National Postcodes to be introduced

a65b2cd · 28-10-2015 10:36pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Any of these codes could have been linked to the Geodirectory and performed the function of Eircode.

Matching the ESB, Eir, or GNI databases to GeoDirectory to use as a postcode register is not without problems e.g. non-unique addresses could not be matched. Some address points have more than one MPRN so there would not be a one-to-one relationship and there are many households that do not have landlines or GPRNs. The ESB address file was pre-coded with Eircodes but presumably at best 50% to 60% of it was matchable.

There was no perfect solution but what we need now is faster implementation of the chosen solution. The Eircode ECAD file has alias addresses which is a big advantage for some users of ECAD to identify repeat customers.

I expect the election next year will provide a major impetus to improve the electoral register

to reduce multiple registration.

Carawaystick · 29-10-2015 1:59pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

And everyone who receives post has a PPS number.

This isn't true.
Recent arrivals to the state don't have ppsn's but can receive post.

ukoda · 29-10-2015 2:09pm

I see Parcel Motel aka Nightline are using eircodes on the parcels they deliver to the Parcel Motels around the country

First use by a courier I've seen, interesting that this isn't an eircode provided by the customer, this is for use on their own labels they put on parcels to deliver to the Parcel Motels. So they've obviously bought the database and integrated it into their systems.

If you look up that eircode it points to the info desk of the shopping centre the parcel motel is located in

swampgas · 29-10-2015 3:15pm

Does anyone know if the Property Price Register will use Eircodes in the future? Last time I checked this morning, the properties I saw didn't have any Eircode, and there didn't appear to be a field for it either.

I've heard stories of rural addresses being made deliberately vague when submitted to the property register to prevent easy recognition of the house ... adding the Eircode would be a big improvement.

29-10-2015 5:15pm

swampgas wrote: »

Does anyone know if the Property Price Register will use Eircodes in the future? Last time I checked this morning, the properties I saw didn't have any Eircode, and there didn't appear to be a field for it either.

I've heard stories of rural addresses being made deliberately vague when submitted to the property register to prevent easy recognition of the house ... adding the Eircode would be a big improvement.

Did you check the most recent sales, it may be that they only enter the postcodes if it was on the documentation submitted.

JohnC. · 29-10-2015 6:37pm

ukoda wrote: »

I see Parcel Motel aka Nightline are using eircodes on the parcels they deliver to the Parcel Motels around the country

Nightline have always been behind it. Press releases supporting it and stuff on their site welcoming it at launch.

ukoda · 29-10-2015 6:45pm

Kahless wrote: »

Nightline have always been behind it. Press releases supporting it and stuff on their site welcoming it at launch.

True, however there have been "doubters" who claimed Nightline hadn't actually integrated it, this shows they have

swampgas · 29-10-2015 10:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you check the most recent sales, it may be that they only enter the postcodes if it was on the documentation submitted.

I checked some recent sales but no eircode. I had guessed (incorrectly) that the register would make the eircode mandatory, but not yet, it seems ...

30-10-2015 7:14am

swampgas wrote: »

I checked some recent sales but no eircode. I had guessed (incorrectly) that the register would make the eircode mandatory, but not yet, it seems ...

Selling a house can be quite a long process, maybe they'll start to appear as houses that came onto the market after the launch of the postcodes (and had the postcode in their address) start to sell.

Bray Head · 30-10-2015 9:01am

swampgas wrote: »

Does anyone know if the Property Price Register will use Eircodes in the future? Last time I checked this morning, the properties I saw didn't have any Eircode, and there didn't appear to be a field for it either.

I've heard stories of rural addresses being made deliberately vague when submitted to the property register to prevent easy recognition of the house ... adding the Eircode would be a big improvement.

You now have to enter an LPT property ID if you want to register the sale of a property and pay stamp duty. Presumably Revenue have a file that matches the LPT property ID with the eircode database. Between the PRSA and Revenue it should be administratively simple to ensure that an eircode is included with every PPR entry. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

This is esoteric I know but it would allow for the creation of a Case-Shiller-type house price index for Ireland. It is based on repeat sales of the same property rather than a hedonic approach (used by the CSO) and is likely more accurate.

Bray Head · 01-11-2015 8:52am

Eoghan Harris has an article today in the Sindo.

Highlights below:

Meantime, in 2010, Gary Delaney laid out Loc8, his attractive alternative postcode and offered it to the government for free. Experts as well as freight carriers found it efficient, easy to use, and as a bonus it covered all 32 counties.

Unlike Eircode, Loc8 is not limited to just letterboxes and does not need access to a database to use. It is a free standard feature on Garmin satnavs.

Loc8 was launched with the support of Enterprise Ireland and received matched funding. A private investor, you might expect it would be shoo-in to get the licence to supply the new postal code.

Not so. The 2012 terms of the tender extraordinarily excluded companies without a €40m turnover.

That meant Loc8 was out. Captiva a British company, got the contract.

oscarBravo · 01-11-2015 1:07pm

So he sets out to compare Eircode and Loc8; the metrics by which he judges them happen to be those by which Loc8 can arguably outperform Eircode (because, let's face it, the single most important design criterion for a postcode is that it be useful for identifying locations other than postal addresses, right?)

OK, let's try a different metric: Loc8 is "better" because it "doesn't need a database", apparently. Last week, I needed to know the location of every premise within a given distance of a given point. One Eircode query later, and I had my answer.

If someone can explain to me how to do that with Loc8 codes, and without a database, I'm all ears.

ukoda · 01-11-2015 1:27pm

It's getting a bit tiresome now with people claiming "no need for a database" as some kind of advantage to a postcode. A postcode that can't validate an address against the national address database is not fit for purpose. That's why loc8 would never have been awarded the contract even if they weren't "blocked*" from tendering.

*they weren't actually blocked, they just couldn't figure out that all they needed was backing from a partner, and sure loc8 is the perfect code so who wouldn't want to back it!

It's incredibly pathetic to look at Gary Delaney on Twitter every single day spouting mostly untruths and harassing anyone who mentions eircode in any thing but a negative capacity. It's so unprofessional, but his anger is blinding him.
It's also pretty obvious that the momentum to complain about eircode is slowly dying down, he's becoming a lone voice now and very few people retweet or favourite anything he says anymore

costarbravo · 01-11-2015 1:46pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

OK, let's try a different metric: Loc8 is "better" because it "doesn't need a database", apparently. Last week, I needed to know the location of every premise within a given distance of a given point. One Eircode query later, and I had my answer.

to be precise so as not to mislead readers, the Eircode postcode is not needed to do this. Geodirectory & simple GIS/Geo tools have been providing these answers for years. Ignoring addresses, this can also be done manually on Google Earth.

ukoda · 01-11-2015 4:18pm

costarbravo wrote: »

to be precise so as not to mislead readers, the Eircode postcode is not needed to do this. Geodirectory & simple GIS/Geo tools have been providing these answers for years. Ignoring addresses, this can also be done manually on Google Earth.

That's why they added eircode to the geodirectory, so as not to reinvent the wheel, just add to it. And by the way, geoditectory is now an eircode ECAD reseller, so there's no standalone geoditectory product now that doesn't already include eircode as standard.

oscarBravo · 01-11-2015 4:22pm

costarbravo wrote: »

to be precise so as not to mislead readers, the Eircode postcode is not needed to do this. Geodirectory & simple GIS/Geo tools have been providing these answers for years.

"Loc8 is great, because it doesn't need a database. And, for anything it can't do, there's a database."

It would be funny if it wasn't so bloody repetitive.

plodder · 01-11-2015 7:42pm

ukoda wrote: »

It's getting a bit tiresome now with people claiming "no need for a database" as some kind of advantage to a postcode.

But it is an advantage. There are different things that a postcode can be used for and arguably the most important ones don't require a database (eg navigation). And in fact postcodes that only have a database (like Eircode) can only navigate you to locations in the database, whereas gecodes allow you to navigate anywhere.

A postcode that can't validate an address against the national address database is not fit for purpose. That's why loc8 would never have been awarded the contract even if they weren't "blocked*" from tendering.

A database could have been created for this purpose. But, as per above, people who didn't need this database shouldn't be forced to license it. Of course, this has been pointed out numerous times before.

ukoda · 01-11-2015 7:55pm

plodder wrote: »

But it is an advantage. There are different things that a postcode can be used for and arguably the most important ones don't require a database (eg navigation). And in fact postcodes that only have a database (like Eircode) can only navigate you to locations in the database, whereas gecodes allow you to navigate anywhere.

A database could have been created for this purpose. But, as per above, people who didn't need this database shouldn't be forced to license it. Of course, this has been pointed out numerous times before.

No one is forcing anyone to buy anything, do a few maths equations and work out if the database is a good business investment and choose to buy it if you want. For the public, eircode can help you navigate to addresses, 99 times out of 100, an address is where you want to go. For the times you want to navigate to a patch of grass in a field.... Drop a pin on google maps, or get its loc8 code and buy the one and only brand of device that allows you navigate with it. Or if you've an iPhone pay €5 for the app that lets you get a loc8 but not navigate with it. The choice is yours.

plodder · 01-11-2015 8:38pm

ukoda wrote: »

No one is forcing anyone to buy anything, do a few maths equations and work out if the database is a good business investment and choose to buy it if you want. For the public, eircode can help you navigate to addresses, 99 times out of 100, an address is where you want to go. For the times you want to navigate to a patch of grass in a field.... Drop a pin on google maps, or get its loc8 code and buy the one and only brand of device that allows you navigate with it. Or if you've an iPhone pay €5 for the app that lets you get a loc8 but not navigate with it. The choice is yours.

Satnav vendors or anyone who wants to convert a postcode to a location is forced to license the database (directly or indirectly). If the postcode was a geocode, you wouldn't have to license anything.

ukoda · 01-11-2015 8:47pm

plodder wrote: »

Satnav vendors or anyone who wants to convert a postcode to a location is forced to license the database (directly or indirectly). If the postcode was a geocode, you wouldn't have to license anything.

You seem to be adamant that you can't licence a geo code? Wrong. In fact loc8 have a licensing model you have to pay for.

Here's a whole webpage from loc8code dedicated to how to pay them to use their code.

http://www.myloc8ion.com/products/licensing

Your argument of "a geo code is better because it has no licence fee" is complete crap.

You can licence a geo code or give it for free
You can licence a database or give it for free

One of the requirements is for the code to be self financing. A licence fee would apply to any code to fulfil that requirement.

Bray Head · 01-11-2015 9:42pm

You can in principle make an argument for the free provision of the eircode database to anyone who asks (at taxpayers' expense of course).

For consistency you would also have to advocate for example:
-Free NCT
-Free driving tests
-Free passports
-Free licence renewal for publicans
-Free copies of birth certificates

These are all state-provided monopoly goods or services where some or all of the costs involved are recouped from users.

plodder · 01-11-2015 11:38pm

ukoda wrote: »

You seem to be adamant that you can't licence a geo code? Wrong. In fact loc8 have a licensing model you have to pay for.

You seem to think I'm on here on behalf of loc8. I'm not. The state could have designed its own geocode, with nothing to do with loc8.

plodder · 01-11-2015 11:39pm

Bray Head wrote: »

You can in principle make an argument for the free provision of the eircode database to anyone who asks (at taxpayers' expense of course).

For consistency you would also have to advocate for example:
-Free NCT
-Free driving tests
-Free passports
-Free licence renewal for publicans
-Free copies of birth certificates

These are all state-provided monopoly goods or services where some or all of the costs involved are recouped from users.

I don't think any such database should be free. It's more that people who don't need it shouldn't have to pay for it.

ukoda · 01-11-2015 11:47pm

plodder wrote: »

You seem to think I'm on here on behalf of loc8. I'm not. The state could have designed its own geocode, with nothing to do with loc8.

I don't think that, I think you tried to assoisate a database code with being a licenced code and that geo codes were by nature free. I'm simply pointing out that youre wrong on that, I don't care what you are or aren't connected to, I just used loc8 as an example of a licensed geo code.

Your claim of "if it was a geo code it would be free" is wrong.

ukoda · 01-11-2015 11:49pm

plodder wrote: »

I don't think any such database should be free. It's more that people who don't need it shouldn't have to pay for it.

That's the whole point of a licence fee, so that end users pay, you know, the people who need and want it.

Eircode works on the same principle as a Passport, the state own it and covered the cost to set it up (technology / people / logistics costs) but they don't dish out passports for free, they recover some costs by charging end users. The exact same set up as eircode. The only difference here is that it's commercial entities who they want to charge, I.e. Companies, and in turn those companies could actually increase their profits by using eircode.

plodder · 02-11-2015 12:46am

ukoda wrote: »

That's the whole point of a licence fee, so that end users pay, you know, the people who need and want it.

Eircode works on the same principle as a Passport, the state own it and covered the cost to set it up (technology / people / logistics costs) but they don't dish out passports for free, they recover some costs by charging end users. The exact same set up as eircode. The only difference here is that it's commercial entities who they want to charge, I.e. Companies, and in turn those companies could actually increase their profits by using eircode.

What you're missing I think is that the state didn't need to go to all that expense. A geocode could have been established at almost no cost. A geocode is no more than a mathematical formula that converts letters and numbers to locations (latitude and longitude). There is any number of them. loc8 isn't the only one.

The state obviously has an interest in having a database of unique codes. So, the state should just pay for that, and maybe offsetting some of the cost onto other parties who are also interested in unique codes. But, it's not fair to impose that cost on people who don't have the same interest. Surely you see that.

ukoda · 02-11-2015 9:38am

plodder wrote: »

What you're missing I think is that the state didn't need to go to all that expense. A geocode could have been established at almost no cost. A geocode is no more than a mathematical formula that converts letters and numbers to locations (latitude and longitude). There is any number of them. loc8 isn't the only one.

The state obviously has an interest in having a database of unique codes. So, the state should just pay for that, and maybe offsetting some of the cost onto other parties who are also interested in unique codes. But, it's not fair to impose that cost on people who don't have the same interest. Surely you see that.

I think what your failing to see is that the state did exactly what you claim they should have done. they created and paid for eircode and are trying to offset the cost by making it for sale to interested other parties....

marmurr1916 · 02-11-2015 10:05am

plodder wrote: »

What you're missing I think is that the state didn't need to go to all that expense. A geocode could have been established at almost no cost. A geocode is no more than a mathematical formula that converts letters and numbers to locations (latitude and longitude). There is any number of them. loc8 isn't the only one.

The state obviously has an interest in having a database of unique codes. So, the state should just pay for that, and maybe offsetting some of the cost onto other parties who are also interested in unique codes. But, it's not fair to impose that cost on people who don't have the same interest. Surely you see that.

Which people who 'don't have the same interest' are having any significant costs imposed on them?

The total cost of developing eircodes and Capita's management of eircode over the contract period (assuming this €38 million figure is accurate) is just over 0.8c per head of population (based on the 2011 Census population figure, which has already increased and will increase over the 10 year lifetime of the contract), hardly a huge amount of money.

If the €27 million cost cited in this Dáil debate is correct, it works out at about 0.6c per head of population per year, again based on the 2011 census figure of 4,588,252 people.

Assuming a total cost of €38 million over 10 years, and assuming an average population of 4,750,000 over the contract lifetime, it will have cost 0.8 cents per person per year to implement and manage eircodes by the time the contract ends.

If you still find the burden of paying that amount per year too much, PM me your bank details and I'll credit your account with 10 cents, a profit of 2 cents for you!

Only companies and individuals who want full access to the database plus the ability to leverage the database for commercial or other purposes have to pay extra. And presumably these are people who are interested in using eircodes...

plodder · 02-11-2015 10:28am

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Which people who 'don't have the same interest' are having any significant costs imposed on them?

People in the transport/logistics sector for example. They have no interest in unique codes. They seemed to be happy with loc8 and I think they would be happy with any geocode.

The total cost of developing eircodes and Capita's management of eircode over the contract period (assuming this €38 million figure is accurate) is just over 0.8c per head of population (based on the 2011 Census population figure, which has already increased and will increase over the 10 year lifetime of the contract), hardly a huge amount of money.

If the €27 million cost cited in this Dáil debate is correct, it works out at about 0.6c per head of population per year, again based on the 2011 census figure of 4,588,252 people.

Assuming a total cost of €38 million over 10 years, and assuming an average population of 4,750,000 over the contract lifetime, it will have cost 0.8 cents per person per year to implement and manage eircodes by the time the contract ends.

If you still find the burden of paying that amount per year too much, PM me your bank details and I'll credit your account with 10 cents, a profit of 2 cents for you!

Only companies and individuals who want full access to the database plus the ability to leverage the database for commercial or other purposes have to pay extra. And presumably these are people who are interested in using eircodes...

I don't know what to say to this. 38 million is still 38 million. Think about what else it could be spent on. How many teachers or nurses could be funded by that money, for instance?

ukoda · 02-11-2015 10:37am

plodder wrote: »

People in the transport/logistics sector for example. They have no interest in unique codes. They seemed to be happy with loc8 and I think they would be happy with any geocode.

And which of those companies is having the code forced on them? And which ones are now banned from continuing to use a geo code?

None of them, I'm still failing to see who is being "forced to pay" as you claim.

National Postcodes to be introduced

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