the right thing to do!

    And its success makes it very very stark how wrong the far-left parties are for opposing it.
    It sure makes their last 5 years of bleating ring empty


  • Options
    #104
    Shurimgreat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Fixed your post for you

    Well we all know FF got us into the mess and if I remember correctly Cowen was on holidays for most of the summer of 2008 celebrating his "victory" in becoming leader, while the country went down the tubes. The celebrations went on well into 2009 as well. And then they discovered they needed rescuing by the IMF. So in summary, they created the problem, invited in the IMF, skipped town and left the next government and ordinary people to try to clean up their mess.

    I think FG have done ok in government. There's still an awful lot to do though, not least tackling the national debt mountain.

    But like I said, FG/FF/labour/Sinn Finn/PBPA/etc will all be judged on how credible they are on the economy.


  • Options
    #105
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Actually, I am just calling it how it is and I believe most people feel the same way. Its hard to believe that this government would find it so difficult to convince people of its competency considering the state the country was in when it took over.

    Nobody is saying it would be easy, but this government had a ridiculously strong mandate and were taking the reigns from such a low level, its impossible to fathom how they could be so unpopular when you factor in the remarkable recovery.

    I don't have all the answers and don't pretend to, but its clear that the systematic reform that was desperately needed has not happened. How do I know? Admittedly anecdotal, but as a businessman who provides advice to public servants and major companies who have to work with large public service departments, there is certainly zero evidence thus far that any "reform" supposedly acted has yielded tangible benefits.

    There is no accountability within the public service, certainly not at the higher end of the scale. There is zero responsibility taken by anybody at these levels.

    That's just scratching the surface and one facet that needs to be radically tackled.

    If it was easy to reform it would be done, but this is my point. This government consistently takes the easy, politically popular choices unless it forced not to. When you have politicians who are teachers and people who have zero real life business experience, its not surprising that they hide behind reports and PR tools to try and convince people that they are making progress.

    I know for a fact that a business proposal was put to the previous minister for health. It would of saved the taxpayer over 40million a year, freed up over 100 beds in hospitals and provided the proper rehabilitation for the patients in long term hospital care. It didn't happen because of red tape. The minister was aware and the hospitals didn't want to lose any control. Since I cannot prove this happened , you can easily dismiss it, but I have personally seen little from this government that suggests they have any particularly qualities that provide proof they engage in progressive political strategies that aren't focused on simply furthering their own interest.

    While our electorate is as fickle as every other, I don't think its completely stupid. Most people saw the recent budget as a con and very few professionals thought it was progressive or helpful. There are few examples of this government making anything other then populist decisions, other then when the Troika forced austerity. Considering the country is doing so well after such a torrid time, why do you think the government is struggling popularity wise?

    Great post.


  • Options
    #106
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    Shurimgreat wrote:
    And then they discovered they needed rescuing by the IMF. So in summary, they created the problem, invited in the IMF, skipped town and left the next government and ordinary people to try to clean up their mess.

    Simple question with a simple yes or no answer. Are FG/Lab following the plan that was agreed by FF and the Troika??


  • Options
    #107
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 18,924 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    FalconGirl wrote: »
    Social............. the day after one of the biggest hospitals in the countries has to stop admitting patients due to overcrowding? Have you taken a walk around the streets of Dublin lately and seen the massive amounts of homeless sleeping in doorways at night? Not too sure about that. This Govt have been a mix of good and absolutely atrocious.

    Unfortunately, you're speaking to people that don't care about these things.


  • Options
    #108
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Simple question with a simple yes or no answer. Are FG/Lab following the plan that was agreed by FF and the Troika??

    No. The programme ended two years ago. Even when it was in place, it would be difficult to argue that the government was just blindly following the programme without making any decisions of its own. The memorandum was a series of targets and commitments. How and if they were met was up to the government of the day.


  • Options
    #109
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    No. The programme ended two years ago. Even when it was in place, it would be difficult to argue that the government was just blindly following the programme without making any decisions of its own. The memorandum was a series of targets and commitments. How and if they were met was up to the government of the day.

    Well we know the savagery of the cuts they made. Do you not accept that it this agreement that ended half way through the current government that laid proper foundations for the recovery?


  • Options
    #110
    keane2097
    Registered Users Posts: 17,770 ✭✭✭✭keane2097


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Well we know the savagery of the cuts they made. Do you not accept that it this agreement that ended half way through the current government that laid proper foundations for the recovery?

    The agreement who made?


  • Options
    #111
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    keane2097 wrote: »
    The agreement who made?

    FF and Troika in 2010


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    JustTheOne wrote: »
    Health service is a mess alright. Always has been.

    But its also not fair to always focus on the A and E situation.

    A huge amount of great work takes place in our hospitals and a lot of areas have been improved.

    It's not fair to constantly put it down. People in these hospitals deserve more credit.

    The system is crappy, but it's always been. So we can dismiss that, sure what can the leader of government do? Sure wasn't he appalled today. Next!
    I don't think anybody is pointing the finger at hospital staff, certainly not the one who brought this to the minister and informed Enda there was an issue, as it seemed to be news to him. Finger on the pulse there. We all know the system needs fixing, seems Enda just found out.


  • Options
    #113
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,008 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Oops69 wrote: »
    This is tongue in cheek I presume , and by ' running ' you mean ruining of course.
    Kenny is an utterly spineless national emabarrasment , the electorate will put him out of his misery soon enough .

    Well Kenny is not much of a leader, but he was what the country needed to turn it around, someone who would plod along and not get to smart about it! Ireland is a net exporting country, has been for a long time and so long as you continue to sell more than buy you'll eventually work your way out of the crisis, so long as someone does not screw it up and he did not. Had we had some one of the Left instead we might well be Greece or even worse right now.


  • Options
    #114
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    Well we know the savagery of the cuts they made. Do you not accept that it this agreement that ended half way through the current government that laid proper foundations for the recovery?

    Ok so do you accept it wasn't the current governments plan when they imposed savage cuts on the nation as people say?

    Sure they were only following orders from the troika so its not their fault.

    So in a way they didn't cause the crash and they didn't impose the harsh cuts.

    Not a bad job so.


  • Options
    #115
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,528 ✭✭✭golfball37


    No problem with the cuts and fine job on the macroeconomic numbers. I would find it immoral to vote for this government however because of the cronyism.


  • Options
    #116
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    JustTheOne wrote: »
    Ok so do you accept it wasn't the current governments plan when they imposed savage cuts on the nation as people.

    the targetting of the more vulnerable in society such as respite care grant was up to FF/Lab not the troika agreement


  • Options
    #117
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    Good discussion by the panel on VB tonight on Enda's ongoing failure to answer questions in the Dáil. Everyone except Michelle Mulherrin (Mayo TD) agree he just waffles and does not answer the question. It is undemocratic.


  • Options
    #118
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    Good discussion by the panel on VB tonight on Enda's ongoing failure to answer questions in the Dáil. Everyone except Michelle Mulherrin (Mayo TD) agree he just waffles and does not answer the question. It is undemocratic.

    In fairness to Enda his range is a bit better than that, he does like the old "i know you are but what am i" type response as well


  • Options
    #119
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    Good discussion by the panel on VB tonight on Enda's ongoing failure to answer questions in the Dáil. Everyone except Michelle Mulherrin (Mayo TD) agree he just waffles and does not answer the question. It is undemocratic.


    "In 1994, Vincent Browne sought a nomination for the Fine Gael party in that year's European elections or the possible general election of that year (it was thought a general election might follow the collapse of the Albert Reynolds' government). He was rebuffed by the leader of Fine Gael and future Taoiseach, John Bruton. He then became a vocal critic of the part"

    Vincent is still bitter after not getting the votes to run for fianna Gael.

    Bitter bitter man.


  • Options
    #120
    Baggy Trousers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    JustTheOne wrote: »

    Vincent is still bitter after not getting the votes to run for fianna Gael.

    Bitter bitter man.

    That was 21 years ago!

    I actually think VB treats all parties and leaders fairly (mostly with disdain).

    I have not detected the bitterness in him. I think we would be lost without him. He calls it right almost every time. Smart guy.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Baggy Trousers wrote: »
    That was 21 years ago!

    I actually think VB treats all parties and leaders fairly (mostly with disdain).

    I have not detected the bitterness in him. I think we would be lost without him. He calls it right almost every time. Smart guy.

    Your bitterness detector mustn't be functioning. Apart from the reasons he hates FG, he also has it in for FF as he lost money spectacularly when the economy crashed.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/vincent-browne-puts-beloved-house-for-sale-as-village-proves-too-costly-for-him-26680132.html

    He would be sitting with his feet up in the South of France if it wasn't for the crash.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magill

    "Browne later appointed a series of editors with him becoming managing editor. Its early editors included Fintan O'Toole, John Waters and Colm Tóibín. (Tóibín went on to achieve renown as a novelist.) However clashes of personalities with Browne led each editor in turn to quit the post as did one of its major writers Gene Kerrigan"

    There is hardly a journalist left in Ireland who hasn't had a run-in with Vincent Browne.


Advertisement