Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

Doctor Jimbob · 23-12-2014 4:03pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How can you vote 'yes' or 'no' based on wording you haven't even seen yet? That's my point - as much as I'm an advocate for marriage equality, I'd like to see what I'm being asked to vote on first before I make my decision so that we're not left in some legal quagmire 20 years from now.

I think most people are operating under the assumption that it's going to be a simple yes or no to marriage equality. Obviously if this changes closer to the time it could change things, but I think for now it's a reasonable assumption to make.

tayto lover · 23-12-2014 4:06pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

How can you vote 'yes' or 'no' based on wording you haven't even seen yet? That's my point - as much as I'm an advocate for marriage equality, I'd like to see what I'm being asked to vote on first before I make my decision so that we're not left in some legal quagmire 20 years from now.

The wording could certainly cause problems.
Needs to be just a simple Yes or No to SSM marriage.

Doctor Jimbob · 23-12-2014 4:06pm

From the link you posted: "This means that if you are living with a same-sex or opposite-sex partner, you may apply to the Authority to adopt a child in your own right, intending to raise the child with your partner. However, your partner would have no legal rights in relation to the child. The fact you are in a relationship is relevant only when evaluating circumstances that might affect the child's welfare"

Edit: Quoted post ninja deleted.

keeponhurling · 23-12-2014 4:08pm

So somebody makes a point that they are concerned how any new legislation might affect children.

Daith comes back with some false information.
Gonzalez comes back with some snide remarks about Christianity.

Good debate here:pac:

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:09pm

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Bulls**t thank God!

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/cohabiting_couples/adoption_and_unmarried_couples.html

The Minister continued: “The proposals enabling civil partners to adopt children jointly were welcomed when this Scheme was originally published. I am now providing for cohabiting couples, living together for 3 years in a committed relationship, to be eligible to adopt children jointly.”

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR14000257

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:09pm

keeponhurling wrote: »

Daith comes back with some false information.

What false information?

This referendum will have no bearing on gay couples adopting children. How about you give out to the No side for not realizing this?

Doctor Jimbob · 23-12-2014 4:10pm

keeponhurling wrote: »

So somebody makes a point that they are concerned how any new legislation might affect children.

Daith comes back with some false information.
Gonzalez comes back with some snide remarks about Christianity.

Good debate here:pac:

In fairness the claims that it will affect children have been addressed multiple times in this thread already. It won't. At all. Simple as that. I get that snide remarks don't help but it does get tiresome having to refute the same incorrect claims from the same posters over and over.

eyescreamcone · 23-12-2014 4:10pm

Anyone like to bet the Iona-ists are lobbying hard to muddy the water with the actual question to be put to the voters?

It's good that Lucinda et al are not in power.

Nice job dumping those "conscience voters" before this referendum!!!

Doctor Jimbob · 23-12-2014 4:11pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Anyone like to bet the Iona-ists are lobbying hard to muddy the water with the actual question to be put to the voters?

It's good that Lucinda et al are not in power.

Nice job dumping those "conscience voters" before this referendum!!!

Bet? They're already on here making vague reference to children and mysterious 'consequences' that have yet to be defined.

keeponhurling · 23-12-2014 4:14pm

Daith wrote: »

What false information?

Misleading then, or craftily worded.

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:15pm

keeponhurling wrote: »

Misleading then, or craftily worded.

Sorry, can you give me an actual example?

eyescreamcone · 23-12-2014 4:15pm

keeponhurling wrote: »

Misleading then, or craftily worded.

And lies!!!

B_Wayne · 23-12-2014 4:17pm

fran17 wrote: »

Yes you see what is quite evident here that every now and then the mask slips and the true feelings and beliefs of people such as this one surfaces.

I would highly recommend that this person,not all people,work on his own life and issues before attempting to become a parent as he wishes to do.There probably are some gay couples out there who would make fine parents and that should be dealt with on a case by case basis.However in the case of the average,garden variety type I believe opening up this to all would be a social and civic calamity.
As our law currently stands a couple must be married to make an application to adopt a child and if this referendum is passed then Pandora's box is opened and the people of Ireland need to think long and hard about this.There is far more involved here than marriage.

Adoption issues will be sorted prior to any referendum because one's sexual orientation doesn't impact upon parenting ability. So you're not actually voting on anything related to adoption.

Doctor Jimbob · 23-12-2014 4:19pm

B_Wayne wrote: »

Adoption issues will be sorted prior to any referendum because one's sexual orientation doesn't impact upon parenting ability. So you're not actually voting on anything related to adoption.

I'd hazard a guess that he's perfectly aware of this.

fran17 · 23-12-2014 4:20pm

Daith wrote: »

No the ability of gay couples to adopt has nothing to do with this referendum. It has been explained dozens of times already.

If the referendum fails, gay couples will still be able to adopt

The only question is whether two people regardless of sexuality can marry.

Why must the yes side persist in untruths.Our law as stated requires for a couple to be legally married to make an application for adoption.A gay couple cannot make an application however if this referendum is passed then a gay couple can legally marry thus an application for adoption of a child can be made.Those are the facts.

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:20pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that he's perfectly aware of this.

Yet it's an example of what the debate will be like where the focus will be on children despite all of this.

kylith · 23-12-2014 4:21pm

fran17 wrote: »

As our law currently stands a couple must be married to make an application to adopt a child and if this referendum is passed then Pandora's box is opened and the people of Ireland need to think long and hard about this.There is far more involved here than marriage.

That is untrue. Single people can adopt by themselves. Gay people can already adopt. Single gay people can adopt. NO unmarried couples are allowed to adopt regardless of sexual orientation.

This referendum will not effect adoptions in any way, shape or form, other than allowing married gay people to adopt as a couple.

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:21pm

fran17 wrote: »

Why must the yes side persist in untruths.Our law as stated requires for a couple to be legally married to make an application for adoption.A gay couple cannot make an application however if this referendum is passed then a gay couple can legally marry thus an application for adoption of a child can be made.Those are the facts.

As stated yes but it will not be the referendum that changes it. It will be the Children and Family Bill.

Couples who are in a civil partnership will be able to adopt.

I would suggest you read up on it more at it seems to be a big concern of yours

http://www.thejournal.ie/child-and-family-relationship-bill-1690019-Sep2014/

Doctor Jimbob · 23-12-2014 4:23pm

fran17 wrote: »

Why must the yes side persist in untruths.Our law as stated requires for a couple to be legally married to make an application for adoption.A gay couple cannot make an application however if this referendum is passed then a gay couple can legally marry thus an application for adoption of a child can be made.Those are the facts.

'Untruths' in this case having the unique definition of 'truths that I don't like'.

fran17 · 23-12-2014 4:27pm

kylith wrote: »

That is untrue. Single people can adopt by themselves. Gay people can already adopt. Single gay people can adopt. NO unmarried couples are allowed to adopt regardless of sexual orientation.

This referendum will not effect adoptions in any way, shape or form, other than allowing married gay people to adopt as a couple.

So in a roundabout way what I said is true.

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:29pm

fran17 wrote: »

So in a roundabout way what I said is true.

Only that it's not because if the referendum fails, civil partnered couples will still be able to adopt.

The Children and Family Bill as I said is what you need to read up on.

CiDeRmAn · 23-12-2014 4:37pm

I look forward to this vote and the opportunity to support my fellow citizens.
These rights are a benefit to all.
So many countries around the world are failing to support the rights of all of their citizens, including minorities, and a vote in this is a show of support for an inclusive Ireland.
You say it doesn't affect you because you aren't gay?
What about your extended family, what about those who see their sexual orientation being described as something other than mainstream and therefore to be hidden, in shame.
These are people who should be supported, as having the same rights as the rest of the "normal" citizens of the country.

People should stop hiding their intolerance behind a defence of the institution of marriage as well, it's simply beyond belief that a heterosexual marriage could be under threat, in any way, by gay marriage.
We heard the same nonsense during the divorce referendum.

One eyed Jack · 23-12-2014 4:37pm

Daith wrote: »

As stated yes but it will not be the referendum that changes it. It will be the Children and Family Bill.

Couples who are in a civil partnership will be able to adopt.

I would suggest you read up on it more at it seems to be a big concern of yours

http://www.thejournal.ie/child-and-family-relationship-bill-1690019-Sep2014/

See that right there? That's why I'm saying that the Government have gone arse about face in putting the children and families bill before the referendum, and that's why I'm saying I will be careful in how I approach any referendum question, because it won't be worded as a simple 'yes' or 'no', just like the divorce referendum wasn't worded as a simple 'yes' or 'no', just like the abortion referendum wasn't worded as a simple 'yes' or 'no'.

Isn't the whole reason why marriage equality is so important is because there are over 160 differences between civil partnership, and civil marriage?

Are you still convinced that if this referendum fails it will have no effect on children?

Like I said from the beginning, this referendum affects everyone in society, so that's why it's so important that we consider as many people as possible and not be so dismissive of people just because they aren't middle class LGBT adults who aren't thinking of anyone but themselves.

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:39pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Are you still convinced that if this referendum fails it will have no effect on children?

What effects will it have?

We already have effects on children being raised by two same sex parents but the law only recognizes one parent. Do you want this to be put to popular vote?

There are plenty of children in "non-traditional" families that need the same rights as other children.

shruikan2553 · 23-12-2014 4:42pm

fran17 wrote: »

Why must the yes side persist in untruths.Our law as stated requires for a couple to be legally married to make an application for adoption.A gay couple cannot make an application however if this referendum is passed then a gay couple can legally marry thus an application for adoption of a child can be made.Those are the facts.

Untruths? This is coming from the same person who claims the majority are against SSM and ignores anything to show they are wrong?

You're joking right?

fran17 · 23-12-2014 4:50pm

Daith wrote: »

As stated yes but it will not be the referendum that changes it. It will be the Children and Family Bill.

Couples who are in a civil partnership will be able to adopt.

I would suggest you read up on it more at it seems to be a big concern of yours

http://www.thejournal.ie/child-and-family-relationship-bill-1690019-Sep2014/

Right so the brainchild of Alan Shatter has been shelved and now minister Fitzgerald expects it soon...So in summery,there is doubts about sections of this bill regarding homosexuals so this referendum is plan B.Just say that then.

Daith · 23-12-2014 4:51pm

fran17 wrote: »

Right so the brainchild of Alan Shatter has been shelved and now minister Fitzgerald expects it soon...So in summery,there is doubts about sections of this bill regarding homosexuals so this referendum is plan B.Just say that then.

How about you admit you're wrong and the referendum will not be about gay couples adopting children?

Doctor Jimbob · 23-12-2014 4:51pm

fran17 wrote: »

Right so the brainchild of Alan Shatter has been shelved and now minister Fitzgerald expects it soon...So in summery,there is doubts about sections of this bill regarding homosexuals so this referendum is plan B.Just say that then.

But saying that would be untrue and a complete distortion of the facts.

One eyed Jack · 23-12-2014 4:58pm

Daith wrote: »

What effects will it have?

We already have effects on children being raised by two same sex parents but the law only recognizes one parent. Do you want this to be put to popular vote?

There are plenty of children in "non-traditional" families that need the same rights as other children.

Thanks for making my points for me, I was just going to go with their parents are in a civil partnership for a start, which already defines their relationship to their parents as different from the relationship between other children and their married parents, and if the referendum is passed, that does away with one stigmatising label at least.

I'd rather it didn't have to be put to a popular vote, but I had just assumed previous Governments were just too chickenshìt to legislate for it, but as lazygal pointed out way, way back in the thread - if the Government had simply legislated for marriage equality, it would be challenged constantly by some those advocating for a 'no' vote in the upcoming referendum.

I advocate for the rights of children in non-traditional families too btw, not like there's a shortage of children who are currently ignored by the current wording of the Constitution and legislation, but what this thread is about is the rights of children in LGBT marriages, or what are currently civil partnerships, if that's the way it was to remain if this referendum fails.

Daith · 23-12-2014 5:01pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

but what this thread is about is the rights of children in LGBT marriages, or what are currently civil partnerships, if that's the way it was to remain if this referendum fails.

No this thread is about whether you're going to vote in the referendum.

The rights of children is separate and needs to be looked at regardless of the referendum.

Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

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