Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

floggg

One eyed Jack wrote: »

See that's a much better and much more honest answer than -

"This referendum isn't about children".

If people smell BS and wishy-washy avoidance answers, is it any wonder they're going to get their backs up?

That's all I wanted, is that we acknowledge that these kinds of questions ARE going to be asked, not to trip people up or undermine people, but out of genuine concern for questions that need answers, and if we don't know the answers, I'd rather people admit "I don't know", than give what feels like some rehearsed party line answer.

You can't ask people to think about what if one of their children were LGBT, or what if someone related to them were LGBT and they didn't know it, etc, and then turn round and say "this referendum isn't about children, oh and and it doesn't affect anyone else but LGBT people".

That, to me at least, reads like you're trying to hide something from me that you don't want to give me an honest answer. Either give people an honest answer, or say "I don't know", but don't say something condescending and patronising like -

"This referendum has nothing to do with children, this referendum won't affect heterosexual people", etc, and then expect them to make any attempt to understand where you're coming from when you're unwilling to relate to their concerns.

I know there's going to be plenty of wind-up merchants appear between now and May, but if you waste more time on them than addressing legitimate concerns, people are going to start thinking you're ignoring them, and come the time of the referendum when you're looking for their support, they'll have forgotten all about you.

But the answer would the same even if the referendum failed. If a divorced mother moves her girlfriend or civil partner into the house she shares with her kids, their father can't really raise an objection to the fact that she is in a relationship with a woman outside of the context of custody, and I imagine the court would again not change the custody arrangements simply because the father objects to her being in a same sex relationship. They would only do so where there is a compelling reason to do so.

So in the example you gave, the position would be the same if the spouse who has custody marries their same sex partner, enters into a CP or just moves in with them.


As far as I know, the proposed legislation will put civil partnerships in the same position as marriage in relation to all issues relating to the child. So there will be little difference if the referendum passes or fails in solar as concerns childrens issues.

Nodin

fran17 wrote: »

Irish times,you............to keep chasing strawman arguments.

Jaysus Fran, it can't be that long ye can't type it out again. Could you link to where you've stated it?

DarkyHughes

I will & I'll vote in favor of it. I know 1 or 2 gay lads & 1 gay girl & there all sound as a pound.

floggg

fran17 wrote: »

Irish times,you must be kidding.Childrens rights,a touch lightweight.So I went straight to the department of justice in breathless anticipation of the answers to those questions.Page 1,and I quote "This act may be cited as the children and family relationships act 201_".There is not even a year on this act let alone a day or month.All we can surmise is it will be this decade,and that's if its in its current form.I ask everyone undecided to think very carefully about this referendum and the domino effect it may have.

Browse my posting history Nodin,I've made my thoughts very clear on this subject.I played the game in the past on this forum and know very clearly now how it works and how it ends.The problem with trying to be rational on these subjects is that words and meanings must be redefined by the pro side because if they don't redefine them then they don't have an argument at all.It goes from such lunacies as "being homophobic if you disagree for any reason" to "redefined marriage" to "prostate orgasms".The list is endless and contrary to what you may believe this subject plays a very small part in my life and I don't have the time or the will to keep chasing strawman arguments.

I would suggest you go research how the legislative system works.

They are heads of terms. They can't tell you what date it will pass, until it passes.
Its also only the general scheme of the bill, not the bill itself. the text is currently being worked out.

Pray tell, where has this rational argument been set out by you?

Grayson

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Do some believe that children are at a disadvantage being raised by a single sex couple?
Do statistics support this argument either way?
The only information I have is that a friend of mine is raising two boys with her partner and seem to be doing a wonderful job.
They would desperately like to get married, I hope they get what they want tbh.

I went looking for stats on this ages ago and found that they were slightly better off. mainly it's down to income. Gay couples who adopt generally earn more than the average family.

Incidentally single parents fared the worst but only because of low incomes. If you compared single parents with high wages, the difference was negligible.

Annasopra

fran17 wrote: »

I'm very curious about this.Where have you seen the final draft and wording of this bill?Also how do you know the date it will be enacted into law?

The final wording isnt available yet.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB14000256

It has always been the governments intention to bring this in before the referendum.

endacl

DarkyHughes wrote: »

I will & I'll vote in favor of it. I know 1 or 2 gay lads & 1 gay girl & there all sound as a pound.

Sound as €1.27.

Just doesn't roll off the tongue in quite the same way...

fran17

floggg wrote: »

I would suggest you go research how the legislative system works.

They are heads of terms. They can't tell you what date it will pass, until it passes.
Its also only the general scheme of the bill, not the bill itself. the text is currently being worked out.

Pray tell, where has this rational argument been set out by you?

Yes we don't know what the bill will say and we don't know when,or if,it will be enacted.What we do know and its crystal clear,if this referendum is passed then the gate is unlocked and all is possible.A scenario may ensue where two transsexual men can adopt a child because if this referendum is passed then these individuals can legally be recognised as married therefor can apply for adoption with the full protection of the laws of Ireland.
We all have the experience of the protection of life during pregnancy act.That bill,as I becoming very evident now,has unlocked the door to full abortion.Its only a matter of time.Its the same lobby,with the same morals,pushing this bill and people must bear this in mind.

floggg you have been very quick to highlight my posting history in the past,i'm sure you can find it.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The final wording isnt available yet.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB14000256

It has always been the governments intention to bring this in before the referendum.

Yes the final wording is not available yet and I wouldn't expect this bill to be anything more than bland to appease the public.Its possible there could even be a general election in 2015.

Daith

fran17 wrote: »

What we do know and its crystal clear,if this referendum is passed then the gate is unlocked

You mean everyone in Ireland will be equal? Go unlocked gates

Why are you against everyone being equal?

TwoShedsJackson

The floodgates of equality and inclusiveness threaten those who wish to rely on some Bronze Age goat herders for their morals, and to know who they should despise for being different to them.

Annasopra

Fran I'm not sure what you are on about to be honest.

1 The government has clearly and openly said it will bring in law to allow same sex couples adopt
2 The government has clearly and openly said this will be law before the referendum
3 I have no idea why you are conflating abortion and marriage equality - they are entirely separate issues

One eyed Jack

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

The floodgates of equality and inclusiveness threaten those who wish to rely on some Bronze Age goat herders for their morals, and to know who they should despise for being different to them.

Irony.

TwoShedsJackson

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Irony.

Plus goldy and bronzy. I don't despise anyone who votes No, but you do have to wonder about why they cannot put up one single argument for voting no that isn't either 'because this is the way it has always been and so it should stay that way' or 'the Bible/God says it's wrong'.

Do you have one?

One eyed Jack

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Plus goldy and bronzy. I don't despise anyone who votes No, but you do have to wonder about why they cannot put up one single argument for voting no that isn't either 'because this is the way it has always been and so it should stay that way' or 'the Bible/God says it's wrong'.

Do you have one?

I don't have to wonder at all actually because I understand and accept that some people don't think the way I do, that their morality is based on their religious beliefs, and as much as you might judge and ridicule them for that, their attitude is no different to your own. You both just have different world views that inform your opinion of people who think differently to you, and you're unlikely to resolve those differences by running each other down.

What you also fail to understand however, is that there are plenty of people who are not religious who have an irrational fear of LGBT people, and there are plenty of LGBT people who are religious.

floggg

fran17 wrote: »

Yes we don't know what the bill will say and we don't know when,or if,it will be enacted.What we do know and its crystal clear,if this referendum is passed then the gate is unlocked and all is possible.A scenario may ensue where two transsexual men can adopt a child because if this referendum is passed then these individuals can legally be recognised as married therefor can apply for adoption with the full protection of the laws of Ireland.
We all have the experience of the protection of life during pregnancy act.That bill,as I becoming very evident now,has unlocked the door to full abortion.Its only a matter of time.Its the same lobby,with the same morals,pushing this bill and people must bear this in mind.

floggg you have been very quick to highlight my posting history in the past,i'm sure you can find it.



Yes the final wording is not available yet and I wouldn't expect this bill to be anything more than bland to appease the public.Its possible there could even be a general election in 2015.

Again, the intent is that adoption will be brought in BEFORE the referendum, so the referendum WONT AFFECT the adoption situation.

I assume your "doors unlocked" is your way of trying to say we will open the flood gates of doom and unleash our destruction.

No. The legislation (not referendum) will simply allow same sex couples adopt jointly. They will only be able to do so where the satisfy the rigorous criteria for adoption and they can offer a good home to a child. We know that the gender of a childs parents doesn't effect the quality of their upbringing, so it would be absurd to maintain gender of the parents as a prohibitive criteria. what will matter is that you have a couple in a stable committed relationship who can offer a good home.

I have read a lot of posts by you. I have never seen a rational argument. A lot of red herrings, factually inaccurate claims, offensive statements or inferences and insinuations.

Hence why I asked where the rational argument was.


Also, we don't have full abortion. the doors are very much locked - save i very specific circumstances where the mothers life is at risk and the conditions and procedures set out in the legislation have been satisfied.

Grayson

floggg wrote: »

Again, the intent is that adoption will be brought in BEFORE the referendum, so the referendum WONT AFFECT the adoption situation.

I assume your "doors unlocked" is your way of trying to say we will open the flood gates of doom and unleash our destruction.

No. The legislation (not referendum) will simply allow same sex couples adopt jointly. They will only be able to do so where the satisfy the rigorous criteria for adoption and they can offer a good home to a child. We know that the gender of a childs parents doesn't effect the quality of their upbringing, so it would be absurd to maintain gender of the parents as a prohibitive criteria. what will matter is that you have a couple in a stable committed relationship who can offer a good home.

I have read a lot of posts by you. I have never seen a rational argument. A lot of red herrings, factually inaccurate claims, offensive statements or inferences and insinuations.

Hence why I asked where the rational argument was.


Also, we don't have full abortion. the doors are very much locked - save i very specific circumstances where the mothers life is at risk and the conditions and procedures set out in the legislation have been satisfied.

It's also worth noting that all adoptive parents have to jump through hoops to get a child. They are vetted more than most people in the country.

If two trans people get married and adopt it will be because they have met the highest standards.

TwoShedsJackson

One eyed Jack wrote: »

... and there are plenty of LGBT people who are religious.

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

Daith

Grayson wrote: »

It's also worth noting that all adoptive parents have to jump through hoops to get a child. They are vetted more than most people in the country.

Also if you're a single gay person looking to adopt/foster and you're in a relationship, you're partner will be vetted too despite not having a legal standing with the child.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

To be fair they're are not un-natural. It's the actual act itself. However I'm assuming any religious person who dislikes same sex marriage because of their religion follows the tenants of their Church to the letter.

Annasopra

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

Contact them and ask them

http://www.gcvi.ie/index.php/about-us

I think One Eyed Jack is correct. We shouldnt buy into this one dimensional view of people.

Doctor Jimbob

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

Probably in much the same manner as many Catholics manage to reconcile eating pork or shellfish or any of the many many other things banned by Leviticus - I would assume they view it as an outdated part of the religion based on the laws at the time of writing.

fran17

Grayson wrote: »

It's also worth noting that all adoptive parents have to jump through hoops to get a child. They are vetted more than most people in the country.

If two trans people get married and adopt it will be because they have met the highest standards.

Sorry but your completely detached from reality in the Ireland of yesterday,today or tomorrow.I'm not calling you a fantasist but do you really believe that two transsexual men should have the right to adopt,raise and mould a child to adulthood?And you don't see any issues this would inevitably create for the child's personal or social development?

lazygal

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

No more so than couples who have sex before marriage. Or use contraception or avail of IVF, both of which the catholic church considers wrong. Or couples who have children outside of marriage. I've never met a single person who actually follows all the catholic rules. Why do couples have IVF when their faith tells them its wrong? I guess because they don't really believe the rules themselves.

robinph

fran17 wrote: »

Sorry but your completely detached from reality in the Ireland of yesterday,today or tomorrow.I'm not calling you a fantasist but do you really believe that two transsexual men should have the right to adopt,raise and mould a child to adulthood?And you don't see any issues this would inevitably create for the child's personal or social development?

If it's so obvious then maybe you could point out these your issues for the rest of the class?

lazygal

fran17 wrote: »

Sorry but your completely detached from reality in the Ireland of yesterday,today or tomorrow.I'm not calling you a fantasist but do you really believe that two transsexual men should have the right to adopt,raise and mould a child to adulthood?And you don't see any issues this would inevitably create for the child's personal or social development?

If they can provide a child with a stable loving environment what does it matter? There are plenty of men and women doing a terrible job of raising children despite being in heterosexual relationships.

Daith

fran17 wrote: »

Sorry but your completely detached from reality in the Ireland of yesterday,today or tomorrow.I'm not calling you a fantasist but do you really believe that two transsexual men should have the right to adopt,raise and mould a child to adulthood?And you don't see any issues this would inevitably create for the child's personal or social development?

Well putting up one narrow minded bigots would be an issue I guess.

Do you think that every child of a straight couple doesn't have personal or social development issues?

Doctor Jimbob

fran17 wrote: »

Sorry but your completely detached from reality in the Ireland of yesterday,today or tomorrow.I'm not calling you a fantasist but do you really believe that two transsexual men should have the right to adopt,raise and mould a child to adulthood?And you don't see any issues this would inevitably create for the child's personal or social development?

You realise the exact same arguments have been made against mixed race couples, single parents and divorce? The idea that a healthy, well adjusted child can only be raised by 2 heterosexual parents has been proved wrong time and time again, and I can't see any reason whatsoever that it would be any different in this case. I get it. Change is scary. But there is absolutely no evidence to support your claims that anything outside of the 'traditional' mammy and daddy family is inherently flawed.

VinLieger

fran17 wrote: »

Sorry but your completely detached from reality in the Ireland of yesterday,today or tomorrow.I'm not calling you a fantasist but do you really believe that two transsexual men should have the right to adopt,raise and mould a child to adulthood?And you don't see any issues this would inevitably create for the child's personal or social development?

What exact personal or social development issues are you referring to?

Grayson

fran17 wrote: »

Sorry but your completely detached from reality in the Ireland of yesterday,today or tomorrow.I'm not calling you a fantasist but do you really believe that two transsexual men should have the right to adopt,raise and mould a child to adulthood?And you don't see any issues this would inevitably create for the child's personal or social development?

Well, they'll probably have no problems with trans people if that's what you mean. That could stop them fitting into certain social circles where people have a problem with trans people (like yours).

Or are you suggesting that trans people make bad parents? Because if that's the case, lets round up their children and take them of them.

btw, the correct term for two transsexual men is two women.

And I'd imagine that it would be very, very rare for two men to end up as lesbians after gender reassignment and then to end up meeting/marrying. But if those very, very slim odds are met, they yes, I'm ok with them being adoptive parents. So long as they pass the rigorous tests that everyone else does.

Mark Tapley

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have often wondered about that actually, how do they reconcile being LGBT with following the tenets of an organisation that decries them as un-natural and/or in need of 'savnig'?

I have a lesbian cousin who is religious, she married a man. She was influenced by her church I believe. The marriage lasted three months and did nobody any favours. She gets comfort it seems from her beliefs but it comes at a cost.

darced

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