Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Fr Tod Umptious

For all that lament the fact that McStay was not selected last year or that he has now gone to Roscommon must remember that the players did not want that management team either as Martin Carney reminds us

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0929/731226-video-mayo-football-in-a-bad-way/

davegrohl48

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

For all that lament the fact that McStay was not selected last year or that he has now gone to Roscommon must remember that the players did not want that management team either as Martin Carney reminds us

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0929/731226-video-mayo-football-in-a-bad-way/

There was nothing confirmed about the players views on MacHale.

Green Peter

Maybe it's more about the players shifting the blame for failure to win an all Ireland from themselves, they are short the forwards to win an all Ireland and until they get them no manager will get them over the line!

Fr Tod Umptious

davegrohl48 wrote: »

There was nothing confirmed about the players views on MacHale.

That may be true but it was still party of the story this time last year.

I totally agree with them if they were against McHale by the way.

NabyLadistheman

Green Peter wrote: »

Maybe it's more about the players shifting the blame for failure to win an all Ireland from themselves, they are short the forwards to win an all Ireland and until they get them no manager will get them over the line!

Absolute nonsense. The current panel are without doubt the most hard-working and dedicated group of players we have ever had. Even with these issues all season the boat was never rocked and they seen it out til the end. There is a reason we don't know what the issues are. It is because the players have withheld it thus far, out of respect for Noel & Pat. Maybe the actions of the county board last night will ensure that the players 'hang their dirty linen' in public. If this group of players feel they deserve better and that the management is the issue then so be it. The course of action they have chosen would not have been taken easily.

davegrohl48

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Absolute nonsense. The current panel are without doubt the most hard-working and dedicated group of players we have ever had. Even with these issues all season the boat was never rocked and they seen it out til the end. There is a reason we don't know what the issues are. It is because the players have withheld it thus far, out of respect for Noel & Pat. Maybe the actions of the county board last night will ensure that the players 'hang their dirty linen' in public. If this group of players feel they deserve better and that the management is the issue then so be it. The course of action they have chosen would not have been taken easily.

They have to go public with the issues whatever they are. Currently there isn't enough in the public domain from Clerkins article that would warrant a vote of no confidence. If the prep for the Dublin game was a disaster come out and say it.

PressRun

seligehgit wrote: »

Morning Ireland reporting that the Noel Connelly and Pat Holmes are not going to step down,it is going to get very messy.:(

They should really step aside with some dignity rather than dragging it out like this, or the county board should nip it in the bud. Their position is completely untenable.

TCDStudent1

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

That may be true but it was still party of the story this time last year.

I totally agree with them if they were against McHale by the way.

Why would you be anti-mchale? I've never understood Mayo fans and mchale - loved by many and hated by many.

NabyLadistheman

Don't even start me on that tripe by Eugene McKee. "That is just one of the examples of how the players have cost Mayo"

Well let me tell you Eugene about the management duo who took over. The brief to all who observe Mayo football at close quarters over the last few seasons was clear. Tighten up the defense, whether with a defensive system or individual changes. The leakage of goals a fundamental issue. They came in, took what Horan had done and carried on. An absolute trashing by Dublin in the league where we went man-to-man in defense set alarm bells ringing. Lets fast-forward to the summer. Between the first Dublin semi & the replay Mayo abandoned what had actually got them into a winning positon the first day, playing with a sweeper. They went man-to-man in defense and as we all know the end result of such action against Dublin. We were bet by seven or eight. Throw in some very questionable substitutions and you can see why many (not just the players) had reservations. Those are the facts Eugene.

How people can comment on the players actions when nobody knows what their issues are is beyond me. These fellas sacrifice everything for Mayo football. If they think the current management don't have the tactical nous (just an example) to get us across the line then I am with them 100%

PressRun

seligehgit wrote: »

Pressure is piled on the players,at the end of the day... Management can't put the ball over the bar.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/mayo-players-have-no-right-to-blame-others-for-their-own-failures-31569564.html

That's an awful article. Really hate this attitude within the GAA that players should just shut up and get on with it. They really hate it when players say or do anything that directly challenges power structures. As far as certain GAA people are concerned, players are to be seen and not heard, and should know their place. The same ****e was flung at the Cork hurlers.

robbiezero

PressRun wrote: »

That's an awful article. Really hate this attitude within the GAA that players should just shut up and get on with it. They really hate it when players say or do anything that directly challenges power structures. As far as certain GAA people are concerned, players are to be seen and not heard, and should know their place. The same ****e was flung at the Cork hurlers.

A steaming pile of nonsense. This idea that if Lee Keegan had scored that point that all would have been different is pure rubbish and unfair on one of Mayo's best players all year.
A complete and total collapse in the last 15 minutes was the reason Mayo lost that game not any one shot on goal.

ColeTrain

A ****e article from McGee alright, but it's not the first and won't be the last.

Fr Tod Umptious

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Why would you be anti-mchale? I've never understood Mayo fans and mchale - loved by many and hated by many.

Loved him as a player, grew up watching him in his heyday.

But I think he is not the kind of person that Mayo need as a coach.

I have always felt that he would not bring the same professionalism to the role that has become expected since Horan took over.

PressRun

I want to know what C&H are up to here. If a vote of no confidence was delivered to them, they should have resigned then and there. If they've lost the dressing room, it's over. I don't know why they're intent on turning this into a drama.

Green_Tae

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Don't even start me on that tripe by Eugene McKee. "That is just one of the examples of how the players have cost Mayo"

Well let me tell you Eugene about the management duo who took over. The brief to all who observe Mayo football at close quarters over the last few seasons was clear. Tighten up the defense, whether with a defensive system or individual changes. The leakage of goals a fundamental issue. They came in, took what Horan had done and carried on. An absolute trashing by Dublin in the league where we went man-to-man in defense set alarm bells ringing. Lets fast-forward to the summer. Between the first Dublin semi & the replay Mayo abandoned what had actually got them into a winning positon the first day, playing with a sweeper. They went man-to-man in defense and as we all know the end result of such action against Dublin. We were bet by seven or eight. Throw in some very questionable substitutions and you can see why many (not just the players) had reservations. Those are the facts Eugene.

How people can comment on the players actions when nobody knows what their issues are is beyond me. These fellas sacrifice everything for Mayo football. If they think the current management don't have the tactical nous (just an example) to get us across the line then I am with them 100%

Well said.

Outsiders looking in may be a little shocked by developments considering Mayo ran the eventual champions closer than any team this year but C&H had big shoes to fill and the legacy of the Horan era would have set very high standards in the minds of players, particularly when it came to team preparation. That could be an issue.

Still, 27 votes to 7 is a decisive majority in any body and that at least has to be respected. It suggests that players are near unanimous in their feelings and there is no 'rebel' element stirring up trouble.

paintitwhite

The Star are also reporting that Lee Keegan is in support of the current regime.

Just wondering why someone thought Liam McHale would lack the professionalism required? He's been involved with Clare, St.Brigids and Cavan this decade and was heavily linked with Westmeath too which never materialised and will be with Roscommon soon. I would have thought such a broad CV would be impressive.

seanhynes

paintitwhite wrote: »

The Star are also reporting that Lee Keegan is in support of the current regime.

Just wondering why someone thought Liam McHale would lack the professionalism required? He's been involved with Clare, St.Brigids and Cavan this decade and was heavily linked with Westmeath too which never materialised and will be with Roscommon soon. I would have thought such a broad CV would be impressive.

not to forget Castleconnor GAA in Sligo

BPKS

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Don't even start me on that tripe by Eugene McKee. "That is just one of the examples of how the players have cost Mayo"

Well let me tell you Eugene about the management duo who took over. The brief to all who observe Mayo football at close quarters over the last few seasons was clear. Tighten up the defense, whether with a defensive system or individual changes. The leakage of goals a fundamental issue. They came in, took what Horan had done and carried on. An absolute trashing by Dublin in the league where we went man-to-man in defense set alarm bells ringing. Lets fast-forward to the summer. Between the first Dublin semi & the replay Mayo abandoned what had actually got them into a winning positon the first day, playing with a sweeper. They went man-to-man in defense and as we all know the end result of such action against Dublin. We were bet by seven or eight. Throw in some very questionable substitutions and you can see why many (not just the players) had reservations. Those are the facts Eugene.

How people can comment on the players actions when nobody knows what their issues are is beyond me. These fellas sacrifice everything for Mayo football. If they think the current management don't have the tactical nous (just an example) to get us across the line then I am with them 100%

An outsiders view here. Of the part in bold. And I'm not on a wind up.

Dublin were what, 6 or 7 points up, going into the last quarter of the drawn game. Mayo abandoned the sweeper, pushed up on Dublin and won the final quarter by 6 or 7 points.

Mayo played without a sweeper in the replay and found themselves in a position where there were 4 points up with 20 odd minutes to go. This is where hindsight is 20/20 vision. Go ultra defensive at that stage and win the game and they are geniuses. They stuck with the plan and 2 minutes of "brain-farts" by a couple of players later, 2 goals were stuck in the net and it was game over. If Mayo had played a sweeper in the replay and lost, people would be saying they abandoned what got them from 7 points down to force the replay and laying the blame at the hands of the management.

Last year in the drawn semi final Mayo were 5 points up with 7 minutes to go in the drawn game and 3 points up in extra time of the replay. They didn't make it through. Holmes and Connelly weren't in charge then.

BENDYBINN

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Don't even start me on that tripe by Eugene McKee. "That is just one of the examples of how the players have cost Mayo"

Well let me tell you Eugene about the management duo who took over. The brief to all who observe Mayo football at close quarters over the last few seasons was clear. Tighten up the defense, whether with a defensive system or individual changes. The leakage of goals a fundamental issue. They came in, took what Horan had done and carried on. An absolute trashing by Dublin in the league where we went man-to-man in defense set alarm bells ringing. Lets fast-forward to the summer. Between the first Dublin semi & the replay Mayo abandoned what had actually got them into a winning positon the first day, playing with a sweeper. They went man-to-man in defense and as we all know the end result of such action against Dublin. We were bet by seven or eight. Throw in some very questionable substitutions and you can see why many (not just the players) had reservations. Those are the facts Eugene.

How people can comment on the players actions when nobody knows what their issues are is beyond me. These fellas sacrifice everything for Mayo football. If they think the current management don't have the tactical nous (just an example) to get us across the line then I am with them 100%

If the system was so wrong how come we were 4 points up with 15 mins to go against the dubs?

PressRun

BPKS wrote: »

An outsiders view here. Of the part in bold. And I'm not on a wind up.

Dublin were what, 6 or 7 points up, going into the last quarter of the drawn game. Mayo abandoned the sweeper, pushed up on Dublin and won the final quarter by 6 or 7 points.

Mayo played without a sweeper in the replay and found themselves in a position where there were 4 points up with 20 odd minutes to go. This is where hindsight is 20/20 vision. Go ultra defensive at that stage and win the game and they are geniuses. They stuck with the plan and 2 minutes of "brain-farts" by a couple of players later, 2 goals were stuck in the net and it was game over. If Mayo had played a sweeper in the replay and lost, people would be saying they abandoned what got them from 7 points down to force the replay and laying the blame at the hands of the management.

Last year in the drawn semi final Mayo were 5 points up with 7 minutes to go in the drawn game and 3 points up in extra time of the replay. They didn't make it through. Holmes and Connelly weren't in charge then.

People keep mentioning the Dublin game as if that's what's the crux of the matter here. The semi-final may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but these problems were brewing long before the semi-final, by all accounts. My bet is that there are some standards of professionalism that are not being met.

davegrohl48

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Loved him as a player, grew up watching him in his heyday.

But I think he is not the kind of person that Mayo need as a coach.

I have always felt that he would not bring the same professionalism to the role that has become expected since Horan took over.

I'v never understood the anti MacHale thing. He has a good knowledge of club football in Mayo and a good knowledge of modern tactics. Being from a basketball background the philosophy of training and preparation in basketball is superior to the traditional training methods of most GAA people. Basketball is all about skill development through repetition of perfect technique practice. Absolutely what modern teams need. Then you have defensive side of it with man to man and zonal and all this stuff that is way above my knowledge but Dublin used it this year.
By contrast there are several older Mayo players who did much less when playing at club/county and at management level who are still seen as being legends of the game. Always this negative attitude to Liam MacHale. He might go on a bit about 1996, at the same time that is usually foisted upon him by some tv/radio or newspaper interview.
Liam MacHale was weight training from 1985 onwards he was not actually blessed with natural bulk and strength in his early days, he developed it through dedicated hard work. Just an idea of how he's not just some naturally talented athlete who had it come easy so now he doesn't understand how to contribute on management side to the modern game. Liam could even name his first intro to that side of things by Liam ONeill.

Fr Tod Umptious

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I'v never understood the anti MacHale thing. He has a good knowledge of club football in Mayo and a good knowledge of modern tactics. Being from a basketball background the philosophy of training and preparation in basketball is superior to the traditional training methods of most GAA people. Basketball is all about skill development through repetition of perfect technique practice. Absolutely what modern teams need. Then you have defensive side of it with man to man and zonal and all this stuff that is way above my knowledge but Dublin used it this year.
By contrast there are several older Mayo players who did much less when playing at club/county and at management level who are still seen as being legends of the game. Always this negative attitude to Liam MacHale. He might go on a bit about 1996, at the same time that is usually foisted upon him by some tv/radio or newspaper interview.
Liam MacHale was weight training from 1985 onwards he was not actually blessed with natural bulk and strength in his early days, he developed it through dedicated hard work. Just an idea of how he's not just some naturally talented athlete who had it come easy so now he doesn't understand how to contribute on management side to the modern game. Liam could even name his first intro to that side of things by Liam ONeill.

Valid points all of them

But for some reason I see him as a bit of a spoofer.

I remember him on Newstalk back in '06 taking that team and management to task after the AI loss, when he himself was part of an equally poor AI loss in '04.

We will see how they get on in Roscommon

BPKS

PressRun wrote: »

People keep mentioning the Dublin game as if that's what's the crux of the matter here. The semi-final may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but these problems were brewing long before the semi-final, by all accounts. My bet is that there are some standards of professionalism that are not being met.

That's fair enough. But surely "standards of professionalism" is something that could be addressed with a management team and improved upon if agreed. Again as an outside it looks Us vs Them (Team vs Management). The players appear to be still pining for James Horan and again that is understandable. But the pressure they have now put themselves under to win the All Ireland in 2016 has been ramped up big time, no matter who is in charge.

To quote Renton from Trainspotting "Its a sh1te state of affairs Tommy".

PressRun

BPKS wrote: »

That's fair enough. But surely "standards of professionalism" is something that could be addressed with a management team and improved upon if agreed. Again as an outside it looks Us vs Them (Team vs Management). The players appear to be still pining for James Horan and again that is understandable. But the pressure they have now put themselves under to win the All Ireland in 2016 has been ramped up big time, no matter who is in charge.

To quote Renton from Trainspotting "Its a sh1te state of affairs Tommy".

Standards of professionalism were thrown out the window with the manner in which C&H were appointed in the first place. The Co Board made a mess of it from the get-go.

jmayo

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Why would you not include horan as a real candidate? 6/4 on paddypower!

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Too soon.

He has ridiculed here not that long ago for his tactical ineptitude, what would have changed in a year.

In the future yes, but not now

He was tactically inept.
Donaghy came on in the drawn match and changed the game.
It was obvious that something would have be done to mark him, but Horan persisted with tried, tested and failed method in the replay.
He has also lost the final against Donegal in the first few minutes because he had no plan to cope with Murphy.

He has his chances and failed.

davegrohl48 wrote: »

Lee Keegan states in Connaught Telegraph he did not attend meeting and supported mgmt team. One of 7 players who did. I thought a secret ballot... was meant to be secret.

the last thing we need is players going off on solo runs breaking ranks.
It will lead to a very divided dressing room in future.

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

I have never been part of an inter-county set up unfortunately so I find it hard to answer your question. I remember reading an article about Jim Gavin where it was saying that he plays the part of a delegator more than anything. He surrounds himself with experts in different areas, gives them scope to do their thing and then he picks the team. I think Horan was known to have a similar approach.

Gavin has one of the best support networks ever put together in GAA.
There is probably nearly as much spent on the Dublin senior football team as counties like Mayo have to spend on all their teams.

Royal Legend wrote: »

IMO you had the right man in Horan, and it looks like the players know that as well, very very unlucky to lose to Kerry last year in two of the best games of football i have ever witnessed, things just went against you last year, for example your two most prominent forwards clashing heads in the replay, had a huge bearing on the result, plus a couple of dodgy decisions near the end of the game going to Kerry
The standard was set high by Horan, obviously the players felt the standard this season was not good enough. I think if Horan had stayed on he may have got youse over the line this year

Horan has his chances in two finals and one semi plus draw.
Yes we were unlucky last year with the incidents you mention, but he also failed to cope with donaghy. That was a game changer in itself.
There is an old saying about making your own luck.

BPKS wrote: »

An outsiders view here. Of the part in bold. And I'm not on a wind up.

Dublin were what, 6 or 7 points up, going into the last quarter of the drawn game. Mayo abandoned the sweeper, pushed up on Dublin and won the final quarter by 6 or 7 points.

Mayo played without a sweeper in the replay and found themselves in a position where there were 4 points up with 20 odd minutes to go. This is where hindsight is 20/20 vision. Go ultra defensive at that stage and win the game and they are geniuses. They stuck with the plan and 2 minutes of "brain-farts" by a couple of players later, 2 goals were stuck in the net and it was game over. If Mayo had played a sweeper in the replay and lost, people would be saying they abandoned what got them from 7 points down to force the replay and laying the blame at the hands of the management.

Last year in the drawn semi final Mayo were 5 points up with 7 minutes to go in the drawn game and 3 points up in extra time of the replay. They didn't make it through. Holmes and Connelly weren't in charge then.

Horan screwed up not having a plan to deal with Donaghy who changed the match when he came on.
Even worse a week later there was still no plan.

Likewise against Dublin H&C ended up with a team with no midfield.
Notice how dominant Dublin became after Parsons, Moran and S. O'Shea had departed.
The players do have questions to answer, but so does the management - current and previous.

BTW did anyone hear Maughan on radio last night.
They might as well have brought on Holmes' or Connelly's mammies.

I couldn't believe the interviewer asked Mortimer if he felt Horan should return.

How the hell does H&C think they can manage a team where almost 80% of the players in the dressing room don't want them ?

seligehgit

Spot on jmayo.

padd b1975

As far as I know, the panel are due to meet informally in early October to get their individual programs for the winter break.

That sounds like a fun night out for all the family....

H&C really have no other sensible option at this stage other than walk away with what little dignity they have left.

The last thing thats needed is to be starting 2016 campaign playing catch up on everyone else.

This is a panel of players with serious miles clocked up, effectively they've played the same amount of football as the championship winners every year since 2012.

I don't think any of us here can possibly fathom the levels of expertise that needs to go in to getting these guys back to the well for another year.

Cramming preparation after sitting on their hands for god knows how long is not the way to go!

PressRun

Yep, I agree. This needs to be sorted very quickly to give the players the best chance possible to regroup and get settled into a new routine with new management. Any thoughts how/if this story was leaked before the players wanted it to be? Seems likely that they intended for this to be brought up on Thursday, away from the media, and then a statement or something would be released quietly stating that there would be a change of management. It doesn't really seem like the kind of media circus that some of these lads would be ordinarily interested in courting.

davegrohl48

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Valid points all of them

But for some reason I see him as a bit of a spoofer.

I remember him on Newstalk back in '06 taking that team and management to task after the AI loss, when he himself was part of an equally poor AI loss in '04.

We will see how they get on in Roscommon

Yes I remember that time with his comments on the 06 loss. Yes I thought at the time it was no place to comment after what happened in '04 being very similar. It is 9 years ago, he has expanded his knowledge since then I would say.

padd b1975

PressRun wrote: »

Yep, I agree. This needs to be sorted very quickly to give the players the best chance possible to regroup and get settled into a new routine with new management. Any thoughts how/if this story was leaked before the players wanted it to be? Seems likely that they intended for this to be brought up on Thursday, away from the media, and then a statement or something would be released quietly stating that there would be a change of management. It doesn't really seem like the kind of media circus that some of these lads would be ordinarily interested in courting.

The rumours have been doing the rounds on this very thread for a couple of weeks now.

There was no way something like this was ever going to be kept under the radar.
It would be naive for anyone to think otherwise.
As for where the leaks came from.... as far as I'm concerned it could have come from any of the three parties involved, although realistically, you would have to think it came from the players.