M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Schadenfreudia · 13-05-2015 7:28pm

There are two points to be made about the M11 v the M20.

Firstly, the CPO was completed back in 2005 and the roadway fenced off - it was ready to go for a decade.

Secondly it was a much smaller project (especially if you exclude Newlands X) joining two existing stretches of motorway and removing a lethal stretch of road between them.

If there is any priority issue it must be that the M17/18 is being extended from Ennis to Tuam in two stages, both given the go-ahead after the economic collapse.

Either project connects Limerick to another city - it is the Cork politicians have been asleep at the wheel!

Deedsie · 13-05-2015 9:21pm

sdanseo wrote: »

kub made reference to Fianna Fáil having done "nothing" about the M20:

Now I don't for a second deny that FF made a bit of a mess of the economy, but that was fairly all-encompassing and not a specific issue. Is it Fianna Fáil''s fault that a halt was called? Probably, albeit indirectly, but it's not correct to say they did nothing.

A bit of a mess?

http://www.financedublin.com/debtclock.php

That's our current debt, €183bn. Now I am not one to put all the blame on Fianna Fáil. Plenty more contributed to the damage. Including Fine Gael, but at least things are improving under them, making it someway possible we might see this road before 2025.

Dannyboy83 · 14-05-2015 11:36am

sdanseo wrote: »

Now I don't for a second deny that FF made a bit of a mess of the economy, but that was fairly all-encompassing and not a specific issue. Is it Fianna Fáil''s fault that a halt was called? Probably, albeit indirectly, but it's not correct to say they did nothing.

FF were building 'bridges to nowhere' in Donegal for electioneering purposes, while important infrastructural projects have been sidelined since before some of the people posting in this thread were born - and will continue to be apparently.

But it seems to be an Irish government problem, rather than any one political party.
i.e. the continuing mis-allocation of resources, under Irish Governments - in general. Pork Barrel Politics.

I'm not sure if this type of corruption goes unpunished in other fields - I struggle to imagine a doctor who would choose medical card holders to whom he would preferentially dispense medicine, based on their opinion of him, as opposed to his ethical obligations. (maybe I'm wrong).

Countries with a highly developed infrastructure such as Germany struggle to recognise what area will return most bang for investment buck; We don't struggle with that same problem yet in Ireland, because we haven't reached that stage yet.

Cork was neglected during the Celtic Tiger, but post-collapse, it has fallen to the bottom of the list - I'm not sure if that is because Cork primarily elected the opposition TDs, or simply because we don't complain.

I don't really see a solution for this problem however, other than for Cork to stop paying so much into the exchequer in the hope of getting a measly percentage back for road maintenance.
If we had stronger local government, we could hold more of that money back and would have a better chance of planning spending and allocating investment.

Carawaystick · 14-05-2015 1:58pm

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Countries with a highly developed infrastructure such as Germany struggle to recognise what area will return most bang for investment buck; We don't struggle with that same problem yet in Ireland, because we haven't reached that stage yet.

Germany has gombeen politicians too, and creaking infrastructure too.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-s-infrastructure-rusts-as-politicians-fiddle-1.2036328

Dannyboy83 · 14-05-2015 2:21pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Germany has gombeen politicians too, and creaking infrastructure too.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/germany-s-infrastructure-rusts-as-politicians-fiddle-1.2036328

Of course they do, there is nowhere that doesn't, including Denmark, which is apparently the least corrupt country in the world.

The point I was making with contrasting a country such as Germany and Ireland, is that in Germany - it can be difficult to know where to allocate resources, the line between Wahlgeschenke/Kirchturmpolitik & optimal resource allocation is not always distinct, or can at least be argued.

In Ireland, this excuse cannot be used - it's clear that pouring resources into a bridge to nowhere in Donegal, will yield much less bang for buck than a motorway connecting the 2nd & 3rd cities - hence my suggestion of the Pork Barrel having a lot to answer for.
(I'm not picking on Donegal either btw, there are examples of projects undertaken within Cork and Limerick which should have taken a lower precedence over the M20)

jank · 15-05-2015 4:01am

As I mentioned previously, the only way this project gets built is when the government announced some type of new national infrastructure investment and road building plan, like Transport 21 of old.

With the crash, pretty much all big capital intensive projects were canned. Now with the recovery very much in full swing, the economy growing at 4%+ for the next few years, the infrastructure deficit we already had in 2008 will become more apparent again and will be a hot button topic again coming into the next election and after

I would be shocked if the minions in the DOT along with their NRA, RPA and all the rest were not drawing up some plans for Irish transportation infrastructure needs for the next 10 or so years. A lot of this work is already done, as many routes have been designed and planned. Of course drawing up nice shiny plans in an election manifesto is one thing, getting the cash and building the thing is quite another.

The next 12 months will see some move towards the shiny plans at least.

Limerick74 · 15-05-2015 6:28pm

Limerick Leader article on M20 & Foynes to Limerick schemes.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/new-foynes-road-to-take-priority-as-m20-plans-shelved-1-6744805

swoofer · 15-05-2015 6:40pm

The reason why the M20 has been shelved is here

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.2162008,-8.7249395,9z?hl=en

its as plain as day, its the Dublin factor, with a motoway to Cork and Limerick Dublin would loose all its attractions, you would have 2 airports, 2 large population areas, commutable each way, 2 universities, etc I could go on.

At the moment all roads lead to Dublin and so it shall remain. The advent of the new Eircom, ESB/Vodafone roll out will knock that road back further, ie BB speeds will exceed those in Dublin.

Its a shame but that's Ireland. And no doubt will happen in other countries as well.

Mind you the whole project is a no brainer and we have plenty of TD's ....

Schadenfreudia · 15-05-2015 6:41pm

The Limerick TD said it “beggars belief” that the Government would pursue the development of a new motorway from Limerick to Foynes while abandoning plans to link the two cities. “People simply can’t understand the Government’s thinking here. It is so obvious to everybody that this government cares less about the regions outside of Dublin. This decision is another confirmation of this approach,” Mr Collins said.

So, the road between Limerick to Foynes is located in Dublin (like the M17/M18 no doubt)?

That kind of knee-jerk rustic rant really annoys me; Limerick has yet again been prioritised over Cork (no doubt due to the influence of Limerick politicians like Collins) and Collins, to help his party in Cork, tries to blame "Dublin".

Calina · 15-05-2015 6:49pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

So, the road between Limerick to Foynes is located in Dublin (like the M17/M18 no doubt)?

That kind of knee-jerk rustic rant really annoys me; Limerick has yet again been prioritised over Cork (no doubt due to the influence of Limerick politicians like Collins) and Collins, to help his party in Cork, tries to blame "Dublin".

Arguably, the problem as I see it, is that decisions made in Dublin are often made in ignorance of the country outside Dublin. And that is the point he is driving at. Not that Foynes is located in Dublin.

Cookiemunster · 16-05-2015 1:08pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

So, the road between Limerick to Foynes is located in Dublin (like the M17/M18 no doubt)?

That kind of knee-jerk rustic rant really annoys me; Limerick has yet again been prioritised over Cork (no doubt due to the influence of Limerick politicians like Collins) and Collins, to help his party in Cork, tries to blame "Dublin".

Limerick prioritised over Cork? You're obviously not from Limerick, because that's not even close to being true. If that was the case then the northern section of the M20 would be going ahead. The fact is that the N69 is part of a Euro route that the EU has prioritised under the Ten T program. If it wasn't being funded by the EU it wouldn't be happening.

Also Collins is FF. I'm not sure what influence you think FF have these days over government policy.

Schadenfreudia · 16-05-2015 10:08pm

Calina wrote: »

Arguably, the problem as I see it, is that decisions made in Dublin are often made in ignorance of the country outside Dublin. And that is the point he is driving at. Not that Foynes is located in Dublin.

He said “People simply can’t understand the Government’s thinking here. It is so obvious to everybody that this government cares less about the regions outside of Dublin. This decision is another confirmation of this approach”

Given the Taoiseach is from Mayo and most of the senior Ministers are from outside the Pale I'm afraid this is just populist nonsense.

The sort of parish pump "a hospital in every village" mentality that, ironically, has ensured that no significant counter-weight to Dublin has ever emerged.

Like what projects would he shelve to pay for the M20? (Apart from the Foynes road, which isn't near enough)

Or will he commit FF to definitely going ahead with this after the next election?

Nothing concrete from him - just typical FF/FG waffle.

spacetweek · 18-05-2015 12:59pm

swoofer wrote: »

The reason why the M20 has been shelved is here

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.2162008,-8.7249395,9z?hl=en

its as plain as day, its the Dublin factor, with a motoway to Cork and Limerick Dublin would loose all its attractions, you would have 2 airports, 2 large population areas, commutable each way, 2 universities, etc I could go on.

At the moment all roads lead to Dublin and so it shall remain. The advent of the new Eircom, ESB/Vodafone roll out will knock that road back further, ie BB speeds will exceed those in Dublin.

You're way off here - investment isn't zero sum. By making Cork/Limerick more attractive to invest in, you aren't necessarily taking away from Dublin. The total amount of investment increases.

I certainly don't follow the bit about BB - Eircom's plan will result in better BB outside Dublin, which according to your logic would make the rest of the country more attractive to invest in.

hardy_buck · 15-06-2015 4:58pm

So is this motorway and all planning with it properly dead or is there any chance it could ever be restarted?

L1011 · 15-06-2015 6:28pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

So is this motorway and all planning with it properly dead or is there any chance it could ever be restarted?

The original plan is probably dead. There will, eventually, be an M20 assuming we don't suddenly move away from motorised transport (personal, public and freight) entirely suddenly. It could be a very different route, e.g. coming from further up the M8.

funnyname · 16-06-2015 11:24pm

L1011 wrote: »

The original plan is probably dead. There will, eventually, be an M20 assuming we don't suddenly move away from motorised transport (personal, public and freight) entirely suddenly. It could be a very different route, e.g. coming from further up the M8.

That would be nuts if they go up the m8 and say join the n24 at cahir, that would add 40km to the journey. Also what about all the towns on the n20 that would still need to be bypassed. I have a feeling money will be made available for this in the next budget.

marno21 · 17-06-2015 1:11am

It's ludicrious that planning hasn't restarted. If we restart planning when the country is "prosperous" again the country will be tits up by the time construction begins.

touts · 17-06-2015 11:26am

funnyname wrote: »

That would be nuts if they go up the m8 and say join the n24 at cahir, that would add 40km to the journey. Also what about all the towns on the n20 that would still need to be bypassed. I have a feeling money will be made available for this in the next budget.

If they do make money available in the next budget it will be an empty election promise and will quietly disappear come the next government. Most money will be pumped into projects in around Dublin where a government will get a greater bang, vote wise, for their buck.

Long term my bet is they will go Limerick to Mitchelstown to link up with the M8 and say job done then. That would also cover half the proposed N24 (the second half of that, Cahir-Waterford-Rosslare will never get done). But either way we won't see any real progress on any of these roads for a decade or more. For all intents and purposes it is dead now.

Cookiemunster · 17-06-2015 11:40am

touts wrote: »

If they do make money available in the next budget it will be an empty election promise and will quietly disappear come the next government. Most money will be pumped into projects in around Dublin where a government will get a greater bang, vote wise, for their buck.

Long term my bet is they will go Limerick to Mitchelstown to link up with the M8 and say job done then. That would also cover half the proposed N24 (the second half of that, Cahir-Waterford-Rosslare will never get done). But either way we won't see any real progress on any of these roads for a decade or more. For all intents and purposes it is dead now.

What that won't do is replace the Cork - Mallow section of the N20 or bypass Charleville and Buttevant. It's not all about Cork to Limerick, there is a lot of commuting into Limerick and Cork from various places along the route.

touts · 17-06-2015 11:43am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What that won't do is replace the Cork - Mallow section of the N20 or bypass Charleville and Buttevant. It's not all about Cork to Limerick, there is a lot of commuting into Limerick and Cork from various places along the route.

Agree but it will allow them to say that there is an alternative and X amount of cars will be taken off the route. If roads were build based on what people actually needed then this would have been done years ago.

marno21 · 17-06-2015 12:40pm

touts wrote: »

Agree but it will allow them to say that there is an alternative and X amount of cars will be taken off the route. If roads were build based on what people actually needed then this would have been done years ago.

At present the N24, R513 and M8 provide the option of going to Cork you propose, and the R513 is most definately not over capacity.

This road is needed for traffic between Limerick, Charleville, Mallow and Cork as much as through traffic.

lucernarian · 17-06-2015 1:50pm

marno21 wrote: »

At present the N24, R513 and M8 provide the option of going to Cork you propose, and the R513 is most definately not over capacity.

This road is needed for traffic between Limerick, Charleville, Mallow and Cork as much as through traffic.

If we're talking motorways, they're more about linking cities, not small towns and villages. Cork County Council are looking for funding for the Mallow north relief road for instance and also to sort out some of the worst parts of the N20. If that, plus an M8 link-up could be done, could it offer a cheaper yet effective alternative?

marno21 · 17-06-2015 1:58pm

lucernarian wrote: »

If we're talking motorways, they're more about linking cities, not small towns and villages. Cork County Council are looking for funding for the Mallow north relief road for instance and also to sort out some of the worst parts of the N20. If that, plus an M8 link-up could be done, could it offer a cheaper yet effective alternative?

There's no point in improving the N20 and then building a motorway through rural areas of Co. Limerick.

If motorways were just about connecting cities there would be no need for exits on them

spacetweek · 17-06-2015 2:06pm

touts wrote: »

Agree but it will allow them to say that there is an alternative and X amount of cars will be taken off the route. If roads were build based on what people actually needed then this would have been done years ago.

No the M20 was a victim of the gov prioritising the interurbans and running out of money as soon as they were done.

spacetweek · 17-06-2015 2:12pm

lucernarian wrote: »

If we're talking motorways, they're more about linking cities, not small towns and villages. Cork County Council are looking for funding for the Mallow north relief road for instance and also to sort out some of the worst parts of the N20. If that, plus an M8 link-up could be done, could it offer a cheaper yet effective alternative?

Ireland has a much more dispersed population than most European countries. Here, motorways are just as much about local traffic as they are for long distance.
The intention isn't to build what's cheapest, it's to build what's right.

lucernarian · 17-06-2015 3:09pm

marno21 wrote: »

There's no point in improving the N20 and then building a motorway through rural areas of Co. Limerick.

If motorways were just about connecting cities there would be no need for exits on them

Still stands that they are more about intercity connection than serving small villages and towns. There's reasons why Galway, Cork, Limerick, Belfast Waterford are linked to Dublin first before the likes of Wexford and Sligo.

Why is there "no point"? If there was a significant money saving compared to the M20, a package of improvements like this could commence rapidly and alleviate the serious problems the N20 currently has.

Reputable Rog · 17-06-2015 3:19pm

lucernarian wrote: »

If we're talking motorways, they're more about linking cities, not small towns and villages. Cork County Council are looking for funding for the Mallow north relief road for instance and also to sort out some of the worst parts of the N20. If that, plus an M8 link-up could be done, could it offer a cheaper yet effective alternative?

The M20 is the cheapest option available. The other scenario explored involved following the N24 to Cahir and connecting with the M8 which would have been significantly more expensive and a bigger engineering project.

Reputable Rog · 17-06-2015 3:23pm

spacetweek wrote: »

Ireland has a much more dispersed population than most European countries. Here, motorways are just as much about local traffic as they are for long distance.
The intention isn't to build what's cheapest, it's to build what's right.

Correct, but for some bizzare reason the NRA refuse to see them as anything other than inter city routes.
The NRA are completley against any volume of commuter traffic using the National Primary Road network.

Markcheese · 17-06-2015 7:28pm

Always though limerick , cork and Waterford motorways should have met somewhere in tipp - then up to meet up with Galway road and on to Dublin - take of the Dublin centeredness off our road networks -
Is there really a need for a cork limerick motorway anyway ? in terms of population and freight movements - ?
( not saying a serious upgrade isn't required but motorway ?)

irishfeen · 17-06-2015 7:40pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Always though limerick , cork and Waterford motorways should have met somewhere in tipp - then up to meet up with Galway road and on to Dublin - take of the Dublin centeredness off our road networks -
Is there really a need for a cork limerick motorway anyway ? in terms of population and freight movements - ?
( not saying a serious upgrade isn't required but motorway ?)

:eek: ... are you seriously asking is their need for a motorway between the 2nd and 3rd largest population bases in the state??

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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