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What is middle class?

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Comments

  • #202
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    I know people are saying "If you work for someone else, you're working-class and that's the end of it" but people would not view e.g. me as working-class. That isn't me not wanting to be considered working-class - I really couldn't give a toss what "class" I'm deemed (and as a teenager I'd have probably liked it, having had the auld Pulp Common People insecurity syndrome about being middle-class :pac:) but there is just no way I'd be deemed working-class given my background.


  • #203
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    MrsYelnekoff wrote: »
    I think this country is getting more like India, Just lower class and extremely rich.
    Ireland comparable to India... now that's some leap.


  • #204
    Deer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 592 ✭✭✭Deer


    MrsYelnekoff wrote:
    I think this country is getting more like India, Just lower class and extremely rich.


    Have you actually been to India?


  • #205
    Larry Wildman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,460 ✭✭✭Larry Wildman


    Deer wrote: »
    Have you actually been to India?

    I've been to Ananda up in Dundrum...does that count?


  • #206
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,342 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Deer wrote: »
    Have you actually been to India?

    One can only be truly considered POSH after they've done the return journey by boat, with a cabin facing landward each way


  • #207
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    alias no.9 wrote: »
    One can only be truly considered POSH after they've done the return journey by boat, with a cabin facing landward each way

    Port outward starboard home? That's a possible origin for the word POSH but these meanings change with time.


  • #208
    alias no.9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,342 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Port outward starboard home? That's a possible origin for the word POSH but these meanings change with time.

    It used to be printed on the best return tickets to India


  • #209
    Henlars67
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    If you're really struggling - working class

    If you're getting by reasonably comfortably but with not much disposable income - middle class


  • #210
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    If you think you understand quantum physics you don't understand quantum physics- Richard Feynman.

    It seems the same applies to the class system because we're getting about 20 different explanations for it. So basically the class system is the opinion people have of other people. It is no linnaean system of classification.


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  • #211
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    If you think you understand quantum physics you don't understand quantum physics- Richard Feynman.

    It seems the same applies to the class system because we're getting about 20 different explanations for it. So basically the class system is the opinion people have of other people. It is no linnaean system of classification.
    Of course. I don't believe it has ever been insinuated differently?


  • #212
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Of course. I don't believe it has ever been insinuated differently?

    No but many people present the class system as having a basis in reality.


  • #213
    darkdubh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭darkdubh


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    We're the ones that pay most of the income tax. :)

    Have never understood why anyone would aspire to be working class.


    Is that all there is to being middle class,paying your income tax?


  • #214
    darkdubh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭darkdubh


    wazky wrote: »
    I never understood the term working class, it is usually used to describe people who are not working?


    That is because the term came about in the 19th century to describe people who actually worked manually.


  • #215
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No but many people present the class system as having a basis in reality.
    Of course it does. People's perceptions of you and their reactions as a result of this definitely affect reality.

    Let me give you an example, two college graduates are called to interview for an entry level accounting job at a large firm. They both went to the same college and have the exact same degree. One of them comes from Ballymun and despite years in college never managed to shake off the accent. The other comes from a comfortable though not extravagant home in Foxrock.

    Who is more likely to get the job? That's the reality of class in Ireland.


  • #216
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Of course it does. People's perceptions of you and their reactions as a result of this definitely affect reality.

    Let me give you an example, two college graduates are called for interview for an entry level accounting job at a large firm. They both went to the same college and have the exact same degree. One of them comes from Ballymun and despite years in college never managed to shake off the accent. The other comes from a comfortable though not extravagant home in Foxrock.

    Who is more likely to get the job?

    Science graduates for instance? I can promise 100% in science area of birth makes no difference what so ever. I am living proof of that and have went a lot farther than people from well off areas.


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  • #217
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Science graduates for instance? I can promise 100% in science area of birth makes no difference what so ever. I am living proof of that and have went a lot farther than people from well off areas.
    No you can't.

    If you went farther than people from well off areas congratulations, you've done very well for yourself but don't fall into the trap of thinking people aren't discriminated against for the way talk.


  • #218
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    No you can't.

    If you went farther than people from well off areas congratulations, you've done very well for yourself but don't fall into the trap of thinking people aren't discriminated against for the way talk.

    People who get in a position where they interview people for science jobs say cannot be thick enough to act on prejudice. If you hire someone to work in your lab on the basis of their accent you will be shooting yourself in the foot. It's too technical to act on superstition about accents.

    Would you discriminate based on an accent?


  • #219
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    By the way Iwasfrozen your post implies that prejudice based on perceived class is real and not class itself.


  • #220
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    I don't agree something of a class system (more from a cultural than economic perspective seeing as lots of middle-class people are poor) is in the imagination. Working-class people would acknowledge it exists - it's not a looking-down-on thing simply to acknowledge its existence.


  • #221
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Magaggie wrote: »
    I don't agree something of a class system (more from a cultural than economic perspective seeing as lots of middle-class people are poor) is in the imagination. Working-class people would acknowledge it exists - it's not a looking-down-on thing simply to acknowledge its existence.

    Well I would certainly have my views on it. I think class is earned though. I mean some people are saying people are born middle class. Totally incorrect. You are what you do. Some people think that if you are born to a working class family you will not be working class even if you become a pilot ect. The same people usually think that someone born to middle class professionals is middle class even if they do feck all in life and live of their parents.

    My mate was born to a working class family and since the age of 16 worked towards becoming a pilot. The absolute legend of a man got his private licence then his commercial and now works as a pilot. He was always middle class despite where he came from or his parent's working class professions. Some people would say he isn't because he was born to a working class family. That doesn't make sense to me.


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  • #222
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well I would certainly have my views on it. I think class is earned though. I mean some people are saying people are born middle class. Totally incorrect. You are what you do. Some people think that if you are born to a working class family you will not be working class even if you become a pilot ect. The same people usually think that someone born to middle class professionals is middle class even if they do feck all in life and live of their parents.

    My mate was born to a working class family and since the age of 16 worked towards becoming a pilot. The absolute legend of a man got his private licence then his commercial and now works as a pilot. He was always middle class despite where he came from or his parent's working class professions. Some people would say he isn't because he was born to a working class family. That doesn't make sense to me.

    The issue here is in your mind you associate "working class" with being something bad and "middle class" as being better. They are just terms, get over it.


  • #223
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    People who get in a position where they interview people for science jobs say cannot be thick enough to act on prejudice. If you hire someone to work in your lab on the basis of their accent you will be shooting yourself in the foot. It's too technical to act on superstition about accents.

    Would you discriminate based on an accent?
    You're making the assumption that an educated person cannot be prejudiced, that's simply not true.

    No, but then I don't come from a privileged background either so I would actually be more inclined to look favourably on a person trying to improve their lot. Which I suppose is a form of prejudice in itself.


  • #224
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Macavity. wrote: »
    The issue here is in your mind you associate "working class" with being something bad and "middle class" as being better. They are just terms, get over it.

    No I don't. Where did I say that? I actually associated them both with being constructs and having no defined meaning.


  • #225
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    You're making the assumption that an educated person cannot be prejudiced, that's simply not true.

    No, but then I don't come from a privileged background either so I would actually be more inclined to look favourably on a person trying to improve their lot. Which I suppose is a form of prejudice in itself.

    True. My ex boss wouldn't hire someone from private schools. Yes before anyone says anything he was an absolute scum-bag for doing so.


  • #226
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No I don't. Where did I say that? I actually associated them both with being constructs and having no defined meaning.

    It's implied in the post I quoted.


  • #227
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Macavity. wrote: »
    It's implied in the post I quoted.

    All in your mind dude.


  • #228
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    All in your mind dude.

    Re-read what you posted, then answer my question from yesterday.


  • #229
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Agricola wrote: »
    Middle class - handy number, plenty of perks, status.

    Working class - losing the will to live everyday and/or breaking your back.

    That's it to a T!


  • #230
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Macavity. wrote: »
    Re-read what you posted, then answer my question from yesterday.

    I did before posting. My post was in relation to the class system itself. I was making the point that if a system is based on something logical then the criteria for classification would at least be consistent. I.E someone from a working class job to a middle class one should be viewed by their current job and not their starting point.


  • #231
    W123-80's
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,085 ✭✭✭W123-80's


    In Ireland it's probably a mindset.

    I come from pretty regular background. In terms of class probably working.
    Parents ran a pub in London in 70's. 4 of us born there.
    All moved home in the 80's. Dad truck driver, Mum factory worker.
    All of us are qualified to third level.
    Two of us have masters.
    All four of us do ok..not minted but comfortable. No one in negative equity more by luck than good guidance.

    I would never class myself as middle class. I am working class. I work, I get paid. I am nice to people.


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  • #232
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    W123-80's wrote: »
    I would never class myself as middle class. I am working class. I work, I get paid. I am nice to people.
    Yes, the above could only be working-class and not middle-class. :confused:


  • #233
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    Lux23 wrote: »
    That's it to a T!
    Working-class people are losing the will to live everyday? I would say that's hyperbole, not anything to a T.


  • #234
    Shakespeare's Sister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,412 ✭✭✭Shakespeare's Sister


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well I would certainly have my views on it. I think class is earned though. I mean some people are saying people are born middle class. Totally incorrect. You are what you do. Some people think that if you are born to a working class family you will not be working class even if you become a pilot ect. The same people usually think that someone born to middle class professionals is middle class even if they do feck all in life and live of their parents.

    My mate was born to a working class family and since the age of 16 worked towards becoming a pilot. The absolute legend of a man got his private licence then his commercial and now works as a pilot. He was always middle class despite where he came from or his parent's working class professions. Some people would say he isn't because he was born to a working class family. That doesn't make sense to me.
    Yeh I guess when you're talking about that particular context, it's really up to the person themselves how they define who they are in terms of "class" (if they want to).


  • #235
    Sir Arthur Daley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭Sir Arthur Daley


    Middle class is getting a dessert after having a sit in big mac looking out at the people in their cars having their drive through €2 menu deals.


  • #236
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    True. My ex boss wouldn't hire someone from private schools. Yes before anyone says anything he was an absolute scum-bag for doing so.
    Not that I would never hire someone from a private school, but I do have sympathy (let's say a soft spot) for people who are genuinely trying to raise their station in life because I've been there and I know from experience it means so much when just one person cuts you some slack and gives you an opportunity.


  • #237
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    Not that I would never hire someone from a private school, but I do have sympathy (let's say a soft spot) for people who are genuinely trying to raise their station in life because I've been there and I know from experience it means so much when just one person cuts you some slack.

    Yes I would be the same so I guess I am prejudice. All it takes is one person to see the talent in you.


  • #238
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,212 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    "Middle Class" is just a term people use to big themselves up.
    I know long termed unemployed people on the dole state they are "middle class" (for the record I am also on the dole too)


  • #239
    policarp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,667 ✭✭✭policarp


    W123-80's wrote: »
    In Ireland it's probably a mindset.

    I come from pretty regular background. In terms of class probably working.
    Parents ran a pub in London in 70's. 4 of us born there.
    All moved home in the 80's. Dad truck driver, Mum factory worker.
    All of us are qualified to third level.
    Two of us have masters.
    All four of us do ok..not minted but comfortable. No one in negative equity more by luck than good guidance.

    I would never class myself as middle class. I am working class. I work, I get paid. I am nice to people.

    Middle class to me is anyone who doesn't have to get their hands dirty.
    Upper class is the gentry. Landlords. Living off the sweat of their tenants.
    Working class are the tenants.


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