Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

seligehgit

TBH outside of McGuinness who presumably is a non runner I can't see who is going push the current squad as it's constituted over the line.

What's the story with Stephen Rochford the Corofin manager?

Fr Tod Umptious

seligehgit wrote: »

TBH outside of McGuinness who presumably is a non runner I can't see who is going push the current squad as it's constituted over the line.

What's the story with Stephen Rochford the Corofin manager?

Interesting how the headline says "management structure"

Would it be a case that they want rid of one but not the other ?

MaroonAndGreen

I hope we don't get a situation where the county board back the management as that could get messy....

Kristopherus

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Interesting how the headline says "management structure"

Would it be a case that they want rid of one but not the other ?

My thoughts as well. Being discussed on MW radio right now.

Cosmo Kramer

Well the rumour has long been that the issue is with Holmes.

naughto

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I hope we don't get a situation where the county board back the management as that could get messy....

It would not surprise me

davegrohl48

Once the management have lost the dressing room that is it they have to resign . But, the specifics of what the issues are have to be laid bare.
I was talking with someone from Corofin club two weeks ago. He said they will do well to hang on to Stephen Rochford, that he is destined for inter county management. Rochford is the obvious person to step in at this point.

km79

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Once the management have lost the dressing room that is it they have to resign . But, the specifics of what the issues are have to be laid bare.
I was talking with someone from Corofin club two weeks ago. He said they will do well to hang on to Stephen Rochford, that he is destined for inter county management. Rochford is the obvious person to step in at this point.

problem with that is we are back to square one
year one of a new manager
in my opinion this team has one big year left in them. next year. the draw is favourable. Roscommon galway getting stronger
it has to be next year
we dont have time for a new inexperienced intercounty manager coming in.......so who does that leave..... dare I say the players may want Horan back?

seligehgit

Yes I heard that the main issue was with Holmes, one of the most senior of players has not been on speaking terms with him all summer.

Quite sad in reality,Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes have been 2 great servants of the green and red down through the years.

jmayo

naughto wrote: »

Plenty of rumours going around.
Heard Higgins handed connelly a letter of no confidence in the two managers and mc Guinness name mentioned

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

I'm prepared to say that is 100% not true

I immediately thought of this thread when I heard the morning sports news.

martyos121 wrote: »

Horan had his chance, he did a good job, but I saw actuall progression under H&C (they got things wrong in the replay, but Dublin just went into another gear and the player were wrecked, it wasn't just their fault). Tired of seeing us take one step forward and two back. We'll win no All Ireland titles with Horan and his laissez-faire attitude towards defending.

Right about Horan, but lets not kid ourselves that H&C were a major improvement. They got a lot wrong in the drawn match.
They persisted with A O'Shea basically on his own up front.

Dublin should have gotten a few goals because they ripped open the Mayo defense.
There was a sweeper system in place which was a bloody joke.

At this stage they need an Ulster influence to really make a defensive setup that doesn't leak goals.

manofwisdom wrote: »

Unwanted messy situation for Mayo by the looks of it. Will be interesting to know why the Mayo players want a change after just one year? this joint management won U-21 All Ireland for a number of these current Mayo seniors. Donie Buckley is still there from team Horan and together they did what was required this year e.g staying up in div one and reaching another semi final, taking Dublin to replay was no mean feat.

Aim low achieve little.
This shyte about they did what was expected or what was required drives me nuts.
Settle for doing ok and that is what you will do.

They took over a team that had gotten to two finals already in past few years and were very unfortunate to lose to eventual champions the year before.
And a big part of that was down to poor management.
In fact they had the addition of a very good player and there were no major injuries to major players this year.

It looks like they never worked on a proper sweeper system all year and it was patently obvious they learned shag all from the drawn match unlike their opposite number.
That is why another year with them would probably be a wasted year.

seligehgit

km79 wrote: »

problem with that is we are back to square one
year one of a new manager
in my opinion this team has one big year left in them. next year. the draw is favourable. Roscommon galway getting stronger
it has to be next year
we dont have time for a new inexperienced intercounty manager coming in.......so who does that leave..... dare I say the players may want Horan back?

There's definitely speculation that the players want Horan back,heard as much at the weekend.

Peist2007

PressRun wrote: »

I think the boat was missed with Kevin McStay last year. If the Rossies haven't already sealed the deal, there may be time to rectify that mistake.

This way of thinking is incorrect in my opinion. McStay comes with Liam McHale and, if these players who are used to Buckley training them, suddenly had McHale training them, then there would be a player's meeting much earlier in the year than late September.

seligehgit

jmayo wrote: »

I immediately thought of this thread when I heard the morning sports news.



Right about Horan, but lets not kid ourselves that H&C were a major improvement. They got a lot wrong in the drawn match.
They persisted with A O'Shea basically on his own up front.

Dublin should have gotten a few goals because they ripped open the Mayo defense.
There was a sweeper system in place which was a bloody joke.

At this stage they need an Ulster influence to really make a defensive setup that doesn't leak goals.



Aim low achieve little.
This shyte about they did what was expected or what was required drives me nuts.
Settle for doing ok and that is what you will do.

They took over a team that had gotten to two finals already in past few years and were very unfortunate to lose to eventual champions the year before.
And a big part of that was down to poor management.
In fact they had the addition of a very good player and there were no major injuries to major players this year.

It looks like they never worked on a proper sweeper system all year and it was patently obvious they learned shag all from the drawn match unlike their opposite number.
That is why another year with them would probably be a wasted year.

Couldn't agree more but is James Horan likely to be the man to go down that road??

blinding

Just a Observation; We were blessed on the lack of injuries this year.

I don't think it works if the Players Pick the Manager either. How would the dynamics of that work.

The Players have to respect the Management though.

I suppose its better to Pick a management Team that the Players respect and continue to respect from the start.

I can't think of any circumstances where this sort of a Circus has a good outcome in the short to medium term.

We have a Great team now but The "Guidance" from the Top just is not Good Enough.

TCDStudent1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Once the management have lost the dressing room that is it they have to resign . But, the specifics of what the issues are have to be laid bare.
I was talking with someone from Corofin club two weeks ago. He said they will do well to hang on to Stephen Rochford, that he is destined for inter county management. Rochford is the obvious person to step in at this point.

It has been obvious for some time that Rochford will one day manage at inter-county level. However, I am not sure now is the right time for him. Corofin are in a county final which they probably will win. They may go on and win Connacht again too. If they do, then Rochford will be involved with Corofin into next year. Not exactly the ideal scenario to be preparing with Mayo. Interestingly, when the Mayo job came up before, many posters on here lamented that Connelly did not have senior inter-county experience. It would be the same with Rochford. In saying that, from what I hear
from the Corofin lads, he is a terrific manager.

I remember listening to an interview with a retired Irish soccer player a few years ago. I cant remember who it was, butI remember him saying that looking back on his career, it would have been bad if he had been able to pick who his manager was. It is a dangerous game to allow players decide on the management, particularly if it is led by a group of more vocal players (no idea if this is the case here, but I could see how this could happen).

It would be fascinating to learn the specific of the player's gripes. From watching Mayo play this year and comparing it to last year, I find it hard to say that Mayo were behind where they were last year. If they werent as good this year as last year, then it is only very marginal. The Dublin team that Mayo lost to this year are a better team than the Kerry team they lost to last year.

davegrohl48

Going back for Horan would not be the thing. His teams leaked goals just like the current team. He displayed way too much loyalty selecting players when Dublin have shown you need to pick players on form.
Some may dismiss Rochford as he has never managed at inter county level but here is the thing.
Of any high level team (All Ireland Club champions is a high level ) Stephen Rochfords training and tactics are the most spot on. He took a Corofin team without even a single inter county star (Michael Lundy is not a star player on the national stage) and won the club championship fairly comfortably. Beating sides like Ballintubber who had several top intercounty players.
Rochford had his squad practicing the match day tactics bringing it into match day, game tactics very similar to Dublins. From talking with a Corofin insider they said he is an absolute modern student of the game. He is most definitely a 2016 level of knowledge on how to win games.
- Defence was locked down they were hard to score goals on
- The counter attack within sometimes 2 kickpasses had the ball in the scoring zone
Is Horan superior to Rochford in terms of forming a season winning game plan, I don't think so. Horan never abandoned the attacking wing backs and never played a sweeper when he had the info on the need for that back in 2012 and 2013. He came in to 2014 with the same tactics, he has had his chance.
Stephen Rochford won't suddenly forget how to manage and coach a team because it is inter county level. If anything it will suit him even more as he can work with a higher standard of player to implement his game plan ... which is a very effective game plan looking at Dublin.

TCDStudent1

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Going back for Horan would not be the thing. His teams leaked goals just like the current team. He displayed way too much loyalty selecting players when Dublin have shown you need to pick players on form.
Rochford has never managed at inter county level but here is the thing.
Of any high level team (All Ireland Club champions is a high level ) Stephen Rochfords training and tactics are the most spot on. He took a Corofin team without even a single inter county star (Michael Lundy is not a star player on the national stage) and won the club championship fairly comfortably. Beating sides like Ballintubber who had several top intercounty players.
Rochford had his squad practicing the match day tactics bringing it into match day, game tactics very similar to Dublins. From talking with a Corofin insider they said he is an absolute modern student of the game. He is most definitely a 2016 level of knowledge on how to win games.
- Defence was locked down they were hard to score goals on
- The counter attack within sometimes 2 kickpasses had the ball in the scoring zone
Is Horan superior to Rochford in terms of forming a season winning game plan, I don't think so. Horan never abandoned the attacking wing backs and never played a sweeper when he had the info on the need for that back in 2012 and 2013. He came in to 2014 with the same tactics, he has had his chance.
Stephen Rochford won't suddenly forget how to manage and coach a team because it is inter county level. If anything it will suit him even more as he can work with a higher standard of player to implement his game plan ... which is a very effective game plan looking at Dublin.

Rochford is a wonderful manager. I have no doubt about that and I have seen Corofin up close many times to understand that. But you are downplaying the talent they have available. If Lundy (or Gary Sice) had been born in Mayo, then you could claim they are "inter-county stars", as they would've starred at a national level. However, there is no question that Rochford's management brought Corofin on a lot.

jmayo

seligehgit wrote: »

There's definitely speculation that the players want Horan back,heard as much at the weekend.

That would be a retrograde step and the players should not have the decision on who managers them.

As someone else said, and I think I heard the same interviewed soccer player talking about managers, there has to be a respect and fear between manager and players.

seligehgit wrote: »

Couldn't agree more but is James Horan likely to be the man to go down that road??

He blew the semi final last year as much as the ref screwed us.
He was incapable of putting in place a solution to deal with Donaghty.
He had made the same mistake years before when dealing with Murphy and it cost an All Ireland.

Why does Mayo persist in bringing back failed managers.
First it was Maughan, then O'Mahony (granted he had won two All Irelands with Galway in meantime) and now it's Horan.
Yes they have all gotten Mayo to finals, but they have also lost them.

And yes they have been great servants of Mayo football much like one can say Holmes and Connelly have been.
But Mayo don't need servants, they need leaders.

davegrohl48

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Rochford is a wonderful manager. I have no doubt about that and I have seen Corofin up close many times to understand that. But you are downplaying the talent they have available. If Lundy (or Gary Sice) had been born in Mayo, then you could claim they are "inter-county stars", as they would've starred at a national level. However, there is no question that Rochford's management brought Corofin on a lot.

A fair point on Gary Sice, I would consider him a quality player. If he was in the Mayo setup you are right he would have a bigger reputation.
The point still stands though, Corofin were not overblessed with panel depth to win the All Ireland club championship on a whole fairly comfortably.
It was their brilliant execution of their gameplan which was their biggest weapon I think is commonly accepted. Leading to my main point that Rochfords tactics and coaching improved his squad to a large degree.

ultrapercy

For me the decision to play Vaughan, who was obviously unfit to play, was enough to warrant a sacking. It was obvious to me when the injury happened that he was out for a while and the decision to play him was amazing. Everyone has their own opinion on selection and tactics but playing an injured man is unforgivable imo.

Coillte_Bhoy

Why is McGuinness continually being mentioned? Where are those rumours coming from? I cant see him leaving Celtic anytime soon

blinding

ultrapercy wrote: »

For me the decision to play Vaughan, who was obviously unfit to play, was enough to warrant a sacking. It was obvious to me when the injury happened that he was out for a while and the decision to play him was amazing. Everyone has their own opinion on selection and tactics but playing an injured man is unforgivable imo.

You could hardly sack a management team on one decision even though it was a shocker. Vaughan probably should have put his hand up(;) and said he was not fit.

You can't have people picking their Boss. That would be Mad Stuff:eek:

Where do we go from here. :eek:

Fr Tod Umptious

The idea of bringing back Horan now would be mad, a few years down the line sure but not now.

Not only do we need a manager with the tactical brain to deal with each opponent we also need players who will step up and use their own brains on the big day.

In the absence of anyone else this Rochford guy looks a decent shout, young (I assume), final winning experience, new ideas etc.

But as another poster implied this may be the last throw of the dice for some, and since the draw is favourable we cannot afford a year of starting from scratch.

By the way great news about McStay and Roscommon, the further McHale is from the Mayo setup the better.

MayoForSam

I saw Corofin hardly break a sweat on Sunday to win their county semi very easily in Tuam stadium, they got their goals at just the right time, very simple, straight through the middle for both of them. Their defense was very well organized and they freshened things up in the second half by bringing on 4 or 5 subs.

Rochford would an excellent contender for the Mayo job, but the timing could be better. I would prefer to see someone with some new ideas coming along rather than turning back the clock to the likes of Horan. There is one more opportunity next year for this present group of players, but the sideline decision making will need to be spot on.

davegrohl48

ultrapercy wrote: »

For me the decision to play Vaughan, who was obviously unfit to play, was enough to warrant a sacking. It was obvious to me when the injury happened that he was out for a while and the decision to play him was amazing. Everyone has their own opinion on selection and tactics but playing an injured man is unforgivable imo.

It was said he passed a fitness test. The extremely obvious test was to kick ten balls into the corner and have someone abrasive like Jason Doherty drive at Vaughan to see how his tackling was. From the very first ball against Paddy Andrews you could see he couldn't tackle. I'v popped both AC joints and you can take a shoulder on it after it settles down, in no way though are you comfortable tackling people, you may be able to do a tackling action but the joint will not stand up to the impact of the forward running at you or when they push away your tackle especially. When you have your arm raised tackling or catching a ball the joint is very vulnerable to even slight contact. Remember how minimal the contact was on Cillian versus Tyrone when he was catching that ball few years ago. We are not that short on squad depth that we should ever really be risking players with an AC joint injury. Especially such a common injury that is fairly well understood in terms of how it can re-occur and what it prevents you doing, namely tackling and contesting balls in the air.

robbiezero

martyos121 wrote: »

I just don't think the players know what the situation will be like if Holmes and Connelly are sent packing. They obviously have a major issue with them, and yeah they will get their way, but who replaces them? Who could actually bring us back to the All Ireland final in a year where the draw could be favourable to us? Horan had his chance, he did a good job, but I saw actuall progression under H&C (they got things wrong in the replay, but Dublin just went into another gear and the player were wrecked, it wasn't just their fault). Tired of seeing us take one step forward and two back. We'll win no All Ireland titles with Horan and his laissez-faire attitude towards defending.

Did they get things wrong in the drawn game also?
Just that the players threw caution to the wind in the last ten minutes and went back to their old style under Horan of running at pace from deep

ProudDUB

Surprised to see so much talk on here about Horan coming back. Has he said that he is willing to take the job on again?

Defiler Of The Coffin

ProudDUB wrote: »

Surprised to see so much talk on here about Horan coming back. Has he said that he is willing to take the job on again?

He hasn't. I can't see him going back so soon, not with young kids, senior position with Coke and his gig as a media pundit. Stranger things have happened, and I would certainly welcome him back at a later stage but it wouldn't be the right move for him or for Mayo at this point in time. Along with the talk about McGuinness it's wishful thinking for some.

MfMan

davegrohl48 wrote: »

A fair point on Gary Sice, I would consider him a quality player. If he was in the Mayo setup you are right he would have a bigger reputation.
The point still stands though, Corofin were not overblessed with panel depth to win the All Ireland club championship on a whole fairly comfortably.
It was their brilliant execution of their gameplan which was their biggest weapon I think is commonly accepted. Leading to my main point that Rochfords tactics and coaching improved his squad to a large degree.

Have to totally disagree. Rochford undoubtedly has great managerial merits but Corofin's team and panel last year was one of the strongest ever to emerge in a Galway club (and indeed in any club for many's a year). An almost perfect blend of youth, experience, pace, incision, scoring ability, defensive solidity etc. Had men of county or county-standard calibre in every line. Dismissed with almost nonchalant ease every side they met last year.

As for Mayo's current woes, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I don't think the mgmt. team that's there are good enough to win Sam, their tactical deficiencies were shown up at the top level, in fairness both days v Dublin. Equally though, the team's problems came to light also; Higgins and Boyle have gone back in a year, FB line was never fully settled or tight enough, even Galway showed that up. Forwards such as McLoughlin and Doherty don't hurt teams enough with scores. Even great warrior that he is, Aodan O'Se struggled with the pace in the later stages v Dublin and showed that his influence could be neutralised by proper planning.

Sadly, I really think Mayo's ship has sailed for the moment; last year was maybe the most one that got away. They came within a kick of a ball of beating Dublin in the drawn match in August but I do think Kerry this year, like Dublin, would have had too much striking power for them in a final. The mgmt. team may need to be changed, or modified, but long-term, without an influx of 3-4 'ready-to-go' players I don't think it will make any difference. Mayo will still be a top-5 team for the next few seasons at least but as they stand at present they simply aren't good enough to get across the line. All IMHO of course.

Shurimgreat

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Rochford has never managed at inter county level but here is the thing.

This is utterly irrelevant. Neither had Jim Gavin, Jim McGuinness, Eamon Fitzmaurice, Kevin Heffernan, Mick O'Dwyer, Sean Boylan, Billy Morgan, James Horan, Mickey Harte and virtually every successful manager in the history of the game.

Pat Holmes on the other hand had plenty of inter county management experience.

When I hear this "never managed at intercounty" line thrown out, it's very annoying. Its irrelevant. To win a club All-Ireland is extremely tough, up there in terms of achievement with an inter-county All-Ireland.