S05 Ep10 - "Mother's Mercy" - HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS

bren2001

Dan_Solo wrote: »

He still could have landed south of the wall! So it was all a ruse to get Melisandre to Castle Black? Stannis had no interest in staying at the wall. He was after the throne.

How was it a ruse to get Melisandre to Castle Black? If the Wall was taken by the Wildlings, they would have raped and pilliged the North. Mance Rayder was a formidable leader and would have caused serious problems everyone. Furthermore, it would have left the Wall open for an attack from the White Walkers.

Of course Stannis had no interest in staying at the Wall. He believes he is the rightful King and is doing his duty to his realm. His plan was to secure the wall, take Winterfell and unite the North, then move south and take KL. If he had taken the North, it would have been hard to see anyone stopping him. He is by far the best military leader that was still alive at the end of season 5.


EDIT: Oh and him arriving North of the Wall. It is an irrelevant point. He arrived just in time for a the battle, it's dramatic license on the writers part. We have no idea where he actually docked his ships.

masculinist

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I thought they were her god's plans, not hers? If the thaw was the fire god answering their sacrifice, I would've thought that meant Stannis was still the "chosen one". If it was just a random occurrence, then nothing at all happened due to the sacrifice, which we haven't seen before unless the kid didn't really have king's blood at all.

The witch and her motivations is not all that she seems though is she ? There is more than one God in this fictional universe .e.g the many faced God. She is harnessing something evil but the true story we don't know yet. Her personal goal would be to rule through the eventual King, maybe attach a brain slug curse on him to control his mind. Did she not try to sleep with Jon Snow because he has kings blood ? When Stannis did the unthinkable and sacrificed his own daughter that's when he lost his soul. he also might have revealed that he did not have the bloodline of the rightful king after all which would cause a radical readjustment of the witches plans. I thought the thawing or aftermath of such a big sacrifice was too much of an anticlimax. Possibly it means the witch realised the spell did not work. if I really want to start on a LSD trip - i could speculate that the witch is actually one of the white walkers in shape shifting form who wants to find the true King so the bloodlines can be destroyed for all time.

bren2001

masculinist wrote: »

The witch and her motivations is not all that she seems though is she ? There is more than one God in this fictional universe .e.g the many faced God. She is harnessing something evil but the true story we don't know yet. Her personal goal would be to rule through the eventual King, maybe attach a brain slug curse on him to control his mind. Did she not try to sleep with Jon Snow because he has kings blood ? When Stannis did the unthinkable and sacrificed his own daughter that's when he lost his soul. he also might have revealed that he did not have the bloodline of the rightful king after all which would cause a radical readjustment of the witches plans. I thought the thawing or aftermath of such a big sacrifice was too much of an anticlimax. Possibly it means the witch realised the spell did not work. if I really want to start on a LSD trip - i could speculate that the witch is actually one of the white walkers in shape shifting form who wants to find the true King so the bloodlines can be destroyed for all time.

She is not a witch. She is a priest who harnesses the power of the Lord of Light. A lot of her stuff is just chemicals and illusions as she stated in S04.

Like every world, there are a variety of Gods. The old, the new, the many faced, the Lord of Light. Which is the one true set is unclear now. Each have a different set of abilities. Certain people in the world contain magical abilities e.g. warging.

The motivations of Melisandre are unclear and pure speculation. I personally believe she is just fulfilling the order of what she believes is the Lord of Light and wants the one true King in command. She is unsure of who that is.

She tried to sleep with Jon Snow because she saw something special in him and wanted to convince him abandon the wall and follow Stannis. At present, nobody in the Kingdom thinks Jon has Kings blood. He is a Stark (Snow) and his mother is a prostitute (whether that is true or not remains to be seen).

Why Stannis did not win the war against the Boltons is unclear. It either means:
A. Shireen does not have Kings blood so the sacrifice did not work.
B. If Stannis is still alive, he may still yet walk along the battlements of Winterfell. That was the vision. This is just the path he must go on first.

Of course it could be A&B or something completely different. I didn't see the thawing of the snow you are talking about. It still looked pretty snowy to me and he just marched through it with his soldiers.

You are entitled to speculate that Melisandre is being controlled by the White Walkers. I think that is utterly bizarre and nothing so far suggests this to be true. It would be terrible writing from GRR Martin.

DeVore

The vision was that the Bolton's banners would be ripped down from the castle... it wasn't clear who would do it nor who's would replace them.

DarkoT

masculinist wrote: »

I have a feeling Jon Snow will be resurrected and- this is a stab in the dark- that the reason why Stannis failed is because when he sacrified his daughter the magic didn't work or something - which means he is not rightful King and his bloodline wasnt rightful ; all of which leaves Jon Snow's blood to satisfy the witches lust for power. The witch might have been shocked to discover the sacrifice of the blood of daughter of Stannis to have been rejected by whatever evil she worships . I'm struggling to remember last season now. I cant remember if Gendry Baratheon lives or not. If they kill off everyone then they need to develop some of the less known characters more so we feel we know them.

Gendry Baratheon is alive because he was set free on a boat by Ser Davos

masculinist

bren2001 wrote: »

She is not a witch. She is a priest who harnesses the power of the Lord of Light.

This depends on your definition of a witch. Witches often are said to worship the Devil as a God. Demons can be seen as small Gods And she is looking decidedly evil to me and serving an evil small God or ''demon with aspirations'' now by encouraging the sacrifice of the innocent child Shireen Baratheon.
Witch or priestess, if serving some '''Lord of Light'' who sacrifices innocents then this name looks like propaganda and it really should be ''Lord of Fire''
interestingly the God of the Old Testament back in the real world wasn't averse to sacrifices either.

bren2001 wrote: »

The motivations of Melisandre are unclear and pure speculation. I personally believe she is just fulfilling the order of what she believes is the Lord of Light and wants the one true King in command. She is unsure of who that is.

Of course its speculation mate. Its fantasy fiction aint it :pac:

bren2001 wrote: »

She tried to sleep with Jon Snow because she saw something special in him and wanted to convince him abandon the wall and follow Stannis. At present, nobody in the Kingdom thinks Jon has Kings blood. He is a Stark (Snow) and his mother is a prostitute (whether that is true or not remains to be seen).

I had a strong feeling that Melisandre wanted to sleep with Jon Snow in order to become pregnant with a child of Royal blood which could be sacrificed. What do you think about this ? It's very Rosemarys baby but look what happened to poor Shireen in the end. The question is how accurate is Melisandres' sixth sense for who has royal blood and who hasnt'. It might have been wishful thinking error in the case of Shireen but spot on for a resurrected Jon Snow.

bren2001 wrote: »

Of course it could be A&B or something completely different. I didn't see the thawing of the snow you are talking about. It still looked pretty snowy to me and he just marched through it with his soldiers.

Sorry did I say the snow thawed ? It could have been special effects anyway. I did not count the number of snowy pixels on the screen however I do clearly remember Melissandre [or some other character] referring to the thaw as being good luck as a way to boost morale and get the troops moving. It was kind of like an Enda Kenny 'the economy is growing employment' type statement. You have to get on with life regardless of whats happened so they did by getting out of there. I had a feeling though that it was an anti-climax, that Shireen was sacrificed in return for nothing. All my sympathy for Stannis evaporated and I could feel that even if he gained the Iron Throne, how could he ever again enjoy it knowing what he had done.

bren2001 wrote: »

You are entitled to speculate that Melisandre is being controlled by the White Walkers. I think that is utterly bizarre and nothing so far suggests this to be true. It would be terrible writing from GRR Martin.

Speculation is all it was and the bare bones of a sketchy idea whch needs refinement. If we cover as many bases as possible then one of us is going to hit the target eventually. It may turn out that Melissandre is some sort of demon shape shifter who will show an uglier face when threatened. These are plot devices used many times in fantasy fiction.

masculinist

DarkoT wrote: »

Gendry Baratheon is alive because he was set free on a boat by Ser Davos

Yes yes. Damn my alzheimers. It was a long dark winter waiting for the next season :pac:

seamus

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Having seen it a few days after everyone else, a few things struck me as off.
Staniss has been described as the greatest military leader in Westeros. We saw his army as huge enough to instantly subdue the wildlings. How could he be so stupid to lose over half his force in such a relatively short time? Then when he knew his force was so depleted, why keep going towards a hopeless siege?

Davos pointed this out very well. They simply didn't have the supplies to backtrack to Castle Black. Half of his army had abandoned him, with the horses. This would make tracking back through the snow next to impossible (you use horses to make trails through heavy snow). His wife & daughter are dead, he has lost everything. His only two options are to stay put and die in the snow or march forward to Winterfell, regardless of how futile it will be, and die in battle, honorably. It's lose/lose; you can spend a few weeks being cold, hungry and miserable before dying a horrible death, or you can die on your feet with a blade in your hand after taking few Boltons with you.

In terms of Melisandre and the whole "coming of King Stannis" thing, it seemed pretty clear that she had a right grá for Jon Snow and his potential as King. There's a lot of rumour around about Jon's parentage and that his mother may actually be of royal lineage, potentially even a Baratheon woman. So Melisandre may interpret Jon as being the "saviour king" she's seen in her visions and resurrect him.

GerB40

iamanengine wrote: »

But technically it did work because the snow melted, or at least that was what I gathered.

Global warming...

J. Marston

DeVore wrote: »

The vision was that the Bolton's banners would be ripped down from the castle... it wasn't clear who would do it nor who's would replace them.

She also said she saw herself walking the battlements of Winterfell.

mzungu

seamus wrote: »

Davos pointed this out very well. They simply didn't have the supplies to backtrack to Castle Black. Half of his army had abandoned him, with the horses. This would make tracking back through the snow next to impossible (you use horses to make trails through heavy snow). His wife & daughter are dead, he has lost everything. His only two options are to stay put and die in the snow or march forward to Winterfell, regardless of how futile it will be, and die in battle, honorably. It's lose/lose; you can spend a few weeks being cold, hungry and miserable before dying a horrible death, or you can die on your feet with a blade in your hand after taking few Boltons with you.

In terms of Melisandre and the whole "coming of King Stannis" thing, it seemed pretty clear that she had a right grá for Jon Snow and his potential as King. There's a lot of rumour around about Jon's parentage and that his mother may actually be of royal lineage, potentially even a Baratheon woman. So Melisandre may interpret Jon as being the "saviour king" she's seen in her visions and resurrect him.

Interesting point. Would Shireens sacrifice fit into the ressurection plans I wonder? I am not totally sold on the snow thawing being a miracle from the Lord of Light, maybe the real miracle will be allowing Jon to live again through the sacrifice. A life for a life and all that. A life for a measly snow thaw just doesn't cut the mustard!

DarkoT

mzungu wrote: »

Interesting point. Would Shireens sacrifice fit into the ressurection plans I wonder? I am not totally sold on the snow thawing being a miracle from the Lord of Light, maybe the real miracle will be allowing Jon to live again through the sacrifice. A life for a life and all that. A life for a measly snow thaw just doesn't cut the mustard!

Well If it's not John the savior king, than who else would it be? I can't think of someone expect of Gendry Baratheon, because bastard or no bastard he is the only son of Robert Baratheon

Mr E

I've deleted the last 5 posts as they referred to a character that hasn't been on the TV show yet.

Book readers go away.

PressRun

Mr E wrote: »

I've deleted the last 5 posts as they referred to a character that hasn't been on the TV show yet.

Book readers go away.

I'm not a book reader and the information in the posts you deleted is out there for anyone to find in the lore videos or what have you surrounding the show. The theory about Jon is well known between readers and watchers alike at this stage. It's not a spoiler.

Richie71

mzungu wrote:

If this is true, I wonder why Ned did not tell Catelyn the full story from the outset. Seems a bit unfair on Jon to have Catelyn despise him all his life. Ned and Catelyn seemed to have a pretty solid trusting relationship, so you would have to wonder why he never saw fit to give her all the details.

Daenary's brother was married and heir to the throne at the time. Jon being a bastard might been killed. Also, when Robert took over as king, he would have seen Jon as a treath and had him killed as he tried with all the other Tagaeryan children.

PressRun

mzungu wrote: »

If this is true, I wonder why Ned did not tell Catelyn the full story from the outset. Seems a bit unfair on Jon to have Catelyn despise him all his life. Ned and Catelyn seemed to have a pretty solid trusting relationship, so you would have to wonder why he never saw fit to give her all the details.

It does seem strange he wouldn't tell her the truth especially given how it seemed to upset Catelyn that he supposedly had been unfaithful. But I guess the only way to ensure something stays a secret is to keep it entirely to yourself.

Stannis did mention this season too that it wasn't really Ned Stark's style to have an illegitimate child. Perhaps he's curious too about where Jon really came from.

Mr E

PressRun wrote: »

I'm not a book reader and the information in the posts you deleted is out there for anyone to find in the lore videos or what have you surrounding the show. The theory about Jon is well known between readers and watchers alike at this stage. It's not a spoiler.

You assume that everyone watches the lore videos (which realistically have to be linked to the books in some way).

paulmclaughlin

PressRun wrote: »

It does seem strange he wouldn't tell her the truth especially given how it seemed to upset Catelyn that he supposedly had been unfaithful. But I guess the only way to ensure something stays a secret is to keep it entirely to yourself.

Stannis did mention this season too that it wasn't really Ned Stark's style to have an illegitimate child. Perhaps he's curious too about where Jon really came from.

It could be easily explained that Ned swore on his honour he wouldn't tell a soul. We all know how important honour is to him.

PressRun

Mr E wrote: »

You assume that everyone watches the lore videos (which realistically have to be linked to the books in some way).

The lore videos are included as extras on the DVDs of the show. It's not some well-kept secret or fan-made stuff that book readers are creating. They're even voiced by the people who play the characters in the show.

My point anyway is that this info is out there and isn't being exclusively discussed by book readers. It's fairly common knowledge at this point among show watchers and book readers alike, and hardly a spoiler.

seligehgit

Anything outside of the actual show episodes is a spoiler imo.

Richie71

I don't think it matters too much if Stannis is dead or not. If he survives, he'll only play a support role from here on. Possibly at the wall. His army is depleted and Malisandre deserted him. Can't see him taking over KL at this stage. My question would be if the two captive dragons have survived in Mereen.

My long standing theory is that they end up being owned by 3 dragon riders....Danaerys, Jon (assuming he's still alive) and possibly Arya. Bran will have some part in helping fight the White Walkers.

Mr. CooL ICE

bren2001 wrote: »

Why Stannis did not win the war against the Boltons is unclear. It either means:
A. Shireen does not have Kings blood so the sacrifice did not work.
B. If Stannis is still alive, he may still yet walk along the battlements of Winterfell. That was the vision. This is just the path he must go on first.

Interesting point. Shireen didn't have black hair. When it comes to the Baratheons, "the seed is strong"...

wp_rathead

Jesus I'm always referencing The History and Lore video's in these thread's 0_o
Never considered it spoilers

PressRun

wp_rathead wrote: »

Jesus I'm always referencing The History and Lore video's in these thread's 0_o
Never considered it spoilers

They're not spoilers. It's background info that informs you as to why the things that are happening in the show are actually happening. A lot of the theories about the show (some of which have already been discussed in the non-readers threads) are thought up by people who are aware of this background info.

A spoiler, to me, is anything that reveals 100% something that happens in the future. The info in the lore and histories videos doesn't do that. People who are coming up with theories are just making guesses based on what's already readily available to any show-watcher who hasn't read the books.

Pugzilla

The 3 Dragons will the destroy the white walkers.

THE END

DeVore

1. There was definitely a thawing after the child-sacrifice, it was blatant and pointed out in the following episode.

2. Lord of Light... I had presumed everyone had gotten this reference (or perhaps not "reference" but certainly an oblique knowing nod). Lucifer translates (roughly) to "light bearer" and he is occasionally referred to as the Lord of Light (or similar names). I don't think its supposed to apply directly to Westeros but for a God, the Lord of Light is pretty nasty with some unpleasant tastes it must be said.

mzungu

DeVore wrote: »

1. There was definitely a thawing after the child-sacrifice, it was blatant and pointed out in the following episode.

2. Lord of Light... I had presumed everyone had gotten this reference (or perhaps not "reference" but certainly an oblique knowing nod). Lucifer translates (roughly) to "light bearer" and he is occasionally referred to as the Lord of Light (or similar names). I don't think its supposed to apply directly to Westeros but for a God, the Lord of Light is pretty nasty with some unpleasant tastes it must be said.

He must feel right at home Westeros in that case

OhHiMark

PressRun wrote: »

They're not spoilers. It's background info that informs you as to why the things that are happening in the show are actually happening. A lot of the theories about the show (some of which have already been discussed in the non-readers threads) are thought up by people who are aware of this background info.

A spoiler, to me, is anything that reveals 100% something that happens in the future. The info in the lore and histories videos doesn't do that. People who are coming up with theories are just making guesses based on what's already readily available to any show-watcher who hasn't read the books.

And some people feel differently than you. Some people don't want to hear theories based on information that isn't in the TV show. Somebody might be right with the theory, but it's not something I would have ever thought of, making it less of a surprise when it comes out.

masculinist

How about this for a plot Tangent ? Stannis is awakening from a years long enchantment which the witch had cast upon him, realized what he has done under her influence, consumed by guilt over the torturous murder of his only daughter who he had already sacrificed so much to save from Greyscale and wants to die by Briennes' hand without any trial. Lady Brienne being ever flying solo in her own principles considers her [merciful and kind] Lord Renly to have been best served by giving him a formal trial and even letting this miserable wretch live; they end up both blaming the ''Priestess'' who is being seen more clearly as a witch who worships something evil and malevolent [something I spotted right from the get go] who enchanted his free will away and controlled all these events up to the death of his own child. Lady Brienne considers maybe the death of his own child is punishment enough and that Stannis should swear revenge with her against the witch so they both end up blaming the witch for the wrongs that have been inflicted upon them and those they loved. So Lady Brienne and Stannis head off together in pursuit of this witch who took everything they both cared for away from them.
Additional plot twist to ruin a good series better than a Dorne episode : Brienne falls in love with Stannis which influences her judgement and they make extremely tall babies :pac:

DeVore

Still a better love story than Twilight...