Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

floggg · 25-12-2014 10:52am

fran17 wrote: »

I'm not talking about and I don't know why these people suffer from these disorders,but there is a hugely elevated risk of them suffering from them and if this referendum is passed then this is a clear and present danger.If,where children are concerned,even if one couple slip through the net is that not one too many?Do you feel a childs welfare is worth that risk just for some form of perceived equality?
And as for being quickly identified,Ireland has a track record for failing children on all levels and that's with people deemed to be a much less risk than transsexuals.A statement like that is quite flippant when so much is at risk.

I live in Ireland,not America,and this will affect Irish children.I really don't see the logical basis for your argument here.How does an African American person who may have a lower life expectancy,jail record,experienced crime,no job or poor education relate to a transsexual couple in Ireland who,statically speaking,have a very elevated risk of suffering from severe mental disorders including suicide,and drug and alcohol abuse problems? This is the environment you wish children to be in.

a trans couple can already adopt Fran. There is nothing in law to prevent a trans man and a trans woman adopting.

Hope that doesn't give you too many sleepless nights.

As for the comparison to African Americans, the logic should be quote easy to grasp.

If you think being raised by somebody at elevated risk of mental disorders and alcoholism is a bad environment for a child, then surely being raised by a uneducated criminal who is at elevated risk of being murdered before the child is fully raised is an equally bad environment.

If there was any logical consistency to your position, either both should be banned or none.

If.

Arguing for measures based on statistical risks against one group only suggests it is more animus against that group then a principled based concern which motivates you.

floggg · 25-12-2014 12:08pm

fran17 wrote: »

ok Joey,just for you.As we sit here now in 2014 the law states that only married couples may apply and be accepted for adoption,transgender couple may not apply.If this referendum is passed then transgender couples can legally be seen as married in the eyes of the law,thus may apply for adoption as a married couple.I'm not talking about any bills that may or may not be passed or may or may not include clarification on this matter,that is guess work and I'm concentrating on the facts.
Transgender people are statistically proven to suffer from highly elevated levels of depression,self harm and drug and alcohol abuse.With Irelands long running history of failing our children do you feel this would be an acceptable risk?

It is rather absurd to say we should disregard promised legislation, the text of which we are yet to see, as guess work, and then go on to draw definitive conclusions on the effects of a promised referendum, the text of which we are yet to see, and treat that as facts.

fran17 wrote: »

I'm merely speaking on the back of proven studies and factual conclusions here.You cant play the "dehumanising" card everytime an issue arises,beware the boy who cried wolf.Where have I spoken about dehumanising people or taking rights here?People don't have the right,straight or gay,to adoption without complete and utter scrutiny.

If you approach the issue on the basis of proven studies and facts, may we assume therefore you accept and agree with the numerous studies which have shown that same sex couples are equally capable parents as opposite sex couples, and thus that same sex couples should be allowed adopt and raise children?

PopePalpatine · 25-12-2014 7:03pm

fran17 wrote: »

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/gender_identity_disorder

I'd encourage you to pay particular attention to the pieces about heightened levels of anxiety,depression and suicide.Transgender women are also much higher risk of drug and alcohol abuse.

Being labelled "deviants" and "freaks" by bigots might explain mental health problems in the transgender community.

david75 · 26-12-2014 4:30pm

So who's doing the attacking? Well rounded Christian children of heterosexual two parent families? surely not, eh Fran..

Some of the UK's biggest police forces have seen transphobic hate crimes soar this year - with the true number of attacks likely to be much higher.

Police data reveals victims have been subjected to assaults, verbal abuse and harassment on the street.

The Metropolitan Police saw offences against transgender people soar by 44 per cent in 2014 with 95 crimes recorded, up from 66 last year and 59 in 2012.

They included 53 harassment offences this year, 17 common assaults, seven grievous bodily harm (GBH) offences and seven assaults with injury, as well as rape, robbery, criminal damage and burglary.

Eleven forces revealed they recorded more transphobic hate crimes between January and November than the whole of 2013, according to figures released to the Press Association under the Freedom of Information Act.

However, a leading charity warned crimes against transgender people were "massively under-reported", meaning the actual number may be much higher.

Serge Nicholson, from the charity Galop, which supports lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people, said a third of trans people in the UK received transphobic abuse every year - thr second highest of any EU country.

"As much as 80 per cent of transphobia is not reported. So the rise in transphobic police recording can be viewed as encouraging, though it leaves us with mixed feelings. One transphobic hate crime is one too many."

The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) acknowledged transphobic hate crimes had been "significantly under-reported".

Chief Constable Jane Sawyers, the national policing lead for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) issues, said targeting someone because of their gender identity is "totally unacceptable".

"We strongly encourage anyone who has experienced transphobic hate crime to report incidents to the police," she said.

Avon and Somerset Police recorded 38 transgender hate crimes between January and November, up from 22 in 2013 and 12 in 2012.

Meanwhile, Merseyside Police recorded 32 hate crimes that were as classed as transphobic or motivated by a person's gender between January and November, double the number of offences reported in the previous year.

In Suffolk, where police have recorded 63 transphobic hate crimes since 2012, a group of children aged seven to nine verbally abused a transgender person, a rock was used to smash the sunroof of another victim's car and an assault was carried out with a blunt object.

In South Yorkshire, where 16 transphobic hate crimes were recorded since 2012, a transgender person had a brick thrown at them in the street and another victim was punched in the face after having their wig and earrings pulled off.

Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire, where police have recorded 15 transphobic hate crimes since 2012, incidents included two people who were spat at and verbally abused for being transgender and another where transphobic graffiti was sprayed on a house.

Greater Manchester, South Wales, Nottinghamshire, Durham, Kent, Norfolk, West Mercia Police, Northumbria and Gloucestershire police forces also saw transphobic hate crimes rise between January and November compared to last year.

c_man · 26-12-2014 4:40pm

The Metropolitan Police saw offences against transgender people soar by 44 per cent in 2014 with 95 crimes recorded, up from 66 last year and 59 in 2012.
.....

These hate crimes are "soaring", really? Sorry to say, but out of a population of 8-10 million having such figures in the double digit doesn't seem too bad. Actually does every crime against such a person count as a hate crime?

shruikan2553 · 26-12-2014 4:47pm

david75 wrote: »

So who's doing the attacking? Well rounded Christian children of heterosexual two parent families? surely not, eh Fran..

Some of the UK's biggest police forces have seen transphobic hate crimes soar this year - with the true number of attacks likely to be much higher.

Police data reveals victims have been subjected to assaults, verbal abuse and harassment on the street.

The Metropolitan Police saw offences against transgender people soar by 44 per cent in 2014 with 95 crimes recorded, up from 66 last year and 59 in 2012.

They included 53 harassment offences this year, 17 common assaults, seven grievous bodily harm (GBH) offences and seven assaults with injury, as well as rape, robbery, criminal damage and burglary.

Eleven forces revealed they recorded more transphobic hate crimes between January and November than the whole of 2013, according to figures released to the Press Association under the Freedom of Information Act.

However, a leading charity warned crimes against transgender people were "massively under-reported", meaning the actual number may be much higher.

Serge Nicholson, from the charity Galop, which supports lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) people, said a third of trans people in the UK received transphobic abuse every year - thr second highest of any EU country.

"As much as 80 per cent of transphobia is not reported. So the rise in transphobic police recording can be viewed as encouraging, though it leaves us with mixed feelings. One transphobic hate crime is one too many."

The Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo) acknowledged transphobic hate crimes had been "significantly under-reported".

Chief Constable Jane Sawyers, the national policing lead for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) issues, said targeting someone because of their gender identity is "totally unacceptable".

"We strongly encourage anyone who has experienced transphobic hate crime to report incidents to the police," she said.

Avon and Somerset Police recorded 38 transgender hate crimes between January and November, up from 22 in 2013 and 12 in 2012.

Meanwhile, Merseyside Police recorded 32 hate crimes that were as classed as transphobic or motivated by a person's gender between January and November, double the number of offences reported in the previous year.

In Suffolk, where police have recorded 63 transphobic hate crimes since 2012, a group of children aged seven to nine verbally abused a transgender person, a rock was used to smash the sunroof of another victim's car and an assault was carried out with a blunt object.

In South Yorkshire, where 16 transphobic hate crimes were recorded since 2012, a transgender person had a brick thrown at them in the street and another victim was punched in the face after having their wig and earrings pulled off.

Meanwhile, in Lincolnshire, where police have recorded 15 transphobic hate crimes since 2012, incidents included two people who were spat at and verbally abused for being transgender and another where transphobic graffiti was sprayed on a house.

Greater Manchester, South Wales, Nottinghamshire, Durham, Kent, Norfolk, West Mercia Police, Northumbria and Gloucestershire police forces also saw transphobic hate crimes rise between January and November compared to last year.

Can we call the people involved with these attacks transphobic or is that being mean to them?

david75 · 26-12-2014 4:49pm

c_man wrote: »

These hate crimes are "soaring", really? Sorry to say, but out of a population of 8-10 million having such figures in the double digit doesn't seem too bad. Actually does every crime against such a person count as a hate crime?

i'm not even dignifying that TBH

c_man · 26-12-2014 4:52pm

david75 wrote: »

i'm not even dignifying that TBH

Emm ok... If you're gonna post a load of figures on the matter, I would have thought some questions would be welcome... I'll go with my gut and assume that they are counted that way, further inflating the "real" numbers of transphobic motivated crimes.

david75 · 26-12-2014 4:55pm

I was under the impression the population of the UK was up around 60 million?
The numbers arent being 'ramped up', even one attack on anyone is too many.
But I would say a lot more are going unreported.

david75 · 26-12-2014 4:57pm

When picturing the typical American family, you can forget about a "Leave It To Beaver"-type image. Currently, 54 percent of kids in this country don't live in a home with two heterosexual parents in their first marriage, according to a recent Pew Research Center report.

"It's important to keep in mind that what many define as 'traditional' is based on a 1950s-style family," Gretchen Livingston, Senior Researcher at Pew and author of the study, told HuffPost in an email. "But in many ways, the 1950s and early 1960s were an anomaly, especially in terms of the fact that people were marrying quite young and also having relatively large families."

Nowadays, only 46 percent of kids live in that aforementioned "traditional" family. Instead, 15 percent of today's kids are living with two parents in a remarriage, 34 percent live with an unmarried parent, 4 percent live with cohabiting parents and 5 percent don't live with either parent.

For perspective, 73 percent of American kids lived in a "traditional" family home in 1960, while only 9 percent lived with an unmarried parent.

Livingston said that the decline in marriage over the last 50 years can explain the increasing number of kids living with single or cohabiting parents. It's also now more socially acceptable for people to cohabit, marry later and have kids outside of marriage -- 41 percent of births today are happening without a walk down the aisle, according to Pew.

Then, of course, there's the rise of divorce. The divorce rate may have peaked in 1981, but it's still contributing to the shift away from the 1960s "traditional" family structure.

Moral of the story? When it comes to family, abnormal is the new normal.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/24/traditional-families-pew-report_n_6377136.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063

c_man · 26-12-2014 5:04pm

david75 wrote: »

I was under the impression the population of the UK was up around 60 million?
The numbers arent being 'ramped up', even one attack on anyone is too many.
But I would say a lot more are going unreported.

I picked the figure from the Met, which as I understand it covers London. That's the pop figure I gave.

So if a transgender person and their friend are both walking down the street and get jumped, is one counted as a hate crime and the other not? That's pretty much what I was getting at with numbers being 'ramped up'.

estudent · 26-12-2014 5:05pm

The next step of these people is to remove age of consent and legally abuse children.

shruikan2553 · 26-12-2014 5:08pm

estudent wrote: »

The next step of these people is to remove age of consent and legally abuse children.

At least the church cant say its against their tradition!

david75 · 26-12-2014 5:11pm

c_man wrote: »

I picked the figure from the Met, which as I understand it covers London. That's the pop figure I gave.

So if a transgender person and their friend are both walking down the street and get jumped, is one counted as a hate crime and the other not? That's pretty much what I was getting at with numbers being 'ramped up'.

Depends on the cause of the attack or shouted abuse id imagine.

end of the road · 26-12-2014 5:12pm

estudent wrote: »

The next step of these people is to remove age of consent and legally abuse children.

which people

Doctor Jimbob · 26-12-2014 5:14pm

end of the road wrote: »

which people

The 'gay lobby' or 'liberals' I suppose.

david75 · 26-12-2014 5:14pm

estudent wrote: »

The next step of these people is to remove age of consent and legally abuse children.

There was a doco about this on bbc2 the other night. A serious move was made by some elected MPs and paedophiles in a regular newsletter/fanzine for paedophiles in the 1930s to lower the age of consent to 3 or 4.
Never happened of course but it didn't stop a secret Ring of people, most quite powerful and some even MPs from carrying on as paedophiles.

osarusan · 26-12-2014 5:19pm

c_man wrote: »

I picked the figure from the Met, which as I understand it covers London. That's the pop figure I gave.

So if a transgender person and their friend are both walking down the street and get jumped, is one counted as a hate crime and the other not? That's pretty much what I was getting at with numbers being 'ramped up'.

Report quoted says 'motivated by a person's gender..'

estudent · 26-12-2014 5:20pm

shruikan2553 wrote: »

At least the church cant say its against their tradition!

I'm against any child abuse whether it by church or not, idiot.

Plenty of examples showing groups trying to legalise sex with minors like NAMBLA.
Most members of NAMBLA consider themselves to be homosexual yet they want age of consent abolished.

There are even groups of men that want to force circumcision of young baby boys for their own perversions.

circleaks [dot] org

Why is society always fixated with homosexuality?

osarusan · 26-12-2014 5:25pm

estudent wrote: »

I'm against any child abuse whether it by church or not, idiot.

Plenty of examples showing groups trying to legalise sex with minors like NAMBLA.
Most members of NAMBLA consider themselves to be homosexual yet they want age of consent abolished.

There are even groups of men that want to force circumcision of young baby boys for their own perversions.

circleaks [dot] org

Why is society always fixated with homosexuality?

what has any of this nonsense got to do with a marriage equality referendum in Ireland?

Doctor Jimbob · 26-12-2014 5:27pm

estudent wrote: »

I'm against any child abuse whether it by church or not, idiot.

Plenty of examples showing groups trying to legalise sex with minors like NAMBLA.
Most members of NAMBLA consider themselves to be homosexual yet they want age of consent abolished.

There are even groups of men that want to force circumcision of young baby boys for their own perversions.

circleaks [dot] org

Why is society always fixated with homosexuality?

Why are you fixated with homosexuality?

SpaceSasqwatch · 26-12-2014 5:27pm

osarusan wrote: »

what has any of this nonsense got to do with a marriage euality referendum in Ireland?

Absolutely nothing...just an angry bald man spouting rubbish........

estudent · 26-12-2014 5:33pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Why are you fixated with homosexuality?

I'm not. I just see "gay marriage referendum" threads all over the internet TODAY and recall all the politically lobbied legislation in the 80s and 90s calling for abolition, age of consent laws.

Calibos · 26-12-2014 5:38pm

There's definitely candidate Poe's Law posts in this thread.

Doctor Jimbob · 26-12-2014 5:40pm

estudent wrote: »

I'm not. I just see "gay marriage referendum" threads all over the internet TODAY and recall all the politically lobbied legislation in the 80s and 90s calling for abolition, age of consent laws.

Yes. Because some of us like the idea of equal rights. Crazy, I know. I'm not fixated with homosexuals. I just think it would be nice if they had the same rights as the rest of us.

estudent · 26-12-2014 5:45pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Yes. Because some of us like the idea of equal rights. Crazy, I know. I'm not fixated with homosexuals. I just think it would be nice if they had the same rights as the rest of us.

Lots of gay men, joined the the Catholic Church so they could get away with abusing young boys just like lots of other men could get away with abusing young girls.

Why is it that young boys abused are less important to those who approve of homosexuality?

I'm not religious but I do hope there is some powerful force to punish these people.

Doctor Jimbob · 26-12-2014 5:47pm

estudent wrote: »

Lots of gay men, joined the the Catholic Church so they could get away with abusing young boys just like lots of other men could get away with abusing young girls.

Why is it that young boys abused are less important to those who approve of homosexuality?

I'm not religious but I do hope there is some powerful force to punish these people.

No, lots of pedophiles joined the catholic church for that reason. Pedophilia is not equivalent to homosexuality.

Your arguments are nonsense and reprehensible.

estudent · 26-12-2014 5:52pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

No, lots of pedophiles joined the catholic church for that reason. Pedophilia is not equivalent to homosexuality.

Maybe you can correct me but both men and women were treated like animals by the Catholic Church. A despicable, arrogant and ignorant institution which still runs schools in Ireland.

From what I understand, Irish people still force their children to learn from this scribe called 'The Bible' and turn up in best clothes for Sunday mass? Why not donate all your success to your good Catholic upbringing? Just ignore those homeless people as you pass them by.

Yet you want to pontificate the virtues of human rights?

Your arguments are nonsense and reprehensible.

In your opinion.

david75 · 26-12-2014 5:55pm

eStudent, looking over your posting history, you definitely seem to attempt to make every topic about the bible and futility of teaching it, or living by it. This topic isn't about that and attempting to equate Gay people as paedophiles or believing every Priest was a paedophile, doesnt really help you or the topic at hand. It's a poorly informed view.

thaidad2 · 26-12-2014 5:55pm

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

No, lots of pedophiles joined the catholic church for that reason. Pedophilia is not equivalent to homosexuality.

Your arguments are nonsense and reprehensible.

So lot's of gay men joined the priests cause they where gay and lots of gay paedophiles also joined, was there a link? I mean the preists all went aftwr boys so they where gay paedophiles, where did the straight paedophiles go? Is there less straight paedophiles?

Will you vote in the gay marriage referendum?

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