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Enda kenny

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    #62
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,683 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    johnny osbourne wrote: »
    enda is a great leader

    Please read the charter before posting again. Soundbytes and one-liners aren't really what this forum is for.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #63
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    So you've cited some definitions but no stats. Figured. Nice fudge.

    How ever it's measured, it's rising.


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    #64
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #65
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'm not missing the point. I'm disagreeing. On finding child poverty and homelessness is on the rise, consistently I don't question the measuring system as my first go to. As I stated how ever it's measured, it's been measured so for some time, and it's on the rise.
    On the rise means increasing. All your Socio-Economic terminology can't fudge that.

    We know figures can be massaged, but on the rise, consistently over many years, is an issue of great concern and cannot be side stepped by critiquing the measuring process.
    You keep using taking part in sports or activities as a key measurement. How does that play into homeless figures?

    And I suppose the UN's system is flawed too? Are you going to pull, how hungry is really hungry?

    Ireland could face censure over child poverty
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1027/737734-child-poverty-united-nations/


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    #66
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #67
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I'm quite sure they are being massaged. I'd be surprised if they weren't to some degree. My point; the figures are on the rise, consistently, over many years.
    Will you be on here with the same blather when they are low?
    The measuring system was not adjusted for this recent report.
    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    The measurement process was not created this month. People differ, organisations have different metrics they measure.

    The representative body for 100 charities state child poverty is on the rise, in fact the UN understand it has more than doubled during the recession. There's no 'merely'. Can't see Kenny gathering the stats for them myself.

    Figures are on the rise. You cite the measuring process all you like and any flaws you perceive. Use a piece of string and a Yoyo to measure it if suits you.
    It's on the rise, doubled in under ten years. The definition does not take away that it has doubled.


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    #68
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #69
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #70
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    That's because you dont understand or are chosing to side track at this point.

    Regardless of how it's measured and taking into account all the figures issued to the public from all governments and organisation's are massaged one way or another, (this is common place, we know this). However these figures are arrived at, it is the same way they have been arrived at and measured for many many years.
    These are the figures we use.
    These are the figures that have doubled in under ten years.
    Your response to this is to critique the measuring method, in an effort to dismiss the reports.
    That's fine but does not take away the fact that the same metrics ten years ago, compared to the same metrics today, show child poverty has doubled.
    That's simple math. If you disagree with the measurement process, fine but it's still double and the UN are concerned regardless, yet the economy is doing great? Go figure.


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    #71
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    johnny osbourne wrote: »
    enda is a great leader terrible liar

    fixed your post for you :)


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    #72
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,683 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »
    fixed your post for you :)

    This is not a news dump. Please try to be more constructive with your posting.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #73
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #74
    nagel
    Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭nagel


    back to the main topic , as usual boards gets sidelined, according to the journal.ie http://www.thejournal.ie/enda-kenny-army-atms-2413295-Oct2015/ Enda is now backtracking, the comment about anecdotes, page 3, could be correct as an anecdote can cover both lies and the truth as per the oxford dictionary, http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/anecdote , do you believe definition 1 or 1.1, from yesterdays' morning Ireland Richard Bruton seems to be in the 1.1 class likewise Michael Noonan, it will be interesting to see if the professor says anything,


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    #75
    JacquesSon
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 758 ✭✭✭JacquesSon


    I've hated FG due to a family history for as long as I've been able to vote but I can't imagine voting for anyone else in the next election.

    Pragmatism trumps all.


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    #76
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    JacquesSon wrote: »
    I've hated FG due to a family history for as long as I've been able to vote but I can't imagine voting for anyone else in the next election.

    Pragmatism trumps all.

    He's a liar and his party more concerned with the books looking good then the peoples well being as long as they tax up.

    The fact that history comes into it at all is bizarre, unless it's recent.
    Bring back Eamon Dev Valera the fraudster?


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    #77
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    For Reals wrote: »
    Bring back Eamon Dev Valera the fraudster?

    You can check with the FF press office, but I think Dev is unlikely to run.


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    #78
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    More Fine Gael fun. The party that never stops.


    Gardai send file to DPP on allegations of fraud and bribery against Fine Gael councillor

    "The FG councillor, who has close links to Taoiseach Enda Kenny, has been accused of offering to help secure planning permission for another councillor, in exchange for stopping an investigation into the appointment of a senior local authority official.

    The investigation centres on a 30-minute conversation between the two councillors, which was secretly recorded before being passed to gardai."

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-send-file-to-dpp-on-allegations-of-fraud-and-bribery-against-fine-gael-councillor-34158877.html

    Long gone is the myth that FG have a clean house. Before anyone starts, morally, Fianna Fail have been written off so no amount of whatabout can deflect.
    I find this kind of thing, should it be proven, is of bigger concern to the country than any other issue as it goes to the heart of our 'democracy'. So much for all the promises Enda, then he is a liar I suppose.


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    #79
    JustTheOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,681 ✭✭✭JustTheOne


    For Reals wrote: »
    More Fine Gael fun. The party that never stops.


    Gardai send file to DPP on allegations of fraud and bribery against Fine Gael councillor

    "The FG councillor, who has close links to Taoiseach Enda Kenny, has been accused of offering to help secure planning permission for another councillor, in exchange for stopping an investigation into the appointment of a senior local authority official.

    The investigation centres on a 30-minute conversation between the two councillors, which was secretly recorded before being passed to gardai."

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gardai-send-file-to-dpp-on-allegations-of-fraud-and-bribery-against-fine-gael-councillor-34158877.html

    Long gone is the myth that FG have a clean house. Before anyone starts, morally, Fianna Fail have been written off so no amount of whatabout can deflect.
    I find this kind of thing, should it be proven, is of bigger concern to the country than any other issue as it goes to the heart of our 'democracy'. So much for all the promises Enda, then he is a liar I suppose.

    fg councillor has denied any wrong doing.

    So just like everyone he is allowed a fair trial so can you pull your pants back up for the time being.


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    #80
    Ctrl Alt Delete
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Ctrl Alt Delete


    JustTheOne wrote: »
    fg councillor has denied any wrong doing.

    So just like everyone he is allowed a fair trial so can you pull your pants back up for the time being.

    But yet SF and Gerry Adams can have all sorts of accusations thrown at them without fair trial ???

    Lets be consistant here at least


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    #81
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    JustTheOne wrote: »
    fg councillor has denied any wrong doing.

    So just like everyone he is allowed a fair trial so can you pull your pants back up for the time being.

    So you skipped the "should it be proven" part? Straight to the PR.
    No debate just close ranks, nice.


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    #82
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    The most disappointing aspect of this government was the potential for proper change of how things have been done wrong for so long in politics and the public service .. A huge missed opportunity and they chose the paths of least resistance out of self preservation at pretty much every junction.

    Mistake one was promising so much at the last election. FF had done so much damage all the other parties has to say was that they weren't FF and that would of been enough to win a seat in most areas. But no, there had to be strong rhetoric BS that they would stand up to our paymasters and other crap.

    This made it more difficult to implement proper reform because they were more busy trying to pander to all parties then implement real institutional reform.

    The best that can be said about them is that they were good at following orders of our European masters. Then as soon as they get a chance to bring back Bertie economics, wham... We get a stereotypical FF bribe budget...

    But never mind that. Things are great now and it's all down to the stewardship of a politician that's remained long enough in power to strongly represent everything bad that he used to highlight in the previous immoral, unethical government that he swore would not continue .. 5 more years... 5 more years...


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    #83
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Drumpot wrote: »
    The most disappointing aspect of this government was the potential for proper change of how things have been done wrong for so long in politics and the public service .. A huge missed opportunity and they chose the paths of least resistance

    True..... Their 'reform' agenda was what the permanent government in Liberty Hall allowed them reform.

    But worry not gents, just 6 months left to go.....

    The SF/FF alternative government will cure all ills.


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    #84
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Drumpot wrote: »
    The most disappointing aspect of this government was the potential for proper change of how things have been done wrong for so long in politics and the public service .. A huge missed opportunity and they chose the paths of least resistance out of self preservation at pretty much every junction.

    Mistake one was promising so much at the last election. FF had done so much damage all the other parties has to say was that they weren't FF and that would of been enough to win a seat in most areas. But no, there had to be strong rhetoric BS that they would stand up to our paymasters and other crap.

    This made it more difficult to implement proper reform because they were more busy trying to pander to all parties then implement real institutional reform.

    The best that can be said about them is that they were good at following orders of our European masters. Then as soon as they get a chance to bring back Bertie economics, wham... We get a stereotypical FF bribe budget...

    But never mind that. Things are great now and it's all down to the stewardship of a politician that's remained long enough in power to strongly represent everything bad that he used to highlight in the previous immoral, unethical government that he swore would not continue .. 5 more years... 5 more years...

    Agreed 100%
    They may get back in based on spin but they will be way down on the last election for sure.

    Also it would be nice for once if the go to critique of anything non-FG party didn't involve derisory fanciful comments about 'dem others what would be worser'. Heard the same during Fianna Fails last stint.


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    #85
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    For Reals wrote: »
    Agreed 100%
    They may get back in based on spin but they will be way down on the last election for sure.

    Can you lay it out objectively what policies of the alternative government are superior to the incumbents?

    Obviously we know that FG are evil etc.... But what is it about the policies of the SF/FG coalition that seem better for Ireland?

    If you dislike "sure the others are worse" labels, you must know the alternative offer more?


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    #86
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    For Reals wrote: »
    Agreed 100%
    They may get back in based on spin but they will be way down on the last election for sure.

    Can you lay it out objectively what policies of the alternative government are superior to the incumbents?

    Obviously we know that FG are evil etc.... But what is it about the policies of the SF/FG coalition that seem better for Ireland?

    If you dislike "sure the others are worse" labels, you must know the alternative offer more?
    Its not that FG are evil, its that they are no better then the previous FF party that many believe to be the worst government in the history of the state.



    FG greatest "strength" in the last 4 years was doing what they were told by the EU paymasters. As soon as they have an opportunity to show that they learned from the previous FF failed budgetary policies, they have a bumper budget to buy an election. I don't think anybody, even their own supporters, could support that budget.



    Our situation is so precarious and is dependent on the global markets continuing to improve. A more subtle budget would of given us more room for downturns.



    I don't think anybody believes that there has been anything other then cosmetic change within the public service.



    These are things FG have done, not the other parties. Its a straw man argument to suggest that the other parties are as bad because they didn't force FG to do or not do anything. They had one of the strongest mandates any Irish government had and they chose to engage in the exact same politics as the party before them.







    FG share many of the same traits as the previous FF government. Cute hoorism politics, trying to buy elections, no real reform of public service, blind eye to possible corruption within their ranks and rampant cronyism.


    The mere fact that the benchmark was set so low by FF, that the country has recovered under their tenure and that they will struggle to get back into power really says all you need to know about this government.


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    #87
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Drumpot wrote: »
    they are no better then the previous FF party that many believe to be the worst government in the history of the state.
    And if I was to ask for empirical evidence of this, what would you provide?
    Our situation is so precarious and is dependent on the global markets continuing to improve. A more subtle budget would of given us more room for downturns.
    Last months budget adjustment amounted to 0.8% of GDP... In a year where GDP rose by over 5%.
    Very modest.

    So, again, what was it about the oppositions budget that you can objectively say was superior?
    Was it the SP/AAA's default on €90,000,000,000 of national debt?
    Was it SF's now annual list of tax rises?
    no real reform of public service
    And again.... What PS reform plans by the opposition did you find superior??
    Please lay them out?
    This would be particularly interesting for you to prove given the oppositions increasingly cosy relationship with the PS unions.

    The biggest "reform" from the opposition I've seen was to actually increase the bloated PS, while cutting HSE consultants pay by 60%, to the devastation of the health services......
    Reform?


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    #88
    Drumpot
    Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    BoJack Horseman wrote: »
    Drumpot wrote: »
    they are no better then the previous FF party that many believe to be the worst government in the history of the state.
    And if I was to ask for empirical evidence of this, what would you provide?
    Our situation is so precarious and is dependent on the global markets continuing to improve. A more subtle budget would of given us more room for downturns.
    Last months budget adjustment amounted to 0.8% of GDP... In a year where GDP rose by over 5%.
    Very modest.

    So, again, what was it about the oppositions budget that you can objectively say was superior?
    Was it the SP/AAA's default on €90,000,000,000 of national debt?
    Was it SF's now annual list of tax rises?
    no real reform of public service
    And again.... What PS reform plans by the opposition did you find superior??
    Please lay them out?
    This would be particularly interesting for you to prove given the oppositions increasingly cosy relationship with the PS unions.

    The biggest "reform" from the opposition I've seen was to actually increase the bloated PS, while cutting HSE consultants pay by 60%, to the devastation of the health services......
    Reform?
    Its a pretty weak effort to benchmark them against the opposition that constitutes "reformed" gangsters and the politicians that presided over the worst economic crash in the history of the state.



    If you think its a defence to say "well we aren't as bad as the other crowd", it only further highlights the lack of political will to implement real reform of any kind both politically and institutionally.

    You can spin the budgetary figures anyway you like (you do know that is just spin, the figures you quoted?!), but the FACT is that those figures don't count for anything if the world market takes a plunge. We are still heavily in debt and once again you are benchmarking us on a level that doesn't factor in the variables that Ireland cannot control. We can control what we spend, we cannot control the rest of the world markets.

    I think the dogs on the street could forward a reform plan for the PS, but its clear no political party have the will or vision to tackle this beast. Its not excusing FG by saying "well what plan have the others got", it only shows that they are no different in their approach.


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    #89
    BoJack Horseman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,248 ✭✭✭✭BoJack Horseman


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Its a pretty weak effort to benchmark them against the opposition that constitutes "reformed" gangsters and the politicians that presided over the worst economic crash in the history of the state.
    Silly.

    I can hardly benchmark the government against batman & Morgan Freeman can I?

    I mean, would you prefer me to benchmark our government against another opposition from another country?
    Its quite ridiculous to consider comparing the government to the opposition as a "weak effort".... there is no one else to benchmark the government against!

    Again, it's an extremely simple question....
    If the government is so terrible, what is it about the opposition (the only opposition we have!) that is superior?


    You can spin the budgetary figures anyway you like
    Please point out factual error.

    Again.... very simple... if the FG budget was so bad....
    What party's budget plan was superior!?

    its clear no political party have the will or vision to tackle this beast. Its not excusing FG by saying "well what plan have the others got", it only shows that they are no different in their approach.
    So, you that penny drops.
    PS reform starts & ends where the permanent government in Liberty hall allow it to.
    Its encouraging to see you acknowledge that the opposition are certainly no better, if not worse.

    You are making one thing obvious....
    T.I.N.A!


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    #90
    ezra_pound
    Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭ezra_pound


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Its a pretty weak effort to benchmark them against the opposition that constitutes "reformed" gangsters and the politicians that presided over the worst economic crash in the history of the state.



    If you think its a defence to say "well we aren't as bad as the other crowd", it only further highlights the lack of political will to implement real reform of any kind both politically and institutionally.

    You can spin the budgetary figures anyway you like (you do know that is just spin, the figures you quoted?!), but the FACT is that those figures don't count for anything if the world market takes a plunge. We are still heavily in debt and once again you are benchmarking us on a level that doesn't factor in the variables that Ireland cannot control. We can control what we spend, we cannot control the rest of the world markets.

    I think the dogs on the street could forward a reform plan for the PS, but its clear no political party have the will or vision to tackle this beast. Its not excusing FG by saying "well what plan have the others got", it only shows that they are no different in their approach.

    Well hang on there a minute.

    You're the one who benchmarked this government in relation to the last. You stated that this fg lab gov is no better than the last which is frankly not credible under any circumstances.

    This government are proving to be possibly the best in the history of the state.

    The Cowen administration on the other hand...


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    #91
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Drumpot wrote: »

    I think the dogs on the street could forward a reform plan for the PS, but its clear no political party have the will or vision to tackle this beast. Its not excusing FG by saying "well what plan have the others got", it only shows that they are no different in their approach.

    Well if the dogs on the street can do it, maybe you could set out your reform plan for the public service. Will make interesting reading at least.


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