Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

johnb25 · 29-09-2015 01:52PM

Does the fact that the team has mutinied, and turned on the current management, make them a less attractive proposition to any incoming manager? Could they be seen as unmanageable?

davegrohl48 · 29-09-2015 01:52PM

MfMan wrote: »

Have to totally disagree. Rochford undoubtedly has great managerial merits but Corofin's team and panel last year was one of the strongest ever to emerge in a Galway club (and indeed in any club for many's a year). An almost perfect blend of youth, experience, pace, incision, scoring ability, defensive solidity etc. Had men of county or county-standard calibre in every line. Dismissed with almost nonchalant ease every side they met last year.

As for Mayo's current woes, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I don't think the mgmt. team that's there are good enough to win Sam, their tactical deficiencies were shown up at the top level, in fairness both days v Dublin. Equally though, the team's problems came to light also; Higgins and Boyle have gone back in a year, FB line was never fully settled or tight enough, even Galway showed that up. Forwards such as McLoughlin and Doherty don't hurt teams enough with scores. Even great warrior that he is, Aodan O'Se struggled with the pace in the later stages v Dublin and showed that his influence could be neutralised by proper planning.

Sadly, I really think Mayo's ship has sailed for the moment; last year was maybe the most one that got away. They came within a kick of a ball of beating Dublin in the drawn match in August but I do think Kerry this year, like Dublin, would have had too much striking power for them in a final. The mgmt. team may need to be changed, or modified, but long-term, without an influx of 3-4 'ready-to-go' players I don't think it will make any difference. Mayo will still be a top-5 team for the next few seasons at least but as they stand at present they simply aren't good enough to get across the line. All IMHO of course.

I don't think we are too far apart in our point of views.
- They had wasn't it two county panellists. Lundy and Sice? This is from top of me head now. Burke was in there before but is hurling now only I understand. Lundy is okay at county level, Sice is a good player at county level.
- Kieran Fitzgerald getting on in years
Put that all together, yes they can win a club title, very suprising that they did it so comfortable. Winning the club title comfortable you would think they'd have what, maybe at least 5 county panellists with three starting?
How did they manage to win the club title so comfortably is the point I am getting at. Outstanding teamwork and preparation I believe is the answer. Of course yes the players are competitive, but by no means could you just rely on talent with the squad they had. Hence my point that Rochford added immensely to Corofins season by improving the teamwork and preparations of the squad.

davegrohl48 · 29-09-2015 01:56PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

This is utterly irrelevant. Neither had Jim Gavin, Jim McGuinness, Eamon Fitzmaurice, Kevin Heffernan, Mick O'Dwyer, Sean Boylan, Billy Morgan, James Horan, Mickey Harte and virtually every successful manager in the history of the game.

Pat Holmes on the other hand had plenty of inter county management experience.

When I hear this "never managed at intercounty" line thrown out, it's very annoying. Its irrelevant. To win a club All-Ireland is extremely tough, up there in terms of achievement with an inter-county All-Ireland.

Quoting me out of context there, have edited original post to make clearer. I only included that line about Rochford never managing at county level as it always gets brought up by others to dismiss the idea of club managers. I'm an advocate that Rochford should get the Mayo position. I think club management can prove or disprove a managers abilities to improve his squad and get a game plan in place. Personally I don't dismiss someones credentials just because it is club.

Defiler Of The Coffin · 29-09-2015 02:09PM

km79 wrote: »

problem with that is we are back to square one
year one of a new manager
in my opinion this team has one big year left in them. next year. the draw is favourable. Roscommon galway getting stronger
it has to be next year
we dont have time for a new inexperienced intercounty manager coming in.......so who does that leave..... dare I say the players may want Horan back?

I don't buy this at all. We were saying the same things last year.

I just don't think we're currently as good as some of our fans think we are. The team needs major surgery and any new management team must be given time to undertake it.

On a better day in Limerick (and in the drawn game) we would have beaten Kerry. In a final against Donegal we would have been in a very strong position to win. At the end of last year I (and plenty others) were saying that the team needed tweaking, some new tactics, a couple of new players to give us that extra few percent to get us over the line. Basically that's what Noel and Pat provided and it wasn't enough.

IMO this team's best chance of winning Sam was in 2013 when we were playing the best football I've ever seen Mayo play. It was there for the taking and we didn't do it. For me that's the one that hurts the most.

Realistically I don't think we've progressed since. Dublin and Kerry have improved in the meantime and we haven't kept up. Certainly we are not at the level of Dublin. Kerry we could arguably challenge but unless we beat them in the championship I won't be convinced.

Ruthlessness is needed here. Whoever is in place next year needs to drop the passengers and bring in the Byrnes, Fordes, Loftuses, whoever is showing promise and blood them. We need new tactics and a proper defensive plan. That's what got Donegal over the line. They didn't have the depth of other counties but tactically they were way ahead. We've produced good footballers over the years but tactically we've been behind the curve and it's cost us All-Irelands. It needs to be remedied but it can't just be a one-year project. We can't bring in a new manager and expect them to win Sam in the first year. Top team or not it's just far too much to expect for a county that has won just one senior title since 1971.

So if the current management team has lost the dressing room then fair enough, it's probably best for everyone that they go. But lets not have another damaging shambles of a selection process. Everyone needs to row in behind the person who gets the job, and give them the time and space to work on the team.

Shurimgreat · 29-09-2015 02:11PM

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Quoting me out of context there, have edited original post to make clearer. I only included that line about Rochford never managing at county level as it always gets brought up by others to dismiss the idea of club managers. I'm an advocate that Rochford should get the Mayo position. I think club management can prove or disprove a managers abilities to improve his squad and get a game plan in place. Personally I don't dismiss someones credentials just because it is club.

Fair enough. I just get irritated when other people mention it. The top 4 or 5 modern inter county managers didn't have intercounty experience before getting the job. Most of the older managers who have plenty of experience are old and out of touch with the modern demands of the game. At this stage I'd always give the job to someone without intercounty experience. They'd have more hunger and desire too.

Ascii · 29-09-2015 02:14PM

I can’t understand how the management team that brought all Ireland success to Mayo in 2006 with probably 13 of these players can find themselves to be hated (by the same bunch of players more or less) after less than a year. I was never a fan of two managers but I felt on past merit they deserved a couple of years and I stand over than however if the players don't want them then it hard to see a future for the current setup.

I am not a fan of players dictating who the management team are and who should or should not be in charge. While they should have a say, totally taking over the reins and giving them too much power is a recipe for disaster.

As for the papers blowing it up into a huge event on the front pages describing it a crisis is laughable.

Happy for McStay and co, whether it was a mistake or not that mayo didn’t take him is another story. By us offering him a position now or trying to get him at last minute would be disastrous. He needs to earn his salt with Roscommon at inter county level. I think it will do Connaught football the world of good if we get another team to the fore. Mayo will ultimately benefit more from stronger competition at provincial level particularly if the rossies step up a gear and galway come on a bit next year.

Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money and Rochford could do with another season at club intercounty level… If he can pull of the back to back with Corofin it will be a real test of his credentials. +1 on what another poster said about the Corofin team. They have a serious squad and could easily field three teams…they are the largest parish in County Galway.

The one manager I would love to see but he is probably too far away for it to work and has recently been appointed to the under 21 in Kerry is Jack O Connor. Will be interesting to see what develops over the next few days. All you would fear now is that Donie will pack his bags and high tail it out of here also.

TCDStudent1 · 29-09-2015 02:35PM

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I don't think we are too far apart in our point of views.
- They had wasn't it two county panellists. Lundy and Sice? This is from top of me head now. Burke was in there before but is hurling now only I understand. Lundy is okay at county level, Sice is a good player at county level.
- Kieran Fitzgerald getting on in years
Put that all together, yes they can win a club title, very suprising that they did it so comfortable. Winning the club title comfortable you would think they'd have what, maybe at least 5 county panellists with three starting?
How did they manage to win the club title so comfortably is the point I am getting at. Outstanding teamwork and preparation I believe is the answer. Of course yes the players are competitive, but by no means could you just rely on talent with the squad they had. Hence my point that Rochford added immensely to Corofins season by improving the teamwork and preparations of the squad.

Sice, Lundy, Liam Silke were starting for Galway this year.
They also had Ronan Steede, a sub for Galway throughout this year's championship.
Ian Burke was called into the Galway panel this year & then left (of his own accord).
Along with: Fitzgerald (AI winner), Kieran McGrath / Alan Burke have both been on Galway championship teams in the past few years. Michael Farragher has also started a championship match for Galway in the last couple of years. Greg Higgins is another who has played for Galway in recent years.
Further to that, they have a host of under-age county players (current & former). It is a serious pool of talent for any club to be working with.

In saying all that, Rochford still had to turn them into AI winners, and he did a great job of that. I know a fair few of those Corofin lads and know they rate him highly. But you should not under-estimate the talent he has available to him there, and I think you are doing just that!!

robbiezero · 29-09-2015 02:37PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Sice, Lundy, Liam Silke were starting for Galway this year.
They also had Ronan Steede, a sub for Galway throughout this year's championship.
Ian Burke was called into the Galway panel this year & then left (of his own accord).
Along with: Fitzgerald (AI winner), Kieran McGrath / Alan Burke have both been on Galway championship teams in the past few years. Michael Farragher has also started a championship match for Galway in the last couple of years. Greg Higgins is another who has played for Galway in recent years.
Further to that, they have a host of under-age county players (current & former). It is a serious pool of talent for any club to be working with.

In saying all that, Rochford still had to turn them into AI winners, and he did a great job of that. I know a fair few of those Corofin lads and know they rate him highly. But you should not under-estimate the talent he has available to him there, and I think you are doing just that!!

Good post. Didn't realise they had so many that were there or thereabouts at inter-county.

davegrohl48 · 29-09-2015 02:46PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Sice, Lundy, Liam Silke were starting for Galway this year.
They also had Ronan Steede, a sub for Galway throughout this year's championship.
Ian Burke was called into the Galway panel this year & then left (of his own accord).
Along with: Fitzgerald (AI winner), Kieran McGrath / Alan Burke have both been on Galway championship teams in the past few years. Michael Farragher has also started a championship match for Galway in the last couple of years. Greg Higgins is another who has played for Galway in recent years.
Further to that, they have a host of under-age county players (current & former). It is a serious pool of talent for any club to be working with.

In saying all that, Rochford still had to turn them into AI winners, and he did a great job of that. I know a fair few of those Corofin lads and know they rate him highly. But you should not under-estimate the talent he has available to him there, and I think you are doing just that!!

Okay you make a good few points that there is plenty inter county experience in there.

Shurimgreat · 29-09-2015 02:48PM

I think Holmes and Connelly were badly shown up in both Dublin games. They were simply naïve. A number of bizarre decisions - still don't understand why Barry Moran was taken off when he was dominating around the middle and Mayo were holding their own. Once he went off Dublin took over and scored quick goals to kill off the game. Also the unwillingness to challenge Cluxtons kickouts which allowed Dublin dictate both games on their terms. Leaving AOS at full forward when it was clear he was making no headway. And a refusal to take off some players who were to put it mildly awful. They showed no ruthlessness when it counted. I doubt McStay would have made any of these mistakes or any competent manager. When it really mattered Holmes/Connelly were found wanting. Better to change now than waste another 2 years with the same mediocre management.

Fr Tod Umptious · 29-09-2015 03:08PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think Holmes and Connelly were badly shown up in both Dublin games. They were simply naïve. A number of bizarre decisions - still don't understand why Barry Moran was taken off when he was dominating around the middle and Mayo were holding their own. Once he went off Dublin took over and scored quick goals to kill off the game. Also the unwillingness to challenge Cluxtons kickouts which allowed Dublin dictate both games on their terms. Leaving AOS at full forward when it was clear he was making no headway. And a refusal to take off some players who were to put it mildly awful. They showed no ruthlessness when it counted. I doubt McStay would have made any of these mistakes or any competent manager. When it really mattered Holmes/Connelly were found wanting. Better to change now than waste another 2 years with the same mediocre management.

Would McStay have made sure the Mayo forwards did not miss si many scoring chances in the second half of the drawn game ?

Would McStay have stopped SOS from getting a needless black card ?

As I have said through this saga, if players are going to revolt they sure as hell better come back stronger next year and prove to us all it was management and not them that was the problem.

blinding · 29-09-2015 03:29PM

Ascii wrote: »

I can’t understand how the management team that brought all Ireland success to Mayo in 2006 with probably 13 of these players can find themselves to be hated (by the same bunch of players more or less) after less than a year. I was never a fan of two managers but I felt on past merit they deserved a couple of years and I stand over than however if the players don't want them then it hard to see a future for the current setup.

I am not a fan of players dictating who the management team are and who should or should not be in charge. While they should have a say, totally taking over the reins and giving them too much power is a recipe for disaster.

As for the papers blowing it up into a huge event on the front pages describing it a crisis is laughable.

Happy for McStay and co, whether it was a mistake or not that mayo didn’t take him is another story. By us offering him a position now or trying to get him at last minute would be disastrous. He needs to earn his salt with Roscommon at inter county level. I think it will do Connaught football the world of good if we get another team to the fore. Mayo will ultimately benefit more from stronger competition at provincial level particularly if the rossies step up a gear and galway come on a bit next year.

Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money and Rochford could do with another season at club intercounty level… If he can pull of the back to back with Corofin it will be a real test of his credentials. +1 on what another poster said about the Corofin team. They have a serious squad and could easily field three teams…they are the largest parish in County Galway.

The one manager I would love to see but he is probably too far away for it to work and has recently been appointed to the under 21 in Kerry is Jack O Connor. Will be interesting to see what develops over the next few days. All you would fear now is that Donie will pack his bags and high tail it out of here also.

If Mayo could get Jack O'Connor I would be willing to carry him on my Shoulders all the way from Kerry. He would be as good as you could get.

Fr Tod Umptious · 29-09-2015 03:41PM

blinding wrote: »

If Mayo could get Jack O'Connor I would be willing to carry him on my Shoulders all the way from Kerry. He would be as good as you could get.

Problem is Javck does not take over teams that he does not think he can win an All Ireland with !

blinding · 29-09-2015 03:48PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Problem is Javck does not take over teams that he does not think he can win an All Ireland with !

Mayo were the 3rd best team this year possibly the 2nd (Certainly better than Kerry in the Final).That leaves managing Dublin;Unlikely and no vacancy.

With a possibly (?)good draw and with this team I think a manager that rated himself would be willing to give it a go. There may be loads of other reasons why Jacj O'Connor or others would not want the job.

blinding · 29-09-2015 03:59PM

bob skunkhouse wrote: »

Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money

I have it on good authority from a man in Glenties, the next managerial job for JMCG is Celtic's first team.

Is that Celtic competing for the All-Ireland.;)

I will believe it when I see it.

bob skunkhouse · 29-09-2015 04:03PM

Ascii wrote: »

Unsure about all this talk of Rochford and Mcguinness. Jim won’t leave sky and Celtic unless he gets crazy money

I have it on good authority from a man in Glenties, the next managerial job for JMCG is Celtic's first team.

martyos121 · 29-09-2015 04:07PM

Let's be real here; there is absolutely no chance our CB would even contemplate going after Jack O'Connor.

It will be either Horan (please God no) or a relatively unproven manager at inter-county level, like Rochford.

If we're going into the territory of selecting a big-time manager the calibre of the likes of Jack O'Connor, Jimmy is the one I'd choose all day long.

Utopia Parkway · 29-09-2015 04:09PM

martyos121 wrote: »

Let's be real here; there is absolutely no chance our CB would even contemplate going after Jack O'Connor.

I imagine O'Connor would have his eyes on the Kerry senior job again in a few years time. Do a stint with the U-21's and he will have coached most of those lads at minor and U-21 by the time they are breaking through at senior.

Shurimgreat · 29-09-2015 04:11PM

I'd actually like to see Donie Buckley given the job. From what I can see, he has been the real brains and key behind Mayo's success the last 5 years. He's turned them into a formidable team, tackling, turning over the ball and so on. He must get really frustrated to see mismanagement and poor decisions on the day of big games. He could be a good choice. The guy is clearly talented, far more so than other names thrown about.

Utopia Parkway · 29-09-2015 04:14PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I'd actually like to see Donie Buckley given the job. From what I can see, he has been the real brains and key behind Mayo's success the last 5 years. He's turned them into a formidable team, tackling, turning over the ball and so on. He must get really frustrated to see mismanagement and poor decisions on the day of big games. He could be a good choice. The guy is clearly talented, far more so than other names thrown about.

Talented and what he does undoubtedly but there is a difference between coaching and management. He might be good at one but not so good at the other.

ProudDUB · 29-09-2015 04:18PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Would McStay have made sure the Mayo forwards did not miss si many scoring chances in the second half of the drawn game ?

Would McStay have stopped SOS from getting a needless black card ?

As I have said through this saga, if players are going to revolt they sure as hell better come back stronger next year and prove to us all it was management and not them that was the problem.

+1

In their first year in charge, Holmes & Connolly took the eventual AI champions to a replay in the semifinal & the beat last years finalist. That is better than Eamon Fitzmaurice did in his first year in charge. When you look at all the AI medals that EF has, his players have, as well as the deep well of AI winning tradition, history and experience he had to draw on in Kerry, that is still good going, no?

Holmes & Connolly had none of that, yet they still did better than him, in their first year. I know that mistakes were made & the manner of their appointment was controversial, but it was still their first year. Does that not count for anything? What managers ever win the AI in their first year? Jim Gavin was the exception, not the rule.

jmayo · 29-09-2015 04:32PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Would McStay have made sure the Mayo forwards did not miss si many scoring chances in the second half of the drawn game ?

Would McStay have stopped SOS from getting a needless black card ?

As I have said through this saga, if players are going to revolt they sure as hell better come back stronger next year and prove to us all it was management and not them that was the problem.

No he couldn't have prevented any of those, but then again would he have left AOS stuck in at full forward surrounded by 3 dubs with useless aimless balls being pumped into him ?
Would he have played Donie Vaughan with a serious injury ?
Would he have left the team with no midfield ?
Would he have left some players on who were missing the shots ?

Would he have prepared a proper sweeper system and not some half hazard idea that was torn apart by the dubs in the first match ?

Would he have a plan to put pressure on all of cluxtons kick outs and not the odd few ?

The answer is we don't know, but those are some of the errors the two boys made that cost the game as much as the horrible misses or the black card.

Much like the year before where Horan couldn't come up with a plan to handle donaghy, even though Stevie Wonder could see something needed to be done.

I do agree that come what may the players will have to deliver next year now that they have raised the stakes.
You can't bitch and moan about management and then not deliver themselves.

Shurimgreat · 29-09-2015 04:46PM

ProudDUB wrote: »

+1

In their first year in charge, Holmes & Connolly took the eventual AI champions to a replay in the semifinal & the beat last years finalist. That is better than Eamon Fitzmaurice did in his first year in charge. When you look at all the AI medals that EF has, his players have, as well as the deep well of AI winning tradition, history and experience he had to draw on in Kerry, that is still good going, no?

Holmes & Connolly had none of that, yet they still did better than him, in their first year. I know that mistakes were made & the manner of their appointment was controversial, but it was still their first year. Does that not count for anything? What managers ever win the AI in their first year? Jim Gavin was the exception, not the rule.

But they showed they were clueless when it counted. The same old mistakes cropping up. Taking off performing players, and leaving on non performing players as an instance.

Jim McGuinness and Eamon Fitmaurice mightn't have won AIs in their first year or two (Mcguinness) but at least you could see a definite improvement. Both managers ultimately brought teams through to AI victories from a relatively low starting point.

I'm with the players on this one. If they don't think the management is good enough than clearly they have a point.

Fr Tod Umptious · 29-09-2015 04:58PM

The narrative about Mayo this year has been amazing.

One week Horan is the biggest goat in the land for not playing AOS at FF

The next week H+C are tactical genisus for developing a defensive system around Barry Moran.

The next week they are tactical idiots and AOS is not a full forward.

davegrohl48 · 29-09-2015 05:37PM

Yet to see the evidence Buckley is a top coach of attacking play unlike Rochford.

ColeTrain · 29-09-2015 05:47PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The narrative about Mayo this year has been amazing.

One week Horan is the biggest goat in the land for not playing AOS at FF

The next week H+C are tactical genisus for developing a defensive system around Barry Moran.

The next week they are tactical idiots and AOS is not a full forward.

That's just hyperbole Tod, who ever said H&C were tactical geniuses and that AOS isn't a full forward?

AOS at full forward was a success but you have to able to adapt and Holmes and Connolly clearly didn't when it was obvious early doors during the replay, that it wasn't going to work - never mind the fact it didn't work the first day out.

Just like James Horan, they made costly errors. Now, that's good and well but when the players vote they want someone else to lead them next season, coupled with the mistakes, alarm bells have to start ringing.

Let's just hope for once, that the County Board facilitate their wish and get the best possible candidate - not a half arsed appointment.

Stoner · 29-09-2015 05:57PM

To me, on the outside looking in. The lack of tactical changes adopted between the Dublin games this year would not have happened under Horan. He was slow on the line to spot a few things in the closing stages of 2013 in the heat of battle, but he'd have been all over those issues if he had a week imho.

jmayo · 29-09-2015 06:12PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The narrative about Mayo this year has been amazing.

One week Horan is the biggest goat in the land for not playing AOS at FF

The next week H+C are tactical genisus for developing a defensive system around Barry Moran.

The next week they are tactical idiots and AOS is not a full forward.

Barry Moran was perfect for the job he did with Murphy and the same would have probably worked with Donaghy.
The thing is Dublin have a different type of attack and it needed a different solution.
What may work against some teams will not work against others.

The key to winning nowadays is adaptability and a strong defensive system.
Also a good manager has the ability to change things around when the ubiquitous Plan A is no longer functioning.
Sadly for too long, with all our recent managers, we have either just had plan A or else thought we could outscore some very good teams paying no heed to shipping soft goals.

You need to be a very good team to impose your own way without minding what the opposition are doing.
Kerry have discovered that they needed to adapt and it worked last year.

Stoner wrote: »

To me, on the outside looking in. The lack of tactical changes adopted between the Dublin games this year would not have happened under Horan. He was slow on the line to spot a few things in the closing stages of 2013 in the heat of battle, but he'd have been all over those issues if he had a week imho.

Actually I think Horan made the same mistakes last year with regard Donaghy.
He didn't learn from the first match either.

davegrohl48 · 29-09-2015 06:16PM

Stoner wrote: »

To me, on the outside looking in. The lack of tactical changes adopted between the Dublin games this year would not have happened under Horan. He was slow on the line to spot a few things in the closing stages of 2013 in the heat of battle, but he'd have been all over those issues if he had a week imho.

He had a week for Kieran Donaghy in 2014 and failed that test. Similar James ODonoghue.

SeanJ09 · 29-09-2015 06:29PM

Jesus this is a mess. Massive pressure on the players to deliver next year if they manage to oust Connelly and Holmes. If they do, the choice for me, as a few other posters have indicated, is Jack O Connor. I think he could finally drag us over the line. I would be surprised if he was interested though, seems like a Kerryman through and through and would have no interest of involvement in Mayo Gaa rather than his native Kerry.

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

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