Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

Daith · 24-12-2014 1:00pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why not? Do you personally check every straight couples suitability for being a parent?

robinph · 24-12-2014 1:01pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Your going to have to explain your reasons for why not.

lazygal · 24-12-2014 1:04pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Why? There's loads of parents out there who'd never pass a parenting test and who have to jump through no hoops to produce children, and no one suggests we should stop them having sex and producing children.

Doctor Jimbob · 24-12-2014 1:05pm

robinph wrote: »

Your going to have to explain your reasons for why not.

Because consequences and reasons and slippery slopes (undefined).

darced · 24-12-2014 1:09pm

This post has been deleted.

Grayson · 24-12-2014 1:09pm

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

Most Catholics in Ireland have no problem with gay people. Religion is not always incompatible with being gay/lesbian.

Now the church (catholic) is not always so welcoming. I've heard of some priests who are ok with it and pretty much ignore it. I also know of certain churches/congregations that are specifically created for gay/lesbians.

The bible barely mentions homosexuality. The bits that do are generally Leviticus/old testament. Most of the rules there are ignored so it's actually strange the some people use it as justification.

VinLieger · 24-12-2014 1:11pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What would you deem unsuitable about transexuals adopting?

robinph · 24-12-2014 1:13pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

What parenting skills does a straight couple have that others don't?

darced · 24-12-2014 1:17pm

This post has been deleted.

Daith · 24-12-2014 1:19pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

So any man and woman will always be great parents? Cos you know that's rubbish.

Pat D. Almighty · 24-12-2014 1:19pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's not a skill. It's a biological coincidence.

CiDeRmAn · 24-12-2014 1:20pm

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

I suppose it's the difference between having a spiritual awareness, a belief in God, and the need to be part of the institution of The Church, whatever that religion might be.

Grayson · 24-12-2014 1:26pm

Pat D. Almighty wrote: »

That's not a skill. It's a biological coincidence.

Thomas Aquinas believed that a man was necessary in a family. He thought a woman couldn't raise a child by herself. The reason was that a woman wasn't physically strong enough to beat a child.

He'd obviously never seen an Irish mammy with a wooden spoon.

robinph · 24-12-2014 1:26pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That is not a qualification to do with being a good parent, that is just a description of the gender of a couple of people.

What skills are needed to be good parents? Where are these skills taught? Who determines who is qualified to be a parent of any child?

floggg · 24-12-2014 1:29pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

He asked what skills. Not what are they.

Doctor Jimbob · 24-12-2014 1:36pm

Grayson wrote: »

The bible barely mentions homosexuality. The bits that do are generally Leviticus/old testament. Most of the rules there are ignored so it's actually strange the some people use it as justification.

Very true.

This bit is key. Religion isn't the problem, people using it as an excuse for their hatred is. If religion wasn't around they would probably find other excuses.

Doctor Jimbob · 24-12-2014 1:37pm

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Being is a man is a skill? Yay, I'm skilled at something

One eyed Jack · 24-12-2014 1:43pm

lazygal wrote: »

Why? There's loads of parents out there who'd never pass a parenting test and who have to jump through no hoops to produce children, and no one suggests we should stop them having sex and producing children.

You really don't spend much time in After Hours, do you?

My own personal opinion is that children aren't just influenced by their parent(s) alone. I'm certainly not aware of anyone that was ever raised in a bubble where the only person or people they came in contact with was their parent or parents (biological or otherwise), so this notion of who makes "better" parents really isn't all that matters when it comes to a child's development. I don't think there's much to be gained by arguing that "heterosexual parents can be shìtty parents too" like LGBT parents are somehow "better" if we're trying to make the point that there's no difference between people in respect of their ability to raise a child.

Grayson · 24-12-2014 1:44pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Very true.

This bit is key. Religion isn't the problem, people using it as an excuse for their hatred is. If religion wasn't around they would probably find other excuses.

Yeah!. Although some of the rules there might have made sense 3000 years ago (Some not all) most don't have a place in our world. Like stoning adulterers or making menstruating women stay indoors. When we find someone who follows that kind of crap (like ISIS) we rightly decry them as being nutjobs. An aversion to homosexuality is the only bit that seems to have carried on.

Grayson · 24-12-2014 1:46pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You really don't spend much time in After Hours, do you?

My own personal opinion is that children aren't just influenced by their parent(s) alone. I'm certainly not aware of anyone that was ever raised in a bubble where the only person or people they came in contact with was their parent or parents (biological or otherwise), so this notion of who makes "better" parents really isn't all that matters when it comes to a child's development. I don't think there's much to be gained by arguing that "heterosexual parents can be shìtty parents too" like LGBT parents are somehow "better" if we're trying to make the point that there's no difference between people in respect of their ability to raise a child.

parents are pretty important. ****ty parents will fcuk up a child.

However every study done has found no difference in the welfare or development of a child if their parents are gay.

Doctor Jimbob · 24-12-2014 1:49pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You really don't spend much time in After Hours, do you?

My own personal opinion is that children aren't just influenced by their parent(s) alone. I'm certainly not aware of anyone that was ever raised in a bubble where the only person or people they came in contact with was their parent or parents (biological or otherwise), so this notion of who makes "better" parents really isn't all that matters when it comes to a child's development. I don't think there's much to be gained by arguing that "heterosexual parents can be shìtty parents too" like LGBT parents are somehow "better" if we're trying to make the point that there's no difference between people in respect of their ability to raise a child.

That isn't the argument being made though. The argument is that people can be good or bad parents regardless of sexual orientation or gender.

eviltwin · 24-12-2014 1:54pm

Funny how the right bring out the whole parents issue when they are trying to find a reason to be against same sex marriage. These are the same people though who think adoption is a credible solution to unplanned pregnancy. Either a child needs to know its mother and father or it doesn't. Which is is. I would imagine for a lot of gay couples the other parent is present in the child's life in some capacity too.

floggg · 24-12-2014 2:03pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You really don't spend much time in After Hours, do you?

My own personal opinion is that children aren't just influenced by their parent(s) alone. I'm certainly not aware of anyone that was ever raised in a bubble where the only person or people they came in contact with was their parent or parents (biological or otherwise), so this notion of who makes "better" parents really isn't all that matters when it comes to a child's development. I don't think there's much to be gained by arguing that "heterosexual parents can be shìtty parents too" like LGBT parents are somehow "better" if we're trying to make the point that there's no difference between people in respect of their ability to raise a child.

I don't think people are (or at least they shouldn't be) arguing that one group is better or worse by comparison. I think they are simply disproving the notion that being a heterosexual couple is what it takes to be good parents, or that it is what's needed to raise a child.

fran17 · 24-12-2014 2:14pm

robinph wrote: »

Your going to have to explain your reasons for why not.

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder

I'd encourage you to pay particular attention to the pieces about heightened levels of anxiety,depression and suicide.Transgender women are also much higher risk of drug and alcohol abuse.

Grayson · 24-12-2014 2:17pm

fran17 wrote: »

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder

I'd encourage you to pay particular attention to the pieces about heightened levels of anxiety,depression and suicide.Transgender women are also much higher risk of drug and alcohol abuse.

they'd still have to pass a test. We're not about to let anyone, straight or otherwise, adopt if they are suffering from a severe mental illness.

Nodin · 24-12-2014 2:19pm

fran17 wrote: »

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder

I'd encourage you to pay particular attention to the pieces about heightened levels of anxiety,depression and suicide.Transgender women are also much higher risk of drug and alcohol abuse.

And your reasons for objecting to gay couples marrying?

One eyed Jack · 24-12-2014 2:32pm

Grayson wrote: »

parents are pretty important. ****ty parents will fcuk up a child.

This isn't necessarily true though, as we've already established that there are no hard and fast set rules for parenting a child (Dr. Spock was popular back in the day, but modern parenting is quite different from what it was only a few decades ago). I would also argue that people being individuals with minds of their own is the very reason why most people who didn't have the greatest parents are still capable of outgrowing that and becoming good parents themselves.

It's too simplistic in my view to say that shìtty parents will fcuk up a child, when the reality is that many people who have become productive and contributing members of society have had shìtty childhoods.

If you were going to argue that parents are important, as if they are the only people that are important in a child's development, then you're playing right into the hands of the people that say "the biological parents are the best parents then", as opposed to putting forward the view that anyone is capable of raising a child, and they don't necessarily have to be the child's parent either. They just have to be good role models for the children.

However every study done has found no difference in the welfare or development of a child if their parents are gay.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

That isn't the argument being made though. The argument is that people can be good or bad parents regardless of sexual orientation or gender.

But that IS the counter-argument used to counter the argument that LGBT people shouldn't be parents. That's why I'm saying it doesn't help. What DOES help though, is explaining that there are LGBT parents already raising children, without drawing comparisons between parents on the basis of their gender or sexuality.

floggg wrote: »

I don't think people are (or at least they shouldn't be) arguing that one group is better or worse by comparison. I think they are simply disproving the notion that being a heterosexual couple is what it takes to be good parents, or that it is what's needed to raise a child.

But that's exactly what you were arguing way back in the thread when you pointed out that studies showed that the welfare of children of lesbian parents were better off than the welfare of children of single parents (and you qualified it by saying that this could be explained by the fact that single parents were more likely to be on low incomes).

It just came across to me at least like comparisons were being drawn, and most people aren't going to be able to relate to studies, they're more likely to relate to their real world experiences.

floggg · 24-12-2014 2:33pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Funny how the right bring out the whole parents issue when they are trying to find a reason to be against same sex marriage. These are the same people though who think adoption is a credible solution to unplanned pregnancy. Either a child needs to know its mother and father or it doesn't. Which is is. I would imagine for a lot of gay couples the other parent is present in the child's life in some capacity too.

The absurd thing about that "every child deserves their mother and father" argument is that they seem to be under the impression that if gay couples can adopt, children will just be snatched from their parents and given to the gay couples.

In reality, the children concerned will likely never get to know their parents regardless of who adopts them. Their supposed ideal is never an option for the children concerned, so why is that ideal a supposed impediment to adoption by sex couples.

osarusan · 24-12-2014 2:37pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If you were going to argue that parents are important, as if they are the only people that are important in a child's development,

Who made that argument?

Saying parents are important doesn't mean they're the only important thing.

Doctor Jimbob · 24-12-2014 2:42pm

fran17 wrote: »

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder

I'd encourage you to pay particular attention to the pieces about heightened levels of anxiety,depression and suicide.Transgender women are also much higher risk of drug and alcohol abuse.

Has it occurred to you how much of that is as a result of the way such people are treated by certain sections of society?

Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

Comments