Way to go Sinn Fein

28-05-2014 10:46PM

I particularly hate the reverence FG have for supposedly "respectable, sensible" people in suits working in the EU machine and Dept of Finance (the latter have escaped the flak they deserve for such disastrous incompetence over the last 15 years).

The Govt was so easily scared off the idea of raising taxes on the higher income bracket with claims that the higher earners would all pack up and leave en masse (despite a good percentage of them probably being in negative equity, having families, kids in schools etc).

But yet the Govt took the option of cutting special needs services as a way to "save" money in schools because they knew special needs children wouldn't be able to pack up and leave.

The seem to have too much reverence for the wrong sort of people in expensive suits

comongethappy · 28-05-2014 10:47PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Tell me exactly why it is not plausible - without being sneering or condescending if you can manage that?

Its a struggle.

Its like this.
The government reduced the deficit by about 3bn per yr since 2010.

That €3bn annual adjustment has caused the "destruction of society" (your words).

Your "plan" would be to reduce the total pay & pension bill by approx €8bn to €9bn in the first year & every year. (Out of a 2009/2010 pay & pension bill of just over €19bn......then you pay them ave ind wage x 280k PS workers).

Now, if cutting 3bn took massive effort, industrial unrest, court challenges & the "destruction of society", what would a 3-fold increase do as per your plan?

I must commend you Banshide.
Even the most hawkish cost cutters wouldnt be as extreme as you!

Not at all Sinn Fein like at all.

I'm just not sure the country would go along with you.

3 x the austerity in 1/4 the time..... That's about makes the tea-party look pinko!

Banjo String · 28-05-2014 10:48PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So we should cut the number of TDs? I wouldn't be against that.

Don't ask questions you already know the answer to.

So they're not professionals?

Glad that was put to bed and you didn't drag it out.

To answer your question though, plenty of professionals have suffered losses, I know of an accountant who was on a 3, then 2 day week, now he's selling aloe vera products FFS.

Bannasidhe · 28-05-2014 10:51PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So the ordinary TD has his salary cut by 45%? That's overly harsh don't you think? What other professional has experienced that level of cut?

'Professional' is I think flattering most of them tbh. They managed to get more people to tick a boy next to their name often with a large party machine doing their PR. They have no 'professional' qualifications for their jobs - some of them don't even seem aware of what legislation is in force *coff enda coff*

The majority of them don't even make any decisions - they vote how the party whip tells them.

Under 26 year olds had their JSB cut by 44 euro to 100 - that close enough to 45% of income for you?

Payments to the most vulnerable (pensioners mostly excepted as the government is afraid of them) have been cut and this is justified as their rates were increased during the boom and are out of line with most of Europe - surely the same argument applies to TDs?

What other 'professional' is imposing savage cuts on others across most of society?

DubVelo · 28-05-2014 10:51PM

Banjo String wrote: »

So they're not professionals?

Glad that was put to bed and you didn't drag it out.

To answer your question though, plenty of professionals have suffered losses, I know of an accountant who was on a 3, then 2 day week, now he's selling aloe vera products FFS.

Oh all accountants are doomed though. I read it somewhere. To be replaced by robots or something.

Iwasfrozen · 28-05-2014 10:53PM

Banjo String wrote: »

So they're not professionals?

Glad that was put to bed and you didn't drag it out.

To answer your question though, plenty of professionals have suffered losses, I know of an accountant who was on a 3, then 2 day week, now he's selling aloe vera products FFS.

Yes, they are.

Right but those are cuts to hours worked not pay, his pay didn't fall be 45%.

DubVelo wrote: »

Oh all accountants are doomed though. I read it somewhere. To be replaced by robots or something.

We're all to be replaced by robots, don't worry about it we'll all be dead by then.

DubVelo · 28-05-2014 10:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I particularly hate the reverence FG have for supposedly "respectable, sensible" people in suits working in the EU machine and Dept of Finance (the latter have escaped the flak they deserve for such disastrous incompetence over the last 15 years).

The Govt was so easily scared off the idea of raising taxes on the higher income bracket with claims that the higher earners would all pack up and leave en masse (despite a good percentage of them probably being in negative equity, having families, kids in schools etc).

But yet the Govt took the option of cutting special needs services as a way to "save" money in schools because they knew special needs children wouldn't be able to pack up and leave.

The seem to have too much reverence for the wrong sort of people in expensive suits

They are soulless administrators who would feel helpless without someone higher up telling them what to do.

From Home Rule to Troika Rule, it's mad...

Banjo String · 28-05-2014 10:56PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, they are.

Like I said, subjective term. Nepotism often plays it's part too, but anyway....

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Right but those are cuts to hours worked not pay, his pay didn't fall be 45%.

Well, being made redundant tends to cut your salary by 100% until you find more work.

Bannasidhe · 28-05-2014 10:59PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Its a struggle.

Its like this.
The government reduced the deficit by about 3bn per yr since 2010.

That €3bn annual adjustment has caused the "destruction of society" (your words).

Your "plan" would be to reduce the total pay & pension bill by approx €8bn to €9bn in the first year & every year. (Out of a 2009/2010 pay & pension bill of just over €19bn......then you pay them ave ind wage x 280k PS workers).

Now, if cutting 3bn took massive effort, industrial unrest, court challenges & the "destruction of society", what would a 3-fold increase do as per your plan?

I must commend you Banshide.
Even the most hawkish cost cutters wouldnt be as extreme as you!

Not at all Sinn Fein like at all.

I'm just not sure the country would go along with you.

3 x the austerity in 1/4 the time..... That's about makes the tea-party look pinko!

I am not, nor have I ever been a member of Sinn Fein so I'm not sure what you are on about there.

I was a member of the Labour Party and I apologise for that.

Once again - in case you missed it the numerous other times I said it

I am specifically talking about how government could have lead by example which is why I am talking about TDs remunerations.
I am not, at this point, discussing anything else.

Not the deficit.
Not the loan bail out.
Not the bondholders.

Just the failure of the government to impose shwinging cuts on themselves while telling us we are all in this together.

Do you think a back bencher who simply votes the way the whip tell them is worth over 90k a year plus expenses?

Chucky the tree · 28-05-2014 11:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I particularly hate the reverence FG have for supposedly "respectable, sensible" people in suits working in the EU machine and Dept of Finance (the latter have escaped the flak they deserve for such disastrous incompetence over the last 15 years).

The Govt was so easily scared off the idea of raising taxes on the higher income bracket with claims that the higher earners would all pack up and leave en masse (despite a good percentage of them probably being in negative equity, having families, kids in schools etc).

But yet the Govt took the option of cutting special needs services as a way to "save" money in schools because they knew special needs children wouldn't be able to pack up and leave.

The seem to have too much reverence for the wrong sort of people in expensive suits

I do find it funny how people have talked about how the brightest and best are leaving this country yet they don't think that an increase in income tax on high earners won't have any effect on this.

A Dub in Glasgo · 28-05-2014 11:03PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, they are.
.

Only in the loosest sense imaginable when referred to employment professions

DubVelo · 28-05-2014 11:09PM

Ha!

Faced with rising deficits that threatened to bankrupt the country, Lithuania cut public spending by 30 percent — including slashing public sector wages 20 to 30 percent and reducing pensions by as much as 11 percent. Even the prime minister, Andrius Kubilius, took a pay cut of 45 percent.

comongethappy · 28-05-2014 11:11PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am specifically talking about how government could have lead by example

Aah..... My bad.

I had no idea that public servants & retirees were "the government".

And a €9bn annual cut is just to lead by example.

Shudder to think what the real cuts are after your €9bn lesson in optics!

Bannasidhe · 28-05-2014 11:14PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I do find it funny how people have talked about how the brightest and best are leaving this country yet they don't think that an increase in income tax on high earners won't have any effect on this.

Given the number of high earners in the top tiers of the Civil/public service good luck to them getting an equally generous package in another jurisdiction - after all, there are only so many cushy EU numbers to go round.

Seems to be a belief there are people out there across the world just gagging to employ Irish 'high earners' on equally generous salaries...apparently no other country produces people of such calibre as we do so they are all bound to be snapped up. Go Us!

I asked a few high earners (over 150 k pa) I know what they would do if tax was increased - they said they would bitch, moan and then drop the kids to school/ granny/childminder and then go to work as usual.

Just like people did in the 80s when we had extremely high tax rates.

Graduate from uni aged 24 with a double first lets look at some of the wonderful choices out there:
dole @ 100 euro pw
Jobsbridge @ 238 pw
Emigrate...

Gee...I wonder why they are leaving...

Bannasidhe · 28-05-2014 11:16PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Aah..... My bad.

I had no idea that public servants & retirees were "the government".

And a €9bn annual cut is just to lead by example.

Shudder to think what the real cuts are after your €9bn lesson in optics!

Are they involved in the business of government? Yes.

What they are not is in parliament.

Although come to think of it - I seem to recall mainly referring to TDS who are in parliament....

Chucky the tree · 28-05-2014 11:29PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Given the number of high earners in the top tiers of the Civil/public service good luck to them getting an equally generous package in another jurisdiction - after all, there are only so many cushy EU numbers to go round.

Seems to be a belief there are people out there across the world just gagging to employ Irish 'high earners' on equally generous salaries...apparently no other country produces people of such calibre as we do so they are all bound to be snapped up. Go Us!

I asked a few high earners (over 150 k pa) I know what they would do if tax was increased - they said they would bitch, moan and then drop the kids to school/ granny/childminder and then go to work as usual.

Just like people did in the 80s when we had extremely high tax rates.

Graduate from uni aged 24 with a double first lets look at some of the wonderful choices out there:
dole @ 100 euro pw
Jobsbridge @ 238 pw
Emigrate...

Gee...I wonder why they are leaving...

I doubt there are many people with a first who are finding it impossible to get a job. So we didn't have high emigration in the 80s? Of course people with kids will stay, it's the younger ones who will leave. What happens in 10-15 years time when those are retiring?

Most won't get an equal 1:1 package else where, but they'll get a much better standard of living.

Dan_Solo · 28-05-2014 11:32PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I do find it funny how people have talked about how the brightest and best are leaving this country yet they don't think that an increase in income tax on high earners won't have any effect on this.

The only group I have really heard of for whom this is actually happening is medics. I can't say I'd honestly be that bothered if megabucks lawyers or city managers decide to up sticks. Or consultant medics either for that matter.
Does anybody live in Sweden at all with their 65% tax I wonder?

Dan_Solo · 28-05-2014 11:34PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

What happens in 10-15 years time when those are retiring?

You think most people have their kids in their 50s?
You don't actually know the first thing about any of this, do you?

Chucky the tree · 28-05-2014 11:34PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The only group I have really heard of for whom this is actually happening is medics. I can't say I'd honestly be that bothered if megabucks lawyers or city managers decide to up sticks. Or consultant medics either for that matter.
Does anybody live in Sweden at all with their 65% tax I wonder?

When high tax actually get you decent services then it's no problem. When it gets you nothing then it is a problem. Also when every pays income tax it's not a huge problem either.

So you'd be happy not to have any consultants? Right...

Chucky the tree · 28-05-2014 11:36PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You think most people have their kids in their 50s?
You don't actually know the first thing about any of this, do you?

No, I do think 50 year olds have families though.

Dan_Solo · 28-05-2014 11:37PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

When high tax actually get you decent services then it's no problem. When it gets you nothing then it is a problem. Also when every pays income tax it's not a huge problem either.

So you'd be happy not to have any consultants? Right...

Oh, there's plenty of them left. They just aren't getting paid as much. Now they have to slum it on German and French consultant rates instead of US or Canada.

comongethappy · 28-05-2014 11:38PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Are they involved in the business of government? Yes.

What they are not is in parliament.

Although come to think of it - I seem to recall mainly referring to TDS who are in parliament....

Pretty confident that if you spoke to a public servant, they might dispute being members of the government.

Your distraction aside, you DID refer to forcing all PS workers onto the average ind wage.
Through an "emergency powers" law, as you said (not been used since WW2 I think).

As you said, 3bn adjustment "destroyed society".
Your " Bannsidhe Plan" to cut 3 times what FG did will cause Armageddon for sure!

Dan_Solo · 28-05-2014 11:39PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No, I do think 50 year olds have families though.

They do, but I think you'll find proposing that all parents will be retiring in 10-15 years, which is what you did, is a bit rubbish.

Karl Stein · 28-05-2014 11:40PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

When [high tax] gets you nothing then it is a problem.

When you think people who pay 'high tax' get nothing in return you have a problem.

It's a bit like saying 'the biggest fish in the lake are getting nothing from it' which requires suspension of reason.

Dan_Solo · 28-05-2014 11:44PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Your distraction aside, you DID refer to forcing all PS workers onto the average ind wage.
Through an "emergency powers" law, as you said (not been used since WW2 I think).

Of course the government can impose this. They recently imposed a pay cut on PS > €65000. They can do what they like, when they like.
Except tax million euro pensions seemingly.

Chucky the tree · 28-05-2014 11:50PM

Karl Stein wrote: »

When you think people who pay 'high tax' get nothing in return you have a problem.

It's a bit like saying 'the biggest fish in the lake are getting nothing from it' which requires suspension of reason.

What do the get in return?

Dan_Solo · 28-05-2014 11:54PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

What do the get in return?

Oh, just food and oxygen I guess. Trifles like that.

Chucky the tree · 28-05-2014 11:55PM

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Oh, just food and oxygen I guess. Trifles like that.

:pac:

Idbatterim · 28-05-2014 11:59PM

Karl, I see the angle you are trying to come at it from, I just dont agree whatsoever, those levels are tax are not tolerated anywhere with the exception of the Scandinavian countries where you get some sort of value for what you pay in. You get nothing nobody else doesnt get, in fact you lose a lot of entitlements once you start working and /or earn over a certain threshold. If you become unemployed it doesnt matter if you have contributed nothing or millions, likewise or as good as with the OAP.

Bannasidhe · 29-05-2014 12:01AM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I doubt there are many people with a first who are finding it impossible to get a job. So we didn't have high emigration in the 80s? Of course people with kids will stay, it's the younger ones who will leave. What happens in 10-15 years time when those are retiring?

Most won't get an equal 1:1 package else where, but they'll get a much better standard of living.

I don't doubt it. I have seen enough of my own high achieving students leave to be in no doubt. We struggle to get 1:1s to stay and do post grad in Ireland because we can't compete - we have nothing to offer them

I was one of those who left in the 80s - what does that have to do with now?
The world was a very different place then and Ireland was intent on staying in the 1950s - a lot of people left and not all for economic reasons. London was packed with Irish leftys who left in disgust over the 8th Amendment and gaymen who just wanted to have sex legally and lesbians because...well...Ireland...
Many returned due to Robinson's election and The Rainbow Coalition seeming to signal a liberalisation of Irish society. It meant a cut in salary for many - myself included, but we wanted to be home - to be Irish in Ireland, Ireland was changing and learning to accept diversity. We wanted our children to be Irish.

Now our children are leaving - not because they want to but because they can see no future here.

'Standard of living' isn't everything. Some people find family and community more important.

Way to go Sinn Fein

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