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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

BluntGuy

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

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Bazzer007

Some interesting comments made by the Minister for Transport regarding funding for the m20. I can't post the link (new user) but check out the evening echo website, headline 'Minister Examining Road Projects for Funds'. Seems to have softened a bit compared to previous comments made in May

marno21

M40 should serve the purpose the original N25 was meant to, a Cork bypass for N71, N22, N27 traffic etc, with less junctions and 120km/h limit. Let the current N40 (still should be redesignated) be the commuter ring road

AugustusMinimus

marno21 wrote: »

Or indeed anywhere bar the northside/Blackpool. Direct access onto the N40 is great.

That's why M40 NRR East needs to be built with the M20.

marno21

Irish_rat wrote: »

The current N20 is a pile of muck.

I usually do N24/R513/M8

Much better drive and it's not too much over the hour depending on traffic.

It's easier if you need to go to the Airport and east of Cork.

Or indeed anywhere bar the northside/Blackpool. Direct access onto the N40 is great.

Irish_rat

The current N20 is a pile of muck.

I usually do N24/R513/M8

Much better drive and it's not too much over the hour depending on traffic.

It's easier if you need to go to the Airport and east of Cork.

Geogregor

spacetweek wrote: »

Also this

Thanks a lot!

spacetweek

Geogregor wrote: »

I'm just genuinely interested what is AADT there.

Also this

kub

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I've said this before, but its always an interesting one to bring up. The Historical OS maps on the OSI website are from, we think, the 1890s or thereabouts.

The bends at Buttevant haven't been realigned since then.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,553977,607432,9,7

Ah you have it......there must be some sort of a historical preservation order on them, like old buildings, you know they can't alter them etc....:rolleyes:

Wait for the excuse....

Chris_5339762

I've said this before, but its always an interesting one to bring up. The Historical OS maps on the OSI website are from, we think, the 1890s or thereabouts.

The bends at Buttevant haven't been realigned since then.

http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V2,553977,607432,9,7

KerranJast

If an M8 fork was built, you still will have to:
=> properly bypass Mallow,
=> resolve the dangerous section from Mallow side of Buttevant to Ballyhea
=> Adare bypass
=> Upgrade Cork to Mallow

That's 80-90% of the length of the proposed M20 that needs work.

If an M8 fork was built, it would reduce some of the traffic from Cork City ->Limerick via the N20 but the vast majority of road users North and West of Mallow will still use the old road resulting in continued fatalities.

Carawaystick

marno21 wrote: »

I can also see the AADT rising after motorway upgrade along the current route as more people would use the M20 vs. currently trying to avoid it by using either the N21, R513 + M8, or the R512.

Or just not travelling.

marno21

Geogregor wrote: »

No need to get defensive. I agree that Cork and Limerick deserve decent road connection. HQDC then redesignated as motorway (to please NIMBYs)

I'm just genuinely interested what is AADT there.

And, as it seems that planning has to be done from scratch, why not investigate options of building motorway from M8 somewhere around Mitchelstown towards Limerick?
I'm not local expert (however visit Cork fairly frequently and often drive M8 north) but looking at the maps terrain there doesn't look particularly challenging. Some hills here and there. It is nothing like Alpine or even just proper mountainous terrain.

Such way would allow future extending of good road towards Waterford.
And it is way less milage to build.

It would be nice to see list of pros and cons for both solutions (building motorway along the current N20 or towards Mitchelstown)

AADT on the 2+1 section just above Rathduff: 16,281 (5.9% HGV)
AADT at Lisballyhea between Buttevant and Charleville: 9,865 (7.4% HGV)
AADT on Croom bypass just below the M20 begins: 13,285 (5.9% HGV)

I've posted before multiple times if you want to search the thread about why the M20 needs to shadow it's current route instead of direct route to the M8 at Mitchelstown.

I can also see the AADT rising after motorway upgrade along the current route as more people would use the M20 vs. currently trying to avoid it by using either the N21, R513 + M8, or the R512.

Geogregor

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Can you even derive meaning from this figure ? Loads of people are driving through Mitchelstown to get to Limerick to avoid the mess that is the N20.

I hope you're not trying to suggest that the M20 shouldn't be built ?. These are the 2nd and 3rd cities in the Island. Why are AADT figures ignored when it comes to the M18 - M17 scheme ?

No need to get defensive. I agree that Cork and Limerick deserve decent road connection. HQDC then redesignated as motorway (to please NIMBYs)

I'm just genuinely interested what is AADT there.

And, as it seems that planning has to be done from scratch, why not investigate options of building motorway from M8 somewhere around Mitchelstown towards Limerick?
I'm not local expert (however visit Cork fairly frequently and often drive M8 north) but looking at the maps terrain there doesn't look particularly challenging. Some hills here and there. It is nothing like Alpine or even just proper mountainous terrain.

Such way would allow future extending of good road towards Waterford.
And it is way less milage to build.

It would be nice to see list of pros and cons for both solutions (building motorway along the current N20 or towards Mitchelstown)

lucernarian

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Can you even derive meaning from this figure ? Loads of people are driving through Mitchelstown to get to Limerick to avoid the mess that is the N20.

I hope you're not trying to suggest that the M20 shouldn't be built ?. These are the 2nd and 3rd cities in the Island. Why are AADT figures ignored when it comes to the M18 - M17 scheme ?

Getting your knickers in a twist there I think, it's just a question;)

Someone's said that the alternative of linking to the M8 (akin to building a new N24) would be more expensive but without sources. I imagined building one good road to serve both the N24 and N20 route would have been cheaper but fair enough. It's insane to think of the standard of roads being proposed in Co. Galway with the M17 and possible N6 dual carriageway around Galway, while this glorified regional road is basically untouched in decades north of Mallow. Whether a direct M20 or a route using the M8, it should have been started years ago.

Reputable Rog

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Can you even derive meaning from this figure ? Loads of people are driving through Mitchelstown to get to Limerick to avoid the mess that is the N20.

I hope you're not trying to suggest that the M20 shouldn't be built ?. These are the 2nd and 3rd cities in the Island. Why are AADT figures ignored when it comes to the M18 - M17 scheme ?

3rd and 4th or 5th, depending how you define it.

AugustusMinimus

Geogregor wrote: »

What is the AADT on current N20? Let say somewhere in the middle between Cork and Limerick (not counting suburban Cork or Limerick traffic)

Can you even derive meaning from this figure ? Loads of people are driving through Mitchelstown to get to Limerick to avoid the mess that is the N20.

I hope you're not trying to suggest that the M20 shouldn't be built ?. These are the 2nd and 3rd cities in the Island. Why are AADT figures ignored when it comes to the M18 - M17 scheme ?

Geogregor

What is the AADT on current N20? Let say somewhere in the middle between Cork and Limerick (not counting suburban Cork or Limerick traffic)

Missyelliot2

I am so fed-up driving on this road! Today, I was in a queue for so long, I took the 'Mallow town centre' exit when entering Mallow and circled around until I got onto the Limerick exit. I will do this forever more......
Almost smiling til Buttevant - another 20 minute wait.

Schadenfreudia

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I'd say a lot of tunelling and rock breaking involved, as well as lot of boglands and a plethora of one off houses. Much more expensive.

And probably lots of bog lice for the litigious anti-roads folk to get worked up about :cool:

marno21

irishfeen wrote: »

Was the preferred path around Mallow ever revealed? as in left or right of Mallow town? .. I assume right to link in with Fermoy/Mitchelstown road.

To the east/right of the town, a junction is planned with access to the to-be-redesignated N72 through the town and the new N72 northern relief road to meet the existing N72 at the west of the town.

http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/M20_Cork_Limerick_Motorway%20Scheme_Preliminary%20Design_June_2009/handout_01_02.pdf

irishfeen

Was the preferred path around Mallow ever revealed? as in left or right of Mallow town? .. I assume right to link in with Fermoy/Mitchelstown road.

Reputable Rog

loyatemu wrote: »

what about this (it's about 50KM in a straight line):

(plus a bypass for Mallow).

I'd say a lot of tunelling and rock breaking involved, as well as lot of boglands and a plethora of one off houses. Much more expensive.

marno21

Every time the M20 thread is rewoken there is a discussion on whether the M20 could follow the current route of the R513 to join the M8 and every time it does there is a (done to death) discussion on why it shouldn't. I wish route selection was done already to put this discussion to bed.

You'd think at this stage the people of Cork would have had enough of road projects being done cheaply to save money and having to be redone later (Bandon Rd, Sarsfield Rd and Dunkettle rounabouts for one).

AugustusMinimus

loyatemu wrote: »

what about this (it's about 50KM in a straight line):

(plus a bypass for Mallow).

1. M20 will involve a lot of online build. Blarney to Mallow and The Croom bypass will all be used to facilitate this.
2. Have you ever actually driven from Mitchelstown to Limerick. The terrain is very hilly and is certainly not conducive to motorway building.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the M20 is indeed cheaper. It would also be a hell of a lot more useful.

loyatemu

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The M20 is the cheapest option available. The other scenario explored involved following the N24 to Cahir and connecting with the M8 which would have been significantly more expensive and a bigger engineering project.

what about this (it's about 50KM in a straight line):

(plus a bypass for Mallow).

Calina

Markcheese wrote: »

Always though limerick , cork and Waterford motorways should have met somewhere in tipp - then up to meet up with Galway road and on to Dublin - take of the Dublin centeredness off our road networks -
Is there really a need for a cork limerick motorway anyway ? in terms of population and freight movements - ?
( not saying a serious upgrade isn't required but motorway ?)

If you genuinely believe (1), then your second paragraph applies too. The reason all roads lead to Dublin has a lot to do with the need for population and freight movements to Dublin from the other cities.

What you're proposing in my view is delusional. There is no reason to have a bunch of roads meet in Tipperary for the sake of it "not being Dublin".

In the meantime, if we are going to upgrade surface connections, it would be nice if instead of doing as little as we can get away with, we did them properly.

Motorway from Cork to Limerick has a lot of benefits, not least, removing a certain amount of the Dublin centredness of the road network that you would like to see gone. So why are four roads meeting in Tipp okay but not a connection from two population centres?

irishfeen

Markcheese wrote: »

Always though limerick , cork and Waterford motorways should have met somewhere in tipp - then up to meet up with Galway road and on to Dublin - take of the Dublin centeredness off our road networks -
Is there really a need for a cork limerick motorway anyway ? in terms of population and freight movements - ?
( not saying a serious upgrade isn't required but motorway ?)

:eek: ... are you seriously asking is their need for a motorway between the 2nd and 3rd largest population bases in the state??

Markcheese

Always though limerick , cork and Waterford motorways should have met somewhere in tipp - then up to meet up with Galway road and on to Dublin - take of the Dublin centeredness off our road networks -
Is there really a need for a cork limerick motorway anyway ? in terms of population and freight movements - ?
( not saying a serious upgrade isn't required but motorway ?)

Reputable Rog

spacetweek wrote: »

Ireland has a much more dispersed population than most European countries. Here, motorways are just as much about local traffic as they are for long distance.
The intention isn't to build what's cheapest, it's to build what's right.

Correct, but for some bizzare reason the NRA refuse to see them as anything other than inter city routes.
The NRA are completley against any volume of commuter traffic using the National Primary Road network.

Reputable Rog

lucernarian wrote: »

If we're talking motorways, they're more about linking cities, not small towns and villages. Cork County Council are looking for funding for the Mallow north relief road for instance and also to sort out some of the worst parts of the N20. If that, plus an M8 link-up could be done, could it offer a cheaper yet effective alternative?

The M20 is the cheapest option available. The other scenario explored involved following the N24 to Cahir and connecting with the M8 which would have been significantly more expensive and a bigger engineering project.