National Postcodes to be introduced

brandodub

I am now beginning to see more of eircode usage. Got a mail last week of my office eircode.

Impetus

MarkK wrote: »

I remember my eircode easily.

Some of us are old enough to have had to remember all our friends 6 or 7 digit phone numbers as we did not have mobiles and had to dial each digit individually! by hand! each time!

So remembering the 4 characters of the local part of an Eircode is not much of s stretch.

Lucky you - it depends on the random assignment you get. I suspect that "D04 AAAA" would be easy. But most people have a mix of alpha characters and numbers, and the prefix code has nothing to do with the town or county.

A building I know has an X365 ending to their postcode. But I struggle to think of the initial 3 characters.

And if you are involved in logistics, the randomisation of the last four characters makes the non-system a total dog's dinner. I feature of incompetent political interference added that, or so it appears.

99.9% of codes are total rubbish when it comes to user-friendliness.

The incompetent minister should apologise and resign. Ireland needs a functional postcode system that complies with international norms. And a street/road address for each building. There is no alternative.

JohnC.

Impetus wrote: »

None of the main international logistics services uses the Eircode.

DHL does not – they black out the postcode space if you select country = Ireland
http://dct.dhl.com/


ups.com


https://www.fedex.com/ratefinder/standalone?method=destinationCountryChange

It doesn’t even work on Google maps – maps.google.com

Yet, you mean. These things take time to roll out. Aren't Google known to be working on it at least? Large organisations can take quite some time to add the simplest of things.

TheChizler

Kahless wrote: »

Yet, you mean. These things take time to roll out. Aren't Google known to be working on it at least? Large organisations can take quite some time to add the simplest of things.

I can imagine it being quite complicated for the likes of Google, they're essentially proposing to redistribute for free a wholesale database, have to get the usage agreement spot on.

Sam Russell

Impetus wrote: »

Nobody remembers it. It is a random number. Chances of them remembering somebody else's code are as close to 0 as to be inconceivable.

You are obviously/would appear to be a "spokesperson" for the incompetents behind the Eircode. <snip>

Moderator: Keep to the topic - do not attack the poster.

FishOnABike

ukoda wrote: »

I believe the other car on the road here is loc8 code, it had 5 years to embed itself as useful and gain wide spread adoption, it failed.

If it had succeeded and became popular to the point of widespread adoption, eircode would never have seen the light of day. But it didn't.

It's not the only other car on the road. We had the opportunity to design something from the ground up to create world class functional commercially successful postal code and we came up with a half baked hamstrung effort.

Bray Head

I thought this was interesting.

Department of Agriculture is (somewhat unsurprisingly) looking for your eircode.

The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine want to keep your contact details up to date. As you know there has been a recent launch of Eircodes for every postal address in the country. For more details or to find your Eircode, click on the Eircode logos at the bottom of the page.As most of our customers do not have unique addresses, we need you to confirm your Eircode.

If you are registered with www.agfood.ie, you can update/add your Eircode online. If you do not have access to our online services, please consider Registering. It's quick and will be of help later!

An update form for these details is also available on our Contacts Update page. If you wish to update your details by post please use the Contacts Update Sign Up Form (doc 76Kb) and forward to: CCS Section, Customer Updates, Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Government Buildings, Farnham Street, Cavan H12 D459.

GJG

Bray Head wrote: »

I thought this was interesting.

Department of Agriculture is (somewhat unsurprisingly) looking for your eircode.

Given that the Slab Murphy trial rests to a large degree on identifying which T Murphy received what grants, bought what cattle and so on, I'd say that Eircode will be an important tool for the Department of Agriculture. I'm not sure those in the ah informal economy will be so enthusiastic.

plodder

Just got a form for updating the electoral register which contains a spot for your Eircode. The accompanying letter requests that the Eircode be provided, but doesn't say that it is mandatory (which it isn't obviously). This might be the first proper benchmark of how much people have engaged with it.

Just applied for a taxsaver refund after the rail strike and the form had a field for the postcode and only two lines for the address,

marmurr1916

Deleted User wrote: »

Just applied for a taxsaver refund after the rail strike and the form had a field for the postcode and only two lines for the address,

Seems sufficient to me:

12 Any Street
Anytown
A65 B2DE

Townland
County
A65 B2DE

marmurr1916

MarkK wrote: »

I remember my eircode easily.

Some of us are old enough to have had to remember all our friends 6 or 7 digit phone numbers as we did not have mobiles and had to dial each digit individually! by hand! each time!

So remembering the 4 characters of the local part of an Eircode is not much of s stretch.

If you can remember a 4-digit PIN, it's not that hard to remember the 4 character part of an Eircode.

Remembering the 3 character routing key is as easy as remembering 087 or 021 etc.

marmurr1916

Impetus wrote: »

Ireland needs a functional postcode system that complies with international norms.

What international norms? Got a link to the website of the International Norms For Postcodes Organisation (hint: it ain't the Universal Postal Union)?

Impetus wrote: »

And a street/road address for each building. There is no alternative.

There is. It's being used as I type. It's called Eircode...

Sam Russell

marmurr1916 wrote: »

If you can remember a 4-digit PIN, it's not that hard to remember the 4 character part of an Eircode.

Remembering the 3 character routing key is as easy as remembering 087 or 021 etc.

Four numbers like 2034 is easier than random characters/numbers like F5H7. Routing keys like 053 or 087 is easier to remember that meaningless codes like F67. Numbers can be recalled easier than mixed letters and numbers particularly when they have no meaning. Numbers are easier on character recognition than letters and numbers.

I believe the whole thing was deliberately designed not to work - why else choose such a bad design?

TheChizler

Sam Russell wrote: »

Four numbers like 2034 is easier than random characters/numbers like F5H7. Routing keys like 053 or 087 is easier to remember that meaningless codes like F67. Numbers can be recalled easier than mixed letters and numbers particularly when they have no meaning. Numbers are easier on character recognition than letters and numbers.

I believe the whole thing was deliberately designed not to work - why else choose such a bad design?

I find alphanumeric combinations much easier to remember than numeric only, I can only remember cork and Dublin area codes, I have a handful of Eircode areas learned off without trying a few months into it. I feel the leading letter helps to partition mentally.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

I believe the whole thing was deliberately designed not to work - why else choose such a bad design?

It's getting a little tiresome having to repeatedly point out that Eircodes are, in fact, working for me.

I had a project I needed to work on over the bank holiday weekend. Having access to the Eircode database (even through a reseller) made it much easier - in fact, I'd go so far as to say it made it possible.

But never mind that. You personally have trouble remembering a seven-character code, therefore they don't work, therefore they must have been designed not to work. Because that makes sense.

Bray Head

Sam Russell wrote: »

Four numbers like 2034 is easier than random characters/numbers like F5H7. Routing keys like 053 or 087 is easier to remember that meaningless codes like F67. Numbers can be recalled easier than mixed letters and numbers particularly when they have no meaning. Numbers are easier on character recognition than letters and numbers.

I believe the whole thing was deliberately designed not to work - why else choose such a bad design?

Here I have some anecdotes too.

I can remember both plate number of my parents' pre-87 cars. I can't remember anything of my last car's plate number bar the year and county.

I had three postcodes and two phone numbers when I lived in the UK. I can remember all of my postcodes but only one of my phone numbers.

What does this prove? Nothing, because it's based on my subjective experience.

If you want to make these claims I suggest you find some kind of scientific evidence which suggests that numerical codes have significantly better recall properties than alpha-numerical ones.

Until then it's just opinions.

GJG

Bray Head wrote: »

Here I have some anecdotes too.

I can remember both plate number of my parent's pre-87 cars. I can't remember anything of my last car's plate number bar the year and county.

I had three postcodes and two phone numbers when I lived in the UK. I can remember all of my postcodes but only one of my phone numbers.

What does this prove? Nothing, because it's based on my subjective experience.

If you want to make these claims I suggest you find some kind of scientific evidence which suggests that numerical codes have significantly better recall properties than alpha-numerical ones.

Until then it's just opinions.

In addition, Eircode uses a 26-character set (excluding the other 10 because of similarity of sound (E and D) or look (8 and . Using numbers only would require either an 11-character code instead of the seven-character Eircode to get the same level of variety, or abandoning the Eircode policy of not having any Eircode with just a single-character difference from another Eircode. Either of those would of course cause confusion and difficulty in remembering the codes.

I wouldn't bother asking for evidence, that is to attempt to initiate a rational discussion. You can't defeat an irrational reaction with a rational discussion. Equally a moment's thought is enough to clarify that using county names to provide the first letter is nonsense. Several of them are on the excluded list, and in any case who gets 'C'? Carlow, Cavan, Clare or Cork? And that's only if (as would surely cause resistance) if it was based on the English-language names. What about Ciarraí, Cill Dara and Cill Chainnigh?

Sam Russell

Bray Head wrote: »

Until then it's just opinions.

Exactly.

MBSnr

It's good to see it finally starting to ramp up. Although I do agree with the posters who have mentioned that they may have been forgotten by most. This will change with more exposure and use. I thought I had mine remembered but I transposed two chars on an online delivery form by mistake. Ironically it made no odds as the courier rang for directions anyhow and wasn't using Eircode...

Bray Head

Sam Russell wrote: »

Exactly.

Yes, but that was a request to you to back up your opinion with evidence rather than anecdotes.

FishOnABike

MBSnr wrote: »

I transposed two chars on an online delivery form by mistake. Ironically it made no odds as the courier rang for directions anyhow and wasn't using Eircode...

I was getting some parcels delivered last week and had updated online accounts to include my eircode. Some were delivered by courier who rang for directions. Others were delivered by An Post who didn't need directions but chatting to the postman when he delivered the parcels said they didn't use the eircode either. It would appear the increased inclusion of eircodes is no indicator of their use or usefulness.

Sam Russell

Bray Head wrote: »

Yes, but that was a request to you to back up your opinion with evidence rather than anecdotes.

I have spent some time looking at the result of this design.

There are 139 routing codes pointing to post towns but there are 2,000 or so post towns. The 3 character code could accommodate 2,000 post towns - 26 characters followed by two digits allows for 2600 codes. This would allow 1,000 addresses on average per routing code.

Some routing codes are enclaves and some are separated by another routing codes. Some are huge and some are tiny. There is no design logic in them whatsoever.

Why was it designed to suit An Post who have maintained all along that they did not need it and did not want it?

Anyway - opinions.

MBSnr

FishOnABike wrote: »

I was getting some parcels delivered last week and had updated online accounts to include my eircode. Some were delivered by courier who rang for directions. Others were delivered by An Post who didn't need directions but chatting to the postman when he delivered the parcels said they didn't use the eircode either. It would appear the increased inclusion of eircodes is no indicator of their use or usefulness.

I used to get parcels delivered to work, but we were told not to use this for personal items... Unfortunately I've got to the point (over the last two months) were I'm fed up of trying to describe where I live to couriers and have just started using my work address again for deliveries. At least they can get to that without phoning...

Once they start using Eircode to find the property, I'll switch back. Could be using the work address for a while though I think... :eek:

Bray Head

FishOnABike wrote: »

I was getting some parcels delivered last week and had updated online accounts to include my eircode. Some were delivered by courier who rang for directions. Others were delivered by An Post who didn't need directions but chatting to the postman when he delivered the parcels said they didn't use the eircode either. It would appear the increased inclusion of eircodes is no indicator of their use or usefulness.

I found it took most Irish SMEs about a decade to figure out how to use email.

That did not invalidate email as a useful business tool.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have spent some time looking at the result of this design.

And that's why you're missing the fundamental point of eircodes: they can be used to uniquely identify and reliably locate premises.

If you're obsessing over the design, while ignoring the actual functionality, of course you're not going to understand how useful they can be. You're complaining about not being able to leverage the design, but ignoring the fact that you can leverage the data.

Can I tell roughly how close an eircode is to (say) Castlebar just by looking at it? No, I can't. But that doesn't matter, because the software I use can tell me precisely how close to Castlebar it is. Complaining that the design doesn't allow you to mentally approximate something, when the implementation allows you to precisely calculate it, strikes me as shadow boxing.

MBSnr

^^^
I was impressed that Mayo CC put on their website a list of all services with the Eircode. The problem, of course, is that unless you use the finder.eircode.com and either go with their map or 'resize the window' to get the directions button (to open in google maps) they're kinda useless. A bit of jumping through hoops that the average Joe isn't going to do or know.

I'm surprised that Google Maps don't support Eircode look ups yet as surely this is the push that it needs for maximum adoption....

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

And that's why you're missing the fundamental point of eircodes: they can be used to uniquely identify and reliably locate premises.

If you're obsessing over the design, while ignoring the actual functionality, of course you're not going to understand how useful they can be. You're complaining about not being able to leverage the design, but ignoring the fact that you can leverage the data.

Can I tell roughly how close an eircode is to (say) Castlebar just by looking at it? No, I can't. But that doesn't matter, because the software I use can tell me precisely how close to Castlebar it is. Complaining that the design doesn't allow you to mentally approximate something, when the implementation allows you to precisely calculate it, strikes me as shadow boxing.

Yea, well, every house with electricity has a code assigned by ESB Networks that identifies the property. As does every house with a telephone have one from Eircom (now Eir) and the same for Gas. Now every address that gets post has an Eircode. If you do not have gas, electricity, telephone or post then you do not have any numbers that identify your address.

And everyone who receives post has a PPS number. Wow, so all we need is a single database to link all these together - except for data protection..

Except that Eircode, in the case of the 30% or so of non-unique addresses cannot do this without contravening data protection.

Now, because there are software solutions that work, brilliant - but they are not available to Joe Citizen. I just get 'Too many addresses' when I try to find rural addresses using the Eircode finder. I have the correct address, just cannot get an Eircode for it.

When both Google and Garmin incorporate them, then we are good to go - probably.

oscarBravo

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yea, well, every house with electricity has a code assigned by ESB Networks that identifies the property. As does every house with a telephone have one from Eircom (now Eir) and the same for Gas. Now every address that gets post has an Eircode.

There's a core difference between those: I don't have access to ESB's database, or eir's (actually, I do, but that's not particularly relevant; it's also, if you've ever seen it, not particularly useful), or GNI's.

I do have access to the Eircode database, and it's extremely useful.

When both Google and Garmin incorporate them, then we are good to go - probably.

That gives the lie to the idea that Eircodes are inherently useless, or broken by design, or whatever the moan du jour is. What makes them useful is a software interface that's appropriate for a given user.

Not all those interfaces are in place yet. This puts a crimp in their usefulness, true. But if all that's missing is an appropriate interface (be it Google, or Garmin, or whatever) then there can't be too much wrong with the fundamentals of the design.

Sam Russell

oscarBravo wrote: »

There's a core difference between those: I don't have access to ESB's database, or eir's (actually, I do, but that's not particularly relevant; it's also, if you've ever seen it, not particularly useful), or GNI's.

Any of these codes could have been linked to the Geodirectory and performed the function of Eircode.

We could and should have done so much better.