Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Random Running Questions
Options
Comments
-
-
-
-
Exactly. Thomas your example is not a relevant one, as you were likely not running to your limits. Would this also have been true of when you broke 3 hours for the marathon the first time? Remember these words?Incidentally- I'd have no problem running a 2:56 w just water. If I wanted to run 2:45 though I'd sure as shoot have a gel strategy
I had taken a gel at 10k and 15k, and each time it had given me a little bit of a lift. It may have been entirely psychological, but that does not matter. Unfortunately that lift never lasted more than a couple of minutes and was always followed by another low. I took another gel at this point and used the boost to hang on......
I'm not saying that gels are necessary, just that what's required when running a marathon at easy pace is not relevant to what may be required to run a marathon at optimal pace.0 -
If you look at the composition of a gel, it's basically a liquid form of carbohydrate (sugar); some complex, but largely simple sugars, plus some added electrolytes, and occasionally some caffeine. If you want to find a substitute, aim for something with a similar composition. Jelly beans are often used as an alternative as they are similar in composition, but obviously there's the added need to break them down (chew), so you will likely need to take them with water. There are variants with added electrolytes and even caffeine. I don't really take them myself, but am partial to watermelon flavour.paddybarry wrote: »What would ye recommend as an alternative to gels for a marathon. Anyone here run a sub 3 marathon without gels etc?
0 -
Advertisement
-
-
-
-
-
Krusty_Clown wrote: »Exactly. Thomas your example is not a relevant one, as you were likely not running to your limits. Would this also have been true of when you broke 3 hours for the marathon the first time? Remember these words?
I'm not saying that gels are necessary, just that what's required when running a marathon at easy pace is not relevant to what may be required to run a marathon at optimal pace.
My PB is 2:55, so a 2:56 marathon wasn't exactly hanging around.
The question I answered was if anyone here had run a sub-3 marathon without gels.
If there had been gels or sports drink available at the water stations that day I would have taken them - I wasn't trying to make a point or anything, but they only had water, and as it turned out I didn't need anything else. I don't think I would have run any faster with gels.0 -
Advertisement
-
Krusty_Clown wrote: »Remember these words?I had taken a gel at 10k and 15k, and each time it had given me a little bit of a lift. It may have been entirely psychological, but that does not matter. Unfortunately that lift never lasted more than a couple of minutes and was always followed by another low. I took another gel at this point and used the boost to hang on......
I'm unlikely to ever forget that run or what I wrote afterwards But note the section in bold. 0 -
-
-
-
-
Krusty_Clown wrote: »I can emphasise too!
And well done you!
But you're missing my point. Runners are fickle and confidence/mind tricks play a very important role. Gels are great for that - you can always look forward to the next one, and if you THINK it will help then it almost certainly will.
On the purely physiological side I do have my doubts, however. I never managed to take more than 3 gels in any marathon, and that's not a lot of energy no matter how you look at it. How much difference does it really make to your muscle glycogen levels?
During that run in Vienna, when I was just about hanging on, running at the very edge of my ability, just thinking about my next gel was very helpful. At the very least it stopped me thinking that I might collapse any time soon. Definitely a big plus, and it may well have made all the difference between finishing just under or just over 3 hours.
Nothing of all that means that gels are necessary. How many gels have the top Irish marathon runners consumed while trying to break John Treacy's times, and how much did it help them?0 -
-
-
-
-
Advertisement
-
Krusty_Clown wrote: »I have my doubts too, but as you pointed out, a psychological benefit is still a benefit, albeit a bit of a crutch. I'm not here to defend gels.
Funnily enough I'm not here to condemn them either. The next time I'm trying to lower my marathon PB, far away as it may be, I will almost certainly carry a couple of gels with me, helpful or not. Just like I'll probably be wearing some ugly compression socks, on the outside chance that they really help with cramping.
But let's get back to the original question that sparked the entire debate:paddybarry wrote: »What would ye recommend as an alternative to gels for a marathon. Anyone here run a sub 3 marathon without gels etc?
The answer to the second question is clearly yes, and my guess is that there are actually a fair few of us in that group.
As regards to the first question, I assume the OP either doesn't like gels or they disagree with him, so what would the alternative be?
Since I believe that the physiological effect of gels are not significant (things may be different for elite athletes, but let's ignore that for a moment), any other psychological crutch will do. Jelly babies? Dextrose tablets? Fig rolls? Dark chocolate? Rolos? Percy Pigs? ( <-- all things I have seen used, and the list is practically endless)
Gels have the advantage of coming in very handy packages, that's all.0 -
-
-
-
-
-
-
So what do you think is the way to train for fat adaptation? (Genuine question, in case you think otherwise)
Thanks for the parenthesis.
Marathon training is different to ultra training insomuch as the marathon relies a lot more on glycogen. Although there's a lot to ultra training, I suspect the main thing is about burning fat at what ever pace you're going to run at. Marathons are different. The reason why they are different is that they fall in the 'in-between zone'. Both glycogen and fat are important sources of energy.
Now, I think most of us know that if 'we' are running at our true mp 'available glycogen' will pretty much run out run out after 90 mins or so. (Note - I'm not saying glycogen will run out; I'm saying, 'available glycogen' will be limited and will eventually lead to 'bonking'.)
Most people - I've done this and coached it in too - run in the mornings on empty thinking that they are training their bodies to access fat as an energy source. And, after some time, the body will adapt and access fat. But it's important to understand some critical things here:
1. Once we start going beyond 60 mins on empty at whatever pace, never mind mp, we will be going catabolic. So, if the primary function of our morning run is a recovery/maintenance run, we will in fact be causing more harm to our bodies; even if our run is only 35 mins (min period of time necessary for any 'real aerobic metabolic stimulus') we will be adding to the breakdown impact of the previous day's training. This is exacerbated if we do our recovery runs/maintenance runs too fast, which most people do.
How can you tell if this is happening? Well, most people start saying on their logs that they weren't feeling great on their run, the legs were heavy etc. This continues and we end up in a cycle of running in a glycogen depleted/near depleted state day in day out. We don't get the maximum out of our bodies and we are in fact training in a catabolic state - numpty language: our bodies are eating themselves to provide energy.
If, however, we decide to do an occasional and targeted and progressive workout in an empty state, this can help with the necessary adaptations. What happens is that we fail during the workout. Eg: we do a mlr with say 10 miles @ or around mp and when we hit mile 9 we start to get 'that feeling'. The next time we do this session on empty, we find that we can get to 10 miles before the 'bonking starts'. The adaptations have occurred and we move on from there. So, it's ok to do occasional sessions on empty, if our goal is to train the body to access fat at or around mp. But to do regular recovery/maintenance runs on empty is counter productive, especially if we are running for longer than 60 mins.
2. Then there's the double run with limited glycogen intake b/ween runs - this is a great way of training the body to access fat as an energy source at mp.
Do a morning run, not on empty but fully stocked on carbs and whatever else. It needs to be a tough session - something faster than LT. Maybe something like 2x20mins @ LT with a fast finish over the final 5 mins. Then utilise the refuelling window and get in the carbs and protein. Then limit calorie intake during the day(keep on the verge of the shakes but not too bad. In the evening, do an aerobic run of maybe 6-10 miles. It needs to be longer than 35 mins and mustn't be faster than LT. Ideally start off at 35 mins and then build from there.
EDIT(Note: what I mean by aerobic run is, say a 6 miler with 3-4 miles at or around 15 secs slower than mp. This is then increased so that the faster segment is about 6-7 miles - no more. It's very important not to go further than 7 miles at the fast pace on these glycogen depleted double days.)
3. Another way is the long run. The long run is going to include mp/ anything in and around mp; it shouldn't be done on empty- you'll go catabolic too soon and mess up everything. Take whatever we would have on race day as breakfast and then do the final 10 miles at about 15 secs slower than mp. We should have no problem with this. Then build up. Once we start hitting 15 miles at this pace, we should bonk - that's what we want to happen. Then the following week or two weeks later the adaptations will have taken place and we will be ready to extend...
Now, the 10 miles and 15 miles might seem extreme to some people, if that's so, start off at 5 miles and work up.
There are many ways to do this but running recovery runs on empry isn't a good idea.
Then, of course, you have to balance this with learning how to take on fuel - 15g every 15 mins plus a gel etc. But that's where the art comes in...0 -
-
Advertisement
-
Advertisement