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Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?
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http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder
I'd encourage you to pay particular attention to the pieces about heightened levels of anxiety,depression and suicide.Transgender women are also much higher risk of drug and alcohol abuse.
It seems you only care for others' mental health when it suits you, but not the mental wellbeing of the thousands of LGBT people in Ireland today who are at 7x more likely to attempt suicide. It's discrimination and attitudes like those displayed in this thread that causes such harm to young gay people in Ireland today.0 -
Who made that argument?
Saying parents are important doesn't mean they're the only important thing.
The people who are arguing that LGBT parents are incapable of raising children make the argument, and the people that respond to them in the same vein are giving the argument credence when they know already that the argument has no basis in fact.
Instead of pointing out that there are already LGBT people raising children (and not always through adoption either but their own biological children), they try to counter the argument by suggesting that heterosexual parents can be just as poor when it comes to the issue of raising children. I don't think they're helping their own case.0 -
I know several transgender people who are raising kids in this country as it is, and doing a grand job of it too.
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Yes I will!!
I don't vote very often but I will definitely be making the trek home to vote on this wan!!0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »they try to counter the argument by suggesting that heterosexual parents can be just as poor when it comes to the issue of raising children.
Can you point out any examples of posters doing this on this thread?
I mean, saying heterosexual parents can be 'just as poor' parents, as opposed to saying there is no difference between them.0 -
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they'd still have to pass a test. We're not about to let anyone, straight or otherwise, adopt if they are suffering from a severe mental illness.Doctor Jimbob wrote: »Has it occurred to you how much of that is as a result of the way such people are treated by certain sections of society?Anita Blow wrote: »It seems you only care for others' mental health when it suits you, but not the mental wellbeing of the thousands of LGBT people in Ireland today who are at 7x more likely to attempt suicide. It's discrimination and attitudes like those displayed in this thread that causes such harm to young gay people in Ireland today.
The point here is the welfare of the child if transsexual people are allowed,and most here are advocating they should be allowed,adopt children.If this referendum is passed an avenue for this is created.
Most of the pro side here scream for facts and statistics on issues,i have provided you with both.Of course anybody straight,homosexual,trans or the guy who believes in aliens would have to go through screenings and nothing less would be expected.However allowing a social group who have been proven to harbour heightened levels of alcohol and drug abuse,depression and suicide to adopt children would not only be horribly irresponsible but down right criminal.You may think this is an acceptable risk to take but I,and I'd imagine the majority of society,would not.
Just on a side note I have the deepest sympathy with anyone affected by suicide,no matter who they are.0 -
Once again, this referendum is not about adoption.The point here is the welfare of the child if transsexual people are allowed,and most here are advocating they should be allowed,adopt children.If this referendum is passed an avenue for this is created.
Yet you admit people will go through screenings before being allowed to adopt, making all your arguments utterly irrelevant.Most of the pro side here scream for facts and statistics on issues,i have provided you with both.Of course anybody straight,homosexual,trans or the guy who believes in aliens would have to go through screenings and nothing less would be expected.However allowing a social group who have been proven to harbour heightened levels of alcohol and drug abuse,depression and suicide to adopt children would not only be horribly irresponsible but down right criminal.You may think this is an acceptable risk to take but I,and I'd imagine the majority of society,would not.0 -
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder
I'd encourage you to pay particular attention to the pieces about heightened levels of anxiety,depression and suicide.Transgender women are also much higher risk of drug and alcohol abuse.
You do realise that is due to the discrimination, rejection and prejudice they experience, yes? When trans people and other minorities are accepted on equal terms, that tends not to be as much of an issue.
Also, it is increased incidences of those things, it doesn't mean all trans people experience them. If a trans person is suffering from any of those issues, then that will quickly be identified during the assessment process.
If there is no evidence that they have experienced, are experiencing or will experience those issues then there is no reason to disqualify them from parenthood on those grounds.0 -
Can you point out any examples of posters doing this on this thread?
I mean, saying heterosexual parents can be 'just as poor' parents, as opposed to saying there is no difference between them.
The argument is put forward here that LGBT parents shouldn't be parents -Give it another ten years or so and who knows what they will want made legal,there should be no way a transsexual couple could pass the adoption process anyway.
And instead of pointing out that there are LGBT people who are parents already, the counter argument is made that heterosexual parents don't have to pass any test to become parents (implying that there are heterosexual parents who are poor parents) -Why? There's loads of parents out there who'd never pass a parenting test and who have to jump through no hoops to produce children, and no one suggests we should stop them having sex and producing children.
What's it called, a non-sequitur?0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »This isn't necessarily true though, as we've already established that there are no hard and fast set rules for parenting a child (Dr. Spock was popular back in the day, but modern parenting is quite different from what it was only a few decades ago). I would also argue that people being individuals with minds of their own is the very reason why most people who didn't have the greatest parents are still capable of outgrowing that and becoming good parents themselves.
It's too simplistic in my view to say that shìtty parents will fcuk up a child, when the reality is that many people who have become productive and contributing members of society have had shìtty childhoods.
If you were going to argue that parents are important, as if they are the only people that are important in a child's development, then you're playing right into the hands of the people that say "the biological parents are the best parents then", as opposed to putting forward the view that anyone is capable of raising a child, and they don't necessarily have to be the child's parent either. They just have to be good role models for the children.
But that IS the counter-argument used to counter the argument that LGBT people shouldn't be parents. That's why I'm saying it doesn't help. What DOES help though, is explaining that there are LGBT parents already raising children, without drawing comparisons between parents on the basis of their gender or sexuality.
But that's exactly what you were arguing way back in the thread when you pointed out that studies showed that the welfare of children of lesbian parents were better off than the welfare of children of single parents (and you qualified it by saying that this could be explained by the fact that single parents were more likely to be on low incomes).
It just came across to me at least like comparisons were being drawn, and most people aren't going to be able to relate to studies, they're more likely to relate to their real world experiences.
No, this not what i was arguing at all. I made the point that there was no difference whatsoever.
To the extent i referenced the lesbian finding (which I stated was likely an anomaly), it was to show how firmly the results demonstrate the capability of same sex parents. And i didn't refer to single parents at all - opposite sex couples were the comparator.
For some reason, you seem to be going out of your way to find a negative spin on pro-marriage equality posts, or try and construe some negative inference where none is itended.0 -
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The point here is the welfare of the child if transsexual people are allowed,and most here are advocating they should be allowed,adopt children.If this referendum is passed an avenue for this is created.
Most of the pro side here scream for facts and statistics on issues,i have provided you with both.Of course anybody straight,homosexual,trans or the guy who believes in aliens would have to go through screenings and nothing less would be expected.However allowing a social group who have been proven to harbour heightened levels of alcohol and drug abuse,depression and suicide to adopt children would not only be horribly irresponsible but down right criminal.You may think this is an acceptable risk to take but I,and I'd imagine the majority of society,would not.
Just on a side note I have the deepest sympathy with anyone affected by suicide,no matter who they are.
In the US, african Americans are more likely to die young, be incarcerated, be victims of violent crime or murder, be unemployed, or lack a college education.
Do you think that african Americans should be banned from adopting?
Or do you think that all african American couples should be judged on their merits, and the statistics are not a reliable indicator of results in an individual case.0 -
No, this not what i was arguing at all. I made the point that there was no difference whatsoever.
I'm on the touch site at the moment so I can't really go back to the exact post where you quoted the stats, but you made the point that there was no difference at all, and then went on to say about lesbian couples and single parents.To the extent i referenced the lesbian finding (which I stated was likely an anomaly), it was to show how firmly the results demonstrate the capability of same sex parents. And i didn't refer to single parents at all - opposite sex couples were the comparator.
I think if you go back and look at the post, you did, which is why I remembered it so clearly, was because I didn't particularly agree with it, but I let it go rather than getting picky about it at the time.For some reason, you seem to be going out of your way to find a negative spin on pro-marriage equality posts, or try and construe some negative inference where none is itended.
With all due respect, I think you're trying to construe a negative influence in my posts where there is none intended, and if you go back over my posts in this thread, I have argued consistently that this should be a positive campaign that rather than taking swipes at other people and making comparisons to other groups in society should be promoting all the positives of LGBT people and arguing commonalities rather than constantly taking the bait and going on the attack and giving a negative perception of LGBT people that certainly doesn't square with my experience of LGBT people who are no different from myself.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »This isn't necessarily true though, as we've already established that there are no hard and fast set rules for parenting a child (Dr. Spock was popular back in the day, but modern parenting is quite different from what it was only a few decades ago). I would also argue that people being individuals with minds of their own is the very reason why most people who didn't have the greatest parents are still capable of outgrowing that and becoming good parents themselves.
It's too simplistic in my view to say that shìtty parents will fcuk up a child, when the reality is that many people who have become productive and contributing members of society have had shìtty childhoods.
If you were going to argue that parents are important, as if they are the only people that are important in a child's development, then you're playing right into the hands of the people that say "the biological parents are the best parents then", as opposed to putting forward the view that anyone is capable of raising a child, and they don't necessarily have to be the child's parent either. They just have to be good role models for the children.
Good parents can be of any gender, race etc. Being gay does not make a sh1tty parent. Being abusive or unloving does make a sh1tty parent. And it's the single biggest contributing factor in a childs development. This isn't some Freudian mumbo jumbo. Every developmental psychologist since piaget has agreed on this.
That doesn't mean that there aren't external factors that can affect a child. 1/4 of children who are abused turn into abusers for example. However if we exclude the weird random unpredictable stuff, the main influence on a child is their parents.
And Gay/lesbian parents are just as good/bad as straight people.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »The argument is put forward here that LGBT parents shouldn't be parents -
And instead of pointing out that there are LGBT people who are parents already, the counter argument is made that heterosexual parents don't have to pass any test to become parents (implying that there are heterosexual parents who are poor parents) -
What's it called, a non-sequitur?
The argument being made is really one based on the supposed inferiority or prejudicial nature of lgbt parents.
A proper response to that argument would be multi-pronged. The existence of lgbt families and the need to protect them is an important point to make (and one that has previously been made).
It is however also necessary to dispel the myth that lgbt parents are automatically bad parents, or that heterosexual parents automatically make better parents.
Otherwise, they would likely to simply lament the existence of LGBT parents as they would see it as a bad thing. You need to be able to point to the results of LGBT parenting - which like it or not is studies. We could point to anecdotal evidence but we all know the problem with that.
Therefore, I'm again puzzled why you criticise the responses which seek to show opposite sex parents are a requirement for proper child raising or guarantee any particular result.
Yes, it may only an incomplete response, but no more so than your own proposed response. But it is an necessary component of a comprehensive response and it in no way undermines the position being argued.
Again, I'm puzzled by the way you approach this issue. You seem to have determined how the debate should be conducted on behalf of the equality campaign and see any derogation from your supposed ideal as a failure by the equality advocates to properly comport themselves or as letting themselves down.0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I'm on the touch site at the moment so I can't really go back to the exact post where you quoted the stats, but you made the point that there was no difference at all, and then went on to say about lesbian couples and single parents.
I think if you go back and look at the post, you did, which is why I remembered it so clearly, was because I didn't particularly agree with it, but I let it go rather than getting picky about it at the time.
With all due respect, I think you're trying to construe a negative influence in my posts where there is none intended, and if you go back over my posts in this thread, I have argued consistently that this should be a positive campaign that rather than taking swipes at other people and making comparisons to other groups in society should be promoting all the positives of LGBT people and arguing commonalities rather than constantly taking the bait and going on the attack and giving a negative perception of LGBT people that certainly doesn't square with my experience of LGBT people who are no different from myself.
Em..Actually, all things being equal "traditional marriage" is no better or worse than stable, two parent same sex households*
*there may actually have been one study that said lesbian couples were better at raising kids than straight couples, by the difference was small and so could well have been an anomaly.0 -
Em..
I sincerely apologise floggg, I confused your posts with Grayson's -I went looking for stats on this ages ago and found that they were slightly better off. mainly it's down to income. Gay couples who adopt generally earn more than the average family.
Incidentally single parents fared the worst but only because of low incomes. If you compared single parents with high wages, the difference was negligible.0 -
You do realise that is due to the discrimination, rejection and prejudice they experience, yes? When trans people and other minorities are accepted on equal terms, that tends not to be as much of an issue.
Also, it is increased incidences of those things, it doesn't mean all trans people experience them. If a trans person is suffering from any of those issues, then that will quickly be identified during the assessment process.
If there is no evidence that they have experienced, are experiencing or will experience those issues then there is no reason to disqualify them from parenthood on those grounds.
I'm not talking about and I don't know why these people suffer from these disorders,but there is a hugely elevated risk of them suffering from them and if this referendum is passed then this is a clear and present danger.If,where children are concerned,even if one couple slip through the net is that not one too many?Do you feel a childs welfare is worth that risk just for some form of perceived equality?
And as for being quickly identified,Ireland has a track record for failing children on all levels and that's with people deemed to be a much less risk than transsexuals.A statement like that is quite flippant when so much is at risk.In the US, african Americans are more likely to die young, be incarcerated, be victims of violent crime or murder, be unemployed, or lack a college education.
Do you think that african Americans should be banned from adopting?
Or do you think that all african American couples should be judged on their merits, and the statistics are not a reliable indicator of results in an individual case.
I live in Ireland,not America,and this will affect Irish children.I really don't see the logical basis for your argument here.How does an African American person who may have a lower life expectancy,jail record,experienced crime,no job or poor education relate to a transsexual couple in Ireland who,statically speaking,have a very elevated risk of suffering from severe mental disorders including suicide,and drug and alcohol abuse problems? This is the environment you wish children to be in.0 -
I'm not talking about and I don't know why these people suffer from these disorders,but there is a hugely elevated risk of them suffering from them and if this referendum is passed then this is a clear and present danger.If,where children are concerned,even if one couple slip through the net is that not one too many?Do you feel a childs welfare is worth that risk just for some form of perceived equality?
And as for being quickly identified,Ireland has a track record for failing children on all levels and that's with people deemed to be a much less risk than transsexuals.A statement like that is quite flippant when so much is at risk.
I live in Ireland,not America,and this will affect Irish children.I really don't see the logical basis for your argument here.How does an African American person who may have a lower life expectancy,jail record,experienced crime,no job or poor education relate to a transsexual couple in Ireland who,statically speaking,have a very elevated risk of suffering from severe mental disorders including suicide,and drug and alcohol abuse problems? This is the environment you wish children to be in.
For the 562nd time same sex couples will be able to adopt whether or not this gets a yes vote. What part of this are you having so much difficulty understanding?0 -
At a guess ,all of itDoctor Jimbob wrote: »What part of this are you having so much difficulty understanding?
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I'm not talking about and I don't know why these people suffer from these disorders,but there is a hugely elevated risk of them suffering from them and if this referendum is passed then this is a clear and present danger.If,where children are concerned,even if one couple slip through the net is that not one too many?Do you feel a childs welfare is worth that risk just for some form of perceived equality?
And as for being quickly identified,Ireland has a track record for failing children on all levels and that's with people deemed to be a much less risk than transsexuals.A statement like that is quite flippant when so much is at risk.
I live in Ireland,not America,and this will affect Irish children.I really don't see the logical basis for your argument here.How does an African American person who may have a lower life expectancy,jail record,experienced crime,no job or poor education relate to a transsexual couple in Ireland who,statically speaking,have a very elevated risk of suffering from severe mental disorders including suicide,and drug and alcohol abuse problems? This is the environment you wish children to be in.
As I pointed out already, young Irish LGBT people currently suffer from significantly increased mental health problems due to the pressure society places on them. A young Irish gay person is 7 times more likely to attempt suicide than a heterosexual person. Where's your concern for these people? This is a cold hard fact happening in Ireland today, in comparison to you bandying about what people may suffer in the future.
Surely if you actually cared about the mental welfare of young people you would hope to end the ongoing discrimination which is causing so many mental problems to LGBT youth at present?
In terms of the affect on the upbringing of children, best evidence says there are no adverse outcomes. In fact, the American Academy of Paediatrics & the American Psychological Association both support Same-sex Marriage & upbringing of children. The American Academy of Paediatrics concludes
http://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/Pages/American-Academy-of-Pediatrics-Supports-Same-Gender-Civil-Marriage.aspx#sthash.87JzgDei.dpufA great deal of scientific research documents there is no cause-and-effect relationship between parents’ sexual orientation and children’s well-being, according to the AAP policy. In fact, many studies attest to the normal development of children of same-gender couples when the child is wanted, the parents have a commitment to shared parenting, and the parents have strong social and economic support. Critical factors that affect the normal development and mental health of children are parental stress, economic and social stability, community resources, discrimination, and children’s exposure to toxic stressors at home or in their communities -- not the sexual orientation of their parents. - See more at:0 -
I'm not talking about and I don't know why these people suffer from these disorders,but there is a hugely elevated risk of them suffering from them and if this referendum is passed then this is a clear and present danger..
What do you mean by this? can you expand?It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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The point here is the welfare of the child if transsexual people are allowed
What does that even mean? You appear to be talking in some sort abstract non world where trans people have been dehumanised and treated like aliens. You seem to think that trans people can't have relationships and can't have children. Guess what - They do. My neighbour across the road is a trans woman and she has children. I have other trans friends who are all parents. My other neighbour is a young trans man. When he came out as trans at the age of 17 his parents were hugely supportive. I feel genuinely really sorry and sad for you that your feelings against trans people consume you so much that you seek to dehumanise people who are trans and deny them basic human rights and happiness.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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I'm not talking about and I don't know why these people suffer from these disorders,but there is a hugely elevated risk of them suffering from them and if this referendum is passed then this is a clear and present danger.If,where children are concerned,even if one couple slip through the net is that not one too many?Do you feel a childs welfare is worth that risk just for some form of perceived equality?
And as for being quickly identified,Ireland has a track record for failing children on all levels and that's with people deemed to be a much less risk than transsexuals.A statement like that is quite flippant when so much is at risk.
I live in Ireland,not America,and this will affect Irish children.I really don't see the logical basis for your argument here.How does an African American person who may have a lower life expectancy,jail record,experienced crime,no job or poor education relate to a transsexual couple in Ireland who,statically speaking,have a very elevated risk of suffering from severe mental disorders including suicide,and drug and alcohol abuse problems? This is the environment you wish children to be in.
Would you give it a rest , all this flailing around trying to justify your prejudice is pathetic. Anybody who wishes to adopt is heavily scrutinised and vetted.0 -
Wikipedia have a good link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
For the last 10 years or so the turnout for these votes was between around 35% to 60%. An example of a higher turnout was Michael McDowell's citizenship referendum which passed with ease
You need to go back to the early 90's for a turnout that approached 70%
Any predictions on the turnout for this vote? Will it crack 50%?0 -
Joeytheparrot wrote: »What do you mean by this? can you expand?
ok Joey,just for you.As we sit here now in 2014 the law states that only married couples may apply and be accepted for adoption,transgender couple may not apply.If this referendum is passed then transgender couples can legally be seen as married in the eyes of the law,thus may apply for adoption as a married couple.I'm not talking about any bills that may or may not be passed or may or may not include clarification on this matter,that is guess work and I'm concentrating on the facts.
Transgender people are statistically proven to suffer from highly elevated levels of depression,self harm and drug and alcohol abuse.With Irelands long running history of failing our children do you feel this would be an acceptable risk?Joeytheparrot wrote: »What does that even mean? You appear to be talking in some sort abstract non world where trans people have been dehumanised and treated like aliens. You seem to think that trans people can't have relationships and can't have children. Guess what - They do. My neighbour across the road is a trans woman and she has children. I have other trans friends who are all parents. My other neighbour is a young trans man. When he came out as trans at the age of 17 his parents were hugely supportive. I feel genuinely really sorry and sad for you that your feelings against trans people consume you so much that you seek to dehumanise people who are trans and deny them basic human rights and happiness.
I'm merely speaking on the back of proven studies and factual conclusions here.You cant play the "dehumanising" card everytime an issue arises,beware the boy who cried wolf.Where have I spoken about dehumanising people or taking rights here?People don't have the right,straight or gay,to adoption without complete and utter scrutiny.0 -
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Transgender people are statistically proven to suffer from highly elevated levels of depression,self harm and drug and alcohol abuse.With Irelands long running history of failing our children do you feel this would be an acceptable risk?
. . . . Where have I spoken about dehumanising people or taking rights here?
When you judge people's fitness on the basis of statistics around gender, race, ethnicity, marital status or disability you are dehumanising them and discriminating.
People in the midlands of Ireland have higher rates of mental illness than those in coastal counties. Should they be forbidden from adopting, because by your logic it places children at increased risk?
In fact people in Scandinavian countries have higher incidence of mental disorder than those in western Europe. Should we seek to stop Norwegians from adopting?I understand that throughout your day you cant be who you are because,for whatever reasons,society in the majority deems your lifestyle to be inappropriate.
It seems to me that your personal dislike of the LGBT community has clouded your ability to see a bigger picture? We live in a country that imposes constitutional restrictions on basic human rights, and that is a human wrong.
Perhaps if you were to consider the question of the same-sex marriage referendum as an issue in its own right, rather than trying to link it to fitness of same-sex couples to adopt you could be more illuminating in the discussions here? The issue of fitness to adopt is best dealt with on a case-by-case basis rather than trying to impose sweeping generalisations into our constitution.0 -
ok Joey,just for you.As we sit here now in 2014 the law states that only married couples may apply and be accepted for adoption,transgender couple may not apply.If this referendum is passed then transgender couples can legally be seen as married in the eyes of the law,thus may apply for adoption as a married couple.I'm not talking about any bills that may or may not be passed or may or may not include clarification on this matter,that is guess work and I'm concentrating on the facts.
Transgender people are statistically proven to suffer from highly elevated levels of depression,self harm and drug and alcohol abuse.With Irelands long running history of failing our children do you feel this would be an acceptable risk?
I'm merely speaking on the back of proven studies and factual conclusions here.You cant play the "dehumanising" card everytime an issue arises,beware the boy who cried wolf.Where have I spoken about dehumanising people or taking rights here?People don't have the right,straight or gay,to adoption without complete and utter scrutiny.
I have no idea what a transgender couple is. I do actually genuinely feel sorry for you that your obsession against trans people is so lacking in humanity. You speak about trans people as abstract objects. I speak about them as human beings.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »I have no idea what a transgender couple is. I do actually genuinely feel sorry for you that your obsession against trans people is so lacking in humanity. You speak about trans people as abstract objects. I speak about them as human beings.
Once again more existing parents that Fran wishes to not be parents. Also, depression and substance abuse are issues that plenty of parents have dealt regardless of orientation or gender transitions etc. Ostracising people as incapable parents based on being transgender or for being of a different sexual orientation is particularly warped.0
This discussion has been closed.
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