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S05 Ep10 - "Mother's Mercy" - HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS

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    #482
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭bren2001


    Mal-Adjusted wrote: »
    Having seen it a few days after everyone else, a few things struck me as off.
    Staniss has been described as the greatest military leader in Westeros. We saw his army as huge enough to instantly subdue the wildlings. How could he be so stupid to lose over half his force in such a relatively short time? Then when he knew his force was so depleted, why keep going towards a hopeless siege? Why were the Boltons even worried about him when they had a massive army themselves? Why even go for the Boltons? Why not get on his ships and head straight for Kings landing?

    He lost his army overnight because he burned his daughter alive. The sell swords, who have no loyalty apart to coin, left him in the middle of the night. If he was willing to burn his own daughter, what would he do to them when time dictates?

    He continued his march towards Winterfell because he was convinced the Lord of Light was on his side. It was his destiny. This blinded him from common sense. He sent Davos away for this reason (and because he was killing his daughter).

    The Boltons only gained such a large army when Stannis's was reduced. It is a fair assumption to make, that the sell swords went to Winterfell and joined the Boltons. Hence why the Boltons were worried prior to this.

    Why not head to Kings Landing? Well shipping down that many people is difficult and he tried that before but KL had Dragon Fire and absolutely destroyed him. If he could unite the North behind him his army would have been massive. Similar to Robb. He had no real choice other than take Winterfell and rally the North.


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    #483
    RichFTW
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭RichFTW


    DarkoT wrote: »
    Yes, and I think she will swing her sword into the tree, to scare him...

    At first I thought she killed him but now I think she kept him alive so that he can admit he killed Renly and so clear her name. It's a bit unbelievable that they wouldn't show the death considering most people wanted to see him die after burning his daughter and the show has always shown deaths in a gruesome fashion.


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    #484
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    wp_rathead wrote: »
    Have a feeling Sam gonna be a big part in the overall storyline
    GRRM seems like the idea of seemingly "weak" characters having a big say like Bran or Tyrion, while prototype heroes having **** time like Obreyn, Rob Stark, Jamie Lannister etc.

    I do hope Sam either grows a pair or something happens Gilly as they rather tedious at the moment I'll agree
    sam is a fat nerd, i.e. a self-insert by GRRM, so obviously he gets the girl, kills a white walker and later probably saves the world.


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    #485
    dark crystal
    Registered Users Posts: 10,962 ✭✭✭✭dark crystal


    I don't understand the speculation about Stannis being alive. Brienne abandoned Sansa watch to kill him and it had been her mission to do so for a long time.

    We don't have to see a character die on screen to know they're dead; e.g, The Hound.

    I just can't see any logical reason why Brienne, being the faithful and single minded Knight she is, would have spared him.


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    #486
    T-K-O
    Registered Users Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭T-K-O


    dark crystal wrote: »
    I don't understand the speculation about Stannis being alive. Brienne abandoned Sansa watch to kill him and it had been her mission to do so for a long time.

    We don't have to see a character die on screen to know they're dead; e.g, The Hound.

    I just can't see any logical reason why Brienne, being the faithful and single minded Knight she is, would have spared him.

    The hound was a complelty different situation, he was left to die. I would imagine it was Purposely shot that way to develop aryas character


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    #487
    DarkoT
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭DarkoT


    How do you know that The Hound is dead?


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    #488
    T-K-O
    Registered Users Posts: 6,309 ✭✭✭T-K-O


    DarkoT wrote: »
    How do you know that The Hound is dead?

    Spoiler alert. He was dead all along.


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    #489
    catallus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭catallus


    T-K-O wrote: »
    Spoiler alert. He was dead all along.

    :eek:

    mind blown :pac:


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    #490
    J. Marston
    Registered Users Posts: 23,136 ✭✭✭✭J. Marston


    We didn't see Xaro Xhoan Daxos die either. Maybe he escaped the vault and is the person behind the Sons of the Harpy.

    Dun dun duuuuun....


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    #491
    DarkoT
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭DarkoT


    T-K-O wrote: »
    Spoiler alert. He was dead all along.

    Naaah I still think he's alive... :)


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    #492
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    RichFTW wrote: »
    At first I thought she killed him but now I think she kept him alive so that he can admit he killed Renly and so clear her name. It's a bit unbelievable that they wouldn't show the death considering most people wanted to see him die after burning his daughter and the show has always shown deaths in a gruesome fashion.

    Brienne isn't really interested in clearing her name. It's already widely accepted that she didn't kill Renly. How else would she be allowed to attend Joffrey's wedding? There is no one out to avenge Renly apart from herself and Loras and Loras clearly doesn't hold her responsible since she was welcome at his sister's wedding.

    Stannis is clearly dead, I'm afraid.


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    #493
    ben.schlomo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭ben.schlomo


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    If I need to have read the book to know what's happening then the writers of the TV show have, by definition, failed in their job.

    Ya but you dont have to read the book, i think some people just think about things way too much, its not that hard to interpret whats happening in the show. If youre going to over-think every detail then the show would need to be three or four hours long every week.


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    #494
    RichFTW
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭RichFTW


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Brienne isn't really interested in clearing her name. It's already widely accepted that she didn't kill Renly. How else would she be allowed to attend Joffrey's wedding? There is no one out to avenge Renly apart from herself and Loras and Loras clearly doesn't hold her responsible since she was welcome at his sister's wedding.

    Stannis is clearly dead, I'm afraid.

    Good point, forgot she was at the wedding. Still think it's a bit strange that they didn't show the actual death. Just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't show it unless something else was going on.


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    #495
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    RichFTW wrote: »
    Good point, forgot she was at the wedding. Still think it's a bit strange that they didn't show the actual death. Just doesn't make sense that they wouldn't show it unless something else was going on.

    Storywise, there is no reason to keep Stannis on. His race is run. Why devote screen time to him sulking at the wall or being dragged (to where, exactly?) by Brienne around the countryside when so much else needs to be covered next season?

    Characterwise, there is no way Brienne would spare him. She vowed to kill him and takes her vows seriously. Stannis is probably the least likely person in the entire story to talk his way out of that situation. He was the polar opposite to Tyrion in many ways.


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    #496
    Al Capwned
    Registered Users Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭Al Capwned


    Has it been announced, officially or unofficially, how many seasons the writes envisage?

    Did I read something lately that one of them said?


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    #497
    DarkoT
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭DarkoT


    Brienne will swing her sword into the tree, that's my opinion. She is not over with Stannis


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    #498
    RichFTW
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭RichFTW


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Storywise, there is no reason to keep Stannis on. His race is run. Why devote screen time to him sulking at the wall or being dragged (to where, exactly?) by Brienne around the countryside when so much else needs to be covered next season?

    Characterwise, there is no way Brienne would spare him. She vowed to kill him and takes her vows seriously. Stannis is probably the least likely person in the entire story to talk his way out of that situation. He was the polar opposite to Tyrion in many ways.

    TV wise, there is no reason to kill him off screen. He is too important a character and too hated a villain after his daughters death to waste his death by not showing it. The Hound being left to die worked as it showed what Arya was now capable of doing, i.e. leaving a man to die in pain. The same ambiguous death doesn't work for Stanis as it accomplishes nothing.

    The only thing I can think of is that she wants him to stand trial and then be sentenced to death.

    Edit: Possibly stand trial and be sent to the wall as part of the nights watch instead of being killed? Would then solve the problem of not having a main character at the wall. Free up Jon (who I also think will be back) to do something else in the story?


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    #499
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    I have a feeling Jon Snow will be resurrected and- this is a stab in the dark- that the reason why Stannis failed is because when he sacrified his daughter the magic didn't work or something - which means he is not rightful King and his bloodline wasnt rightful ; all of which leaves Jon Snow's blood to satisfy the witches lust for power. The witch might have been shocked to discover the sacrifice of the blood of daughter of Stannis to have been rejected by whatever evil she worships . I'm struggling to remember last season now. I cant remember if Gendry Baratheon lives or not. If they kill off everyone then they need to develop some of the less known characters more so we feel we know them.


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    #500
    iamanengine
    Registered Users Posts: 3,891 ✭✭✭iamanengine


    masculinist wrote: »
    I have a feeling Jon Snow will be resurrected and- this is a stab in the dark- that the reason why Stannis failed is because when he sacrified his daughter the magic didn't work or something - which means he is not rightful King and his bloodline wasnt rightful ; all of which leaves Jon Snow's blood to satisfy the witches lust for power. The witch might have been shocked to discover the sacrifice of the blood of daughter of Stannis to have been rejected by whatever evil she worships . I'm struggling to remember last season now. I cant remember if Gendry Baratheon lives or not. If they kill off everyone then they need to develop some of the less known characters more so we feel we know them.

    But technically it did work because the snow melted, or at least that was what I gathered.


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    #501
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    RichFTW wrote: »
    TV wise, there is no reason to kill him off screen. He is too important a character and too hated a villain after his daughters death to waste his death by not showing it. The Hound being left to die worked as it showed what Arya was now capable of doing, i.e. leaving a man to die in pain. The same ambiguous death doesn't work for Stanis as it accomplishes nothing.

    The only thing I can think of is that she wants him to stand trial and then be sentenced to death.

    Edit: Possibly stand trial and be sent to the wall as part of the nights watch instead of being killed? Would then solve the problem of not having a main character at the wall. Free up Jon (who I also think will be back) to do something else in the story?

    Brienne sentenced him to death herself, as was her right as the representative of (in her view) the rightful King.

    A man cannot be "sentenced" to serve with the Night's Watch. It requires an oath. An oath that would mean for Stannis forsaking his claim to the throne. A claim he has struggled for years against daunting odds, fought personally in three massive battles and murdered his brother and daughter for. A person of this insane determination will hardly forsake what he sees as his solemn duty because someone swung a sword near his head and scolded him. Swearing a false oath is equally unlikely for a man like Stannis.

    Stannises death accomplishes plenty as it concludes his part of the tale and frees up a ton of time for the various other unconcluded threads.


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    #502
    RichFTW
    Registered Users Posts: 552 ✭✭✭RichFTW


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Brienne sentenced him to death herself, as was her right as the representative of (in her view) the rightful King.

    She did but maybe she changed her mind once he said 'do your duty'. Maybe she realised her duty was to bring him to justice in public rather than act as judge and jury.
    DeadHand wrote: »
    A man cannot be "sentenced" to serve with the Night's Watch. It requires an oath. An oath that would mean for Stannis forsaking his claim to the throne. A claim he has struggled for years against daunting odds, fought personally in three massive battles and murdered his brother and daughter for. A person of this insane determination will hardly forsake what he sees as his solemn duty because someone swung a sword near his head and scolded him. Swearing a false oath is equally unlikely for a man like Stannis.

    Of course they can be sentenced to the nights watch. That's why it's full of thieves and rapists, Jon Snow was the exception in that he chose to join. The majority are giving the choice to join the nights watch or die/rot in prison.

    Anyway we won't find out until next year who is right!


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    #503
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    RichFTW wrote: »
    She did but maybe she changed her mind once he said 'do your duty'. Maybe she realised her duty was to bring him to justice in public rather than act as judge and jury.

    this is a good point, if there's one thing about Brienne, it's her tedious and humourless devotion to "duty" (she's very similar to Stannis in this aspect). It seems out of character for her to kill a wounded defenceless soldier.
    On the other hand, Stannis' game is over, and he doesn't really serve any further purpose in the plot.


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    #504
    Knex*
    Registered Users Posts: 22,477 ✭✭✭✭Knex*


    I'll be rightly pissed if Stannis is still alive next season, tbh.


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    #505
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    loyatemu wrote: »
    On the other hand, Stannis' game is over, and he doesn't really serve any further purpose in the plot.
    A similar thing could be said about Jon Snow! His game is currently at least as over as we've seen him dead!
    This last episode just had too many quite artificial looking what happened there? type moments. Surprises are OK to build up interest in the next season, but these types of cliffhangers which just seem to be regular scenes cut off abruptly so we can't see the outcome aren't really that great for the entertainment value IMO.


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    #506
    SoupyNorman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,257 ✭✭✭SoupyNorman


    loyatemu wrote: »
    this is a good point, if there's one thing about Brienne, it's her tedious and humourless devotion to "duty" (she's very similar to Stannis in this aspect). It seems out of character for her to kill a wounded defenceless soldier.
    On the other hand, Stannis' game is over, and he doesn't really serve any further purpose in the plot.
    Knex. wrote: »
    I'll be rightly pissed if Stannis is still alive next season, tbh.

    The Season ended on few cliffhanger deaths, Stannis, Jon ,Marsella and maybe Theon and Sansa (remote likelihood there).

    This has all served to fuel these vigorous debates (which was of course intended). I was originally thinking we did not see Stannis die therefore, did he ded? But know I’d say season 6 will pick up from where they left on these scenes and show the outcomes.

    I am predicting:

    Stannis is dead (there is no earthly reason for his existence anymore)

    Marsella lives (I think Bronn has the antidote)

    Theon tries it on with Sansa but then realizes he’s only got the stones and no pillar.

    Jon is on a season break.


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    #507
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    bren2001 wrote: »
    Why not head to Kings Landing? Well shipping down that many people is difficult and he tried that before but KL had Dragon Fire and absolutely destroyed him. If he could unite the North behind him his army would have been massive. Similar to Robb. He had no real choice other than take Winterfell and rally the North.
    Was there a reason given why he didn't land his fleet south of the wall in the first place? This would have saved an absolute stack of time and he'd have his full army at Winterfell in much better weather. Didn't he have to go even further north and trek through snow and ice for ages to get to Castle Black on the wrong side?


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    #508
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    iamanengine wrote: »
    But technically it did work because the snow melted, or at least that was what I gathered.

    ah but consider if it would have melted anyway, the witch knows this and knows she is lucky to have this coincidence and keeps her mouth shut about this revelation which will cause her to adjust her Machievellian plans.


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    #509
    bren2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,196 ✭✭✭bren2001


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Was there a reason given why he didn't land his fleet south of the wall in the first place? This would have saved an absolute stack of time and he'd have his full army at Winterfell in much better weather. Didn't he have to go even further north and trek through snow and ice for ages to get to Castle Black on the wrong side?

    That harks back to a discussion he had with Melisandre and Davos. After Davos is sentenced to death for freeing Gendry he produces a parchment from Maester Aemon saying Commander Mormont is dead. Melisandre burns the parchment and says the battle of the 5 kings is meaningless and death marches upon the wall, only Stannis can stop it. He lets Davos as he can get sell swords etc.

    Stannis then marches north and stops the wildlings. Presumably, the Lord of Light actually means the White Walkers will march on the wall and that is the real threat but that is for next season (maybe).


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    #510
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    masculinist wrote: »
    ah but consider if it would have melted anyway, the witch knows this and knows she is lucky to have this coincidence and keeps her mouth shut about this revelation which will cause her to adjust her Machievellian plans.
    I thought they were her god's plans, not hers? If the thaw was the fire god answering their sacrifice, I would've thought that meant Stannis was still the "chosen one". If it was just a random occurrence, then nothing at all happened due to the sacrifice, which we haven't seen before unless the kid didn't really have king's blood at all.


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    #511
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    bren2001 wrote: »
    That harks back to a discussion he had with Melisandre and Davos. After Davos is sentenced to death for freeing Gendry he produces a parchment from Maester Aemon saying Commander Mormont is dead. Melisandre burns the parchment and says the battle of the 5 kings is meaningless and death marches upon the wall, only Stannis can stop it. He lets Davos as he can get sell swords etc.

    Stannis then marches north and stops the wildlings. Presumably, the Lord of Light actually means the White Walkers will march on the wall and that is the real threat but that is for next season (maybe).
    He still could have landed south of the wall! So it was all a ruse to get Melisandre to Castle Black? Stannis had no interest in staying at the wall. He was after the throne.


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