Random Running Questions

jebuz wrote: »

Stazza, very interesting post thanks for taking the time to share. I'm not doubting you because you seem to be very knowledgeable and scientifically tuned in on the subject but it conflicts with a lot of advice I've been given regarding my nutrition and eating around my training, advice which has really worked in my favour. In fact I do all my running on empty and have had very good results in both training and racing, particularly in the last few months which is when I really started putting more effort into my nutrition. Of course I get days where I'm sluggish but that's more down to accumulated fatigue rather than fuelling, that's what I feel anyway.

I've raced up a 1/2 and a 10 milers recently on empty and never got that "feeling" you speak of when you know you're running low on fuel, I do know the feeling though. I ran a 2:54 marathon 18 months ago based loosely on the same (high fat, train on empty) plan, didn't take any gels (ok half a gel) and had a great race with no fuelling issues so I believe I've been adapting for quite some time now and this really suits me.

I still rely on carbs of course for my sessions and I make sure to replenish immediately after each 60+ min run with a good serving of fruit followed by carbs with dinner and that is what gets me through my next session. I believe I'm pretty well adapted at this stage but is it possible in your opinion that you can fat-adapt to a level that you can run at MP and still be burning a majority of fat? Is it crazy to think this could work for a 2:40 marathon? Or do you think I could be running better by eating before my sessions, it doesn't feel that way right now but you've certainly put doubts in my mind

Sorry for any typos of if anything isn't too clear - I've just rattled this out:

Ok, let me deal with the first two para’s and then I’ll come back to the final para.

Most people will do their morning runs on empty – they don’t really have time to fuel up, digest, empty, and then run. I often run on empty too. I have no problem going out and running 16 miles on empty at 7-7:30 pace. More often, I’ll do an 8 on empty in about 58 mins or so – although I try not to do this, I try to do my morning runs after breakfast. Also, when you first start running on empty, you will adapt quickly, especially if you are just starting out. (I’m employing ‘you’ as a plural pronoun, not you specifically.)

We need to think about what it is we’re doing when we’re training on empty. Basically, training stresses the body, which disturbs the homeostasis, this activates messengers and they go scuttling and trigger signaling pathways. If this happens regularly (like in your case) adaptations take place. Your body has adapted to training on empty.

When we train on empty we go into a catabolic state but if we get the post workout nutrition right, we can switch from catabolic to anabolic – hormones are released and the magic happens. If we don’t get the post training nutrition right the impact on the adaptations will differ – (if I were you, I’d look at getting in some BCAA after your workouts and some form of protein straight after your 60 min runs – this will encourage the necessary hormone release for the switch from catabolic to anabolic). Probably meaning that we’ll stay in a catabolic state longer and not get the max out of our training. The body is great at ‘coping’.

If you were to have your breakfast before training, the stress to the body would change and in fact the stress wouldn’t be as great as that as training in a fasted state. But, and this is an important but, your body wouldn’t be in a full blown catabolic state, especially if you got your pre training nutrition right. Swings and roundabouts here. Do you want your body to adapt (over time) to running in a fasted state @ 7 min pace for 60 mins or do you want to recover effectively from the previous day’s hard session? Take into account the impact of constantly grinding down the body – is your body getting a chance to fully recover and maximize the impact of the adaptations from the key sessions?

On to the 10 -13 miler ‘feeling’. In a reasonably well trained runner, running 13 miles or 10 miles fasted shouldn’t prove too difficult. Even doing a hard session in a fasted state shouldn’t prove too difficult. Jake bangs out 17 milers with LT segments in a fasted state. I can do intervals and long runs fasted too. Paddy the Kenyan races everything in a fasted state. But what we should be asking is what are we trying to do?

If you are trying to teach the body to run @ 6 min pace for 26 miles, then you’d be better off stressing the body in such a way that you’re teaching it to adapt to 6 min pace and burning fat while saving as much glycogen as possible.

Is it better to do 60 mins in the morning in a fasted state at 7 pace the day after a session of mile reps or would it be better to do the 60 mins after eating so that you don’t go catabolic and the recovery and adaptations from the mile reps are more efficacious?

Or would it be better to bang out a more specific session/ double session where the body is being stressed to failure and then adapts the next time – if and only if the recovery is done properly?

These are the things we should be thinking about. What exactly are you doing when you run 8 miles the day after a workout? What was the purpose of the workout? How do I progress that workout? Etc etc.

To answer your question about 2:40 – I’m not saying to run 26miles at 6 pace on fat; I’m saying that we should be trying to create the necessary stimulus that forces the body to adapt to burning fuel (glycogen and fat) effectively at 6 pace.

My suggestion would be to target certain sessions where you are stressing the body in such a way that it learns to become economical at whatever pace you want to run. Target the workouts where you want/need the body to be effective at burning fuel either side of mp.

Hope this helps.

menoscemo wrote: »

Stazza, just a quick question on the whole 'on empty' thing.
Surely if we have had a good meal the night before, we don't burn much glycogen while asleep (if any) so there is no reason we would be at 'empty' the next morning.
Is there really a need to have breakfast before running to top up glycogen stores?
Is sleeping really such a drain on our glycogen stores?
I regularly run a hilly 13k into work on just a mouthful of water, while I found this tough at first ( about 3 years ago) I think it really brought me on over long distances. Still hate this run every time though

Good point but unfortunately, when we're asleep, 50% of the glycogen stored in the liver is drained. And like I mentioned, once we've been running for a while we can 'handle' running on empty. But because we can 'handle' it, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's the best way to train. Again, it comes back to, what is the point of the run 'we' are doing?

menoscemo wrote: »

So the glycogen stores in the liver are lowered during sleep but not the muscles?

Not quite... if we don't take in fuel after sleeping, which is one way of low carb training availability, we are 'limiting' exogenous skeletal muscle carbohydrates and this can help in training the body to adapt. But the workouts need to be more targeted and progressive rather than the norm of , yeah I'll go for a run on empty and that'll help fat adaptation. Yes, it helps fat adaptation but at a cost and a chronic cost at that: the body isn't getting a chance to fully recover and maximise adaptation etc.

Stazza wrote: »

Not quite... if we don't take in fuel after sleeping, which is one way of low carb training availability, we are 'limiting' exogenous skeletal muscle carbohydrates and this can help in training the body to adapt. But the workouts need to be more targeted and progressive rather than the norm of , yeah I'll go for a run on empty and that'll help fat adaptation. Yes, it helps fat adaptation but at a cost and a chronic cost at that: the body isn't getting a chance to fully recover and maximise adaptation etc.

Cool. I only ask because I do these runs out of handiness and time saving rather than anything else. Once a week I'll run home from work (12k downhill, but I'll often extend this if doing an MLR) and run back in the next morning 'on empty' only because I want to sleep as long as possible!!.

Given that driving takes 30 minutes and running takes 1hr-1hr 10 minutes it's a massive time saver. However tbh i have always noticed the legs to be totally wrecked all day after running into work (compared to a similar evening run) so your theories do pique my interest.

Murph_D wrote: »

Can you save me a step and cite some of these studies? I'd like to read some of this stuff out of general interest. I have access to a decent range of research databases.

No problem.

I wasn't being an ar$e when I said there were loads of studies - I know it reads that way - I was banging it out without taking the time to be all polite and that. I should have phrased it differently.

Stazza wrote: »

Have a few swigs of an energy drink before you head out and make sure you scoff some carbs and protein in the 15 min window and you'll probably be ok.

Just looking at this again.
How are 'a few swigs of energy drink' gonna cover a 12k run. considering 1/2 litre of Lucozade sport is about 200 kcal (max) a few swigs are really only gonna cover about half a mile surely?
Surely you'd be netter off taking nothing instead of 'prick teasing'?

menoscemo wrote: »

Just looking at this again.
How are 'a few swigs of energy drink' gonna cover a 12k run. considering 1/2 litre of Lucozade sport is about 200 kcal (max) a few swigs are really only gonna cover about half a mile surely?
Surely you'd be netter off taking nothing instead of 'prick teasing'?

Well, by a few swigs, I didn't mean that you literally take two mouthfuls and 'swallow' . Take a good old drink and it will go some way to replenishing some of the glycogen that your body used overnight to keep your system going. This,with the more 'muscle specific' glycogen, albeit at a lower concentration, should go some way to preventing you from going catabolic.

But in reality, the only real way to stop from going catabolic on your morning run is to do what I'm doing this morning: get up and have some breakfast and then go back to bed. Get up two hours later and you're ready to go.

Bottom line, if you're going to run for 60 mins or so in the morning on 'empty', you have to decide if the minimal benefits outweigh the greater cost, especially if it's supposed to be a recovery run.

What are the benefits? Slowly you begin to make adaptations to burn fat at plodding pace. But what's happening to your immune system? Now there's another can of worms...

Or, do you do your club workout on Tuesday and then on Wednesday try to run for only 35 mins in the morning with a couple of 'swigs' and hope that your muscle specific glycogen, plus what's left in your liver, and your 'couple of 'swigs' will do the job?

But hey, at least we're now starting to think about it...

It's just been pointed out to me that the issue might be more to do with my suggestion that Tommo was being a pr1ck. I apologise for suggesting that Tommo was being pr1ck. Clearly he wasn't being a pr1ck. Sorry Tommo, you weren't being a pr1ck and it was wrong of me to post that you were being a pr1ck.

The only other track open to the public in Dublin is Irishtown and use to be a fiver in, too far for you?. I don't think Santry is open to the public and the others in Dublin I know are privately owned by clubs - Tallaght and Donore.

Would it work out cheaper to join the Gym in the ALSAA for a year instead of paying as you go?