Way to go Sinn Fein

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Was it not possible to declare a National Emergency and bring in legislation that all salaries/pensions paid out of the national purse were capped at the average industrial wage for the duration?

Hey, at least all the people who wonder what it would take before Irish people start rioting in the streets would have had their answer!

Zubeneschamali

Idbatterim wrote: »

Bannasidhe, they could have created a new temporary tax band for "high earners" say 100k plus.

As long as they also did something to cut the deficit, a bit of window dressing like that might be good PR.

Idbatterim

As long as they also did something to cut the deficit, a bit of window dressing like that might be good PR.

I am not saying I would agree with a move like that, I think the income tax rates here on the marginal rate are insane immoral and penal.

Bannasidhe

Idbatterim wrote: »

the standard of living here is still extremely high, of course it is human nature to just look at ones own circumstance and compare what you have now to then. But we have borrowed tens of billions to avoid serious austerity for any sector of society. Except those who were made unemployed and particularly if they had debts, they unfortunately would know all about serious austerity. Take a look at welfare here v say Britain or Germany for example, it is massively more than they pay out and they arent on a receiving end of a bail out.

The cost of living here is extremely high too.

Nor are comparisons with Germany (who received an enormous bailout after WWII via the Marshall Plan but that has been forgotten) and the UK are not valid as their economies are structured differently - both have large indigenous industries for example.

We need indigenous industries rather than remain reliant on multinationals but red tape and lack of credit availability here insures that is unlikely to happen. That is within the power of government to change - they have failed to do so. Consequently Irish businesses are continuing to close.

It's not just the unemployed who are feeling the pinch - middle earnering home owners, especially those who do not have tracker mortgages, are being squeezed by the banks, hit bythe government and are now dreading water charges hot on the heels of the HHC and the LPT. They can't draw breathe.
Tenants are seeing rents - especially in Dublin - soar, and Cork isn't far behind.

My son and his partner both work full-time and he has two kids from a previous relationship - he recently needed to buy a car so he can collect his kids for his weekends with them. Between rent, tax, levies, charges, ever upward utility costs etc and maintenance he had to borrow from his grandfather to buy a car. Not an expensive car - a 99 fiesta that cost less than a grand - he could just afford the insurance and compulsory driving lessons but a cheap car seemed beyond the reach of a couple who work hard and rarely socialise. He admits that the fact that he doesn't have to pay the LPT is a plus but is dreading water charges.

It's not just the unemployed who are hurting and there is no end in sight.

dxhound2005

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Of course there was another way. There is always another way.

And if the doctor was sitting there eating foie grass and chain smoking while lecturing me - I would seek a second opinion.

Of course it could not be done painlessly - but the pain could have bee more evenly distributed and should first have been felt by those leading the charge.

Was it not possible to declare a National Emergency and bring in legislation that all salaries/pensions paid out of the national purse were capped at the average industrial wage for the duration?

Is it too much to ask that a government leads by example?

If all the 166 TD's were on €20 grand a year that would still not make the "they never took any pain" brigade happy. In fact if the Oireachtas was done away with completely it might save enough to pay our Social Welfare for about two days. Spending and employee numbers have been slashed in the public service as was promised even while the population is increasing faster than anywhere in Europe. And TD's and Senators and Ministers have had their salaries reduced. Maybe the solution is to increase the salary for a TD to €1 million to see if it would attract the sort of talent which can earn multiples of that in the private sector. The government has done away with layers of local authorities and tried to abolish the Seanad to save money but apparently that is a bad thing now.

Some TD's making a virtue of living on €35 grand a year doesn't impress me. Especially when it leads to the SF party leader having to go cap in hand to an American millionare for a digout. He has allowed himself to be beggared by his own party taking his wages and ran into trouble with the mortgage on one of his houses. Absolutely riduculous nonsense. Imagine if his constituency rival poor oul Peter Fitzpatrick got a digout from a Fine Gael rancher to help him in his current travails. This place would be full of "cronyism" denouncements but when Gerry does it its is just a friend helping out. Hypocracy of the highest order.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/fitzpatrick-suffers-broken-hip-during-charity-cycle-fall-30291505.html

K-9

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What people don't seem to appreciate is that there is a significant left vote in this country and rather than resorting to childish name calling and polemic they should engage with that demographic.

The left is not going away nor is it extreme in Ireland- however, refusal to engage and the tactics of sneering dismissal will push parts of the left to extremes - as we have seen happen with the right in Europe.

At this point the constant name calling looks more and more like fear.

The majority of the electorate are socially liberal and economically centrist or center right. Now somebody will no doubt point out the exceptions to that, socially our abortion laws stand out out like a sore thumb for example, but I think recent elections and changes like civil partnerships would back me up.

The problem is we had years of reducing taxes from 1987 to 2006, stuff like no tax on the minimum wage, a ridiculously high threshold for people paying PRSI, leading to a total wipe out of the Social Welfare fund in bad times, Mortgage Interest relief on mortgage interest of €20,000 (probably about a Million Euro mortgage was tax payer subsidised), basically the majority of the electorate bought into the old PD reduce taxes line. Even SF indulged in it in 2007, the same auction politics as all the others.

You now have Socialist parties, SF with an increasingly smaller and smaller s, not wanting property and water taxes. Now there are issues over their implementation, but I've no doubt even if it was a perfect system, SF and the Socialists would still oppose it. I don't see any ideological reason for them to oppose it, it's pure populism.

Populism that FF got derided for in this thread, and rightly so, but when SF do it, it's sticking it to the man!

That isn't a good message to send out to an electorate if they want real left wing politics to prosper, its populism. Socialism should be about responsibility, good benefits in society but high tax rates to pay for them.

I realise I'm in a minority with this opinion, I couldn't see why economically they kept reducing the income tax base 10 years ago. The simple reason was the electorate wanted income tax cuts for nice things, but also first rate Health, education, social and police services. It was always going to end in tears.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Seeing as all the parties other than FG are economic illiterates and the electorate may well throw their toys out of the pram, I wouldnt hold my breath!

The problem you have is that more right wing economic views like that are the minority in the electorate. People want lower tax rates but they also want decent welfare rates, people who need medical cards getting them, good roads, water, no homeless, job programmes etc. etc.

Dan_Solo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Was it not possible to declare a National Emergency and bring in legislation that all salaries/pensions paid out of the national purse were capped at the average industrial wage for the duration?

If you look at the documentation regarding the set up of NAMA, the government has pretty much already assumed complete direct control of every aspect of the Irish economy.
Like I always said, it's amazing how people scream communism when public service wages go up, but it's okey dokey as long as the tax billions are being pi55ed into propping up developers.

Bannasidhe

dxhound2005 wrote: »

If all the 166 TD's were on €20 grand a year that would still not make the "they never took any pain" brigade happy. In fact if the Oireachtas was done away with completely it might save enough to pay our Social Welfare for about two days. Spending and employee numbers have been slashed in the public service as was promised even while the population is increasing faster than anywhere in Europe. And TD's and Senators and Ministers have had their salaries reduced. Maybe the solution is to increase the salary for a TD to €1 million to see if it would attract the sort of talent which can earn multiples of that in the private sector. The government has done away with layers of local authorities and tried to abolish the Seanad to save money but apparently that is a bad thing now.

Some TD's making a virtue of living on €35 grand a year doesn't impress me. Especially when it leads to the SF party leader having to go cap in hand to an American millionare for a digout. He has allowed himself to be beggared by his own party taking his wages and ran into trouble with the mortage on one of his houses. Absolutely riduculous nonsense. Imagine if his constituency rival poor oul Peter Fitzpatrick got a digout from a Fine Gael rancher to help him in his current travails. This place would be full of "cronyism" denouncements but when Gerry does it its is just a friend helping out. Hypocracy of the highest order.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/argus/news/fitzpatrick-suffers-broken-hip-during-charity-cycle-fall-30291505.html

And herein lies the problem.
It doesn't matter how much money is saved.
It doesn't matter how it effects the lifestyle of TDs - just like it doesn't matter to government how austerity is affecting ordinary people.

What matters is that members of government are seen to be sharing the pain and leading by example.

Their complete and utter failure to do so is to SF's advantage.

road_high

comongethappy wrote: »

I would doubt the people will throw away all the progress made in the last 3 years on a whim.

The next GE will be fought on the economy almost entirely.
SF will struggle there as they always tend to do.

Definitely. I honestly can't see a scenario where people would want Pierce Doherty or the likes in Finance, could you imagine it?
Realistically what will happen is this govt, which has gotten a battering (no surprise considering the decisions that had to take), will re-focus and I'd imagine a more human face put to the fore. SF's economic policy will be placed under a very fine microscope and credibility (or lack there of) scrutinised.
We will also see SF in control of various councils locally which will be very interesting indeed to watch them plan, prepare and work within the confines of various budgets rather than being hurlers on the ditch. For instance, I heard one new-bie here in Carlow/KK on the local radio make a very dangerous promise to reduce the LPT in half already. I'm very interested to see what services he will close down now to achieve this, and what kind of lay-offs will/would follow at Council level.

dxhound2005

Bannasidhe wrote: »

And herein lies the problem.
It doesn't matter how much money is saved.
It doesn't matter how it effects the lifestyle of TDs - just like it doesn't matter to government how austerity is affecting ordinary people.

What matters is that members of government are seen to be sharing the pain and leading by example.

Their complete and utter failure to do so is to SF's advantage.

Ordinary people are getting €20 billion every year in Social Welfare payments. What matters to them is that they get their money every week or every month. They would all like to be on the same money as the 166 TD's no doubt but that would mean redesigning society. Lynn Boylan was asked what was she going to do in the European Parliament. Her answer was "I heard a lot of anger on the doorsteps". So I have no idea what she is going to do.

Santa Cruz

Primary school teacher told me last night of situation in her school. One family, father and mother not working, have taken the three kids out of school for a two week break in the Canaries. No fear that the hard working people who get out of bed every morning could afford this. The Left and SF would be the first whinging if that families welfare payments was checked out.

K-9

road_high wrote: »

Definitely. I honestly can't see a scenario where people would want Pierce Doherty or the likes in Finance, could you imagine it?
Realistically what will happen is this govt, which has gotten a battering (no surprise considering the decisions that had to take), will re-focus and I'd imagine a more human face put to the fore. SF's economic policy will be placed under a very fine microscope and credibility (or lack there of) scrutinised.
We will also see SF in control of various councils locally which will be very interesting indeed to watch them plan, prepare and work within the confines of various budgets rather than being hurlers on the ditch. For instance, I heard one new-bie here in Carlow/KK on the local radio make a very dangerous promise to reduce the LPT in half already. I'm very interested to see what services he will close down now to achieve this, and what kind of lay-offs will/would follow at Council level.

There were similar concerns when Ruari Quinn got Finance in 94 and I think it was Brown in the UK in 97. When it comes down to actually being in power Pearse will have to recognise economic reality and calm the nerves of the markets.

I've noticed he has toned out the rhetoric in the last year or so. Less burn the bondholders stuff and more stuff about medical cards and such like which they are right to raise, and less tax everything rich that moves and there's one for everybody else in the audience empty words.

Dan_Solo

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Primary school teacher told me last night of situation in her school. One family, father and mother not working, have taken the three kids out of school for a two week break in the Canaries. No fear that the hard working people who get out of bed every morning could afford this. The Left and SF would be the first whinging if that families welfare payments was checked out.

Extrapolate anecdote to generalization?
Always convincing.

Valetta

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Primary school teacher told me last night of situation in her school. One family, father and mother not working, have taken the three kids out of school for a two week break in the Canaries. No fear that the hard working people who get out of bed every morning could afford this. The Left and SF would be the first whinging if that families welfare payments was checked out.

Obviously not true.

road_high

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Primary school teacher told me last night of situation in her school. One family, father and mother not working, have taken the three kids out of school for a two week break in the Canaries. No fear that the hard working people who get out of bed every morning could afford this. The Left and SF would be the first whinging if that families welfare payments was checked out.

One of the biggest failing of the current govt is their failure to reform the welfare state. Reward people who work and contribute. Link dole payments to your contributions. Reduce it drastically as time elapses. No one has a right to be on the dole for years on end with no solution as to how they will get a job/work.
The Entitlement culture is so ingrained in Irish society now, it's actually scary to be honest. That stood out for me following this last election campaign.

Idbatterim

People want lower tax rates

the only tax here that is excessive is the marginal rate. Vat is a bit OTT. Do we want to do dismantling the vague semblance of a tax base we now have after building it back up after FF ripped it down? A property boom, reliance on one off transaction tax i.e. stamp duty and annihilating the tax base along with outrageous spending got us to exactly this point...

dxhound2005

K-9 wrote: »

There were similar concerns when Ruari Quinn got Finance in 94 and I think it was Brown in the UK in 97. When it comes down to actually being in power Pearse will have to recognise economic reality and calm the nerves of the markets.

I've noticed he has toned out the rhetoric in the last year or so. Less burn the bondholders stuff and more stuff about medical cards and such like which they are right to raise, and less tax everything rich that moves and there's one for everybody else in the audience empty words.

Was it him or the other Donegal TD that said he would not pay the Household Charge? It would be an odd state of affairs to have a Minister for Finance breaking tax law. A number of other SF TD's possibly including Mary Lou said they would not be paying either. We need an update as to what happened to them.

The whole SF party funding is an area that should come under scrutiny. Any investigate journalists out there? Standards in Public Office commission requires that individuals who make donations to political parties and parties who receive donations have to declare them. I can't find any record of either eventhough SF is supposed to be getting large donations from their politicians.

comongethappy

road_high wrote: »

One of the biggest failing of the current govt is their failure to reform the welfare state. Reward people who work and contribute. Link dole payments to your contributions. Reduce it drastically as time elapses. No one has a right to be on the dole for years on end with no solution as to how they will get a job/work.
The Entitlement culture is so ingrained in Irish society now, it's actually scary to be honest. That stood out for me following this last election campaign.

Reform has happened though there is always room for more.

The most flabbergasting thing about our welfare state is disability.

Apparently 1 in 8 adults in Ireland are disabled to the point where employment is impossible.

Now, statisticly considering that many disabled people do work, the numbers on "disability" is surely a statistical impossibility?

JSB & JSA is policed, however the vast numbers of apparently disabled people is not.

.jacksparrow.

That's it punish people who have went to college made the effort to better themselves and have a good life.

But reward those who decided to do nothing with themselves except take the easy way through life relying on others for handouts.

Entitlements, nobody is entitled to anything in this life unless you work hard for it.

Idbatterim

Lynn Boylan was asked what was she going to do in the European Parliament. Her answer was "I heard a lot of anger on the doorsteps". So I have no idea what she is going to do.

I find it staggering, the lack of knowledge and dare I say it ignorance from elected officials or those going for election and when it comes to economics or an understanding of even basis finances, their knowledge on it would be less than the average on boards.ie, it is truly scary.

The below was under comments in the indo today, agree with some of the points...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fg-warning-shot-to-labour-no-easing-up-on-budget-cuts-30310193.html

Can one of you geniuses answer this question (author of article included) ... Why are we managing strict budget cut backs? A hint is that no, it's not the usual obvious answer of FF bankrupting the country (although fair play voting them in as a majority in the local elections, your stupidity and short memories will be rewarded soon enough again), but to put it in a type of simplistic language that people even from the likes of "people before profit" can understand, we are spending billions more than we are taking in. So would you like Noonan to just not pay social welfare and public sector wages, or would you like him to cut a further €2 billion in the budget?

And "burn the bondholders" language is to expose yourself as an absolute numpty. The money pumped into banks in this country pales in comparison to the €80 billion+ we've borrowed just to make day-to-day expenses (social welfare + the electricity bill in the Dail...literally).



The fact that so many stupid people vote is the best argument for a dictatorship I have ever seen. Ireland has convinced me we need dictatorships. The voting public are stupid and have no comprehension of simple current affairs, let alone the "complexities" of economics, such as the debit side of the ledger being greater than the credit side.



It's not Noonan's fault, it's your own fault for voting in and supporting the Government you did, so now live with the consequences of your own decisions and stop looking for someone to blame. I couldn't care less about this Government, but the stupidity of the Irish people leads me to believe this nation is not capable of Governing it's self.

Idbatterim

take a read of the below comongethappy, in relation to the number of disability claimants here, it is truly shocking!

http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2013/04/04/the-mystery-of-disability

Dan_Solo

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The whole SF party funding is an area that should come under scrutiny. Any investigate journalists out there? Standards in Public Office commission requires that individuals who make donations to political parties and parties who receive donations have to declare them. I can't find any record of either eventhough SF is supposed to be getting large donations from their politicians.

What difference would it make if they declared them or not, even assuming they are not doing so? They are donating to the party they are already in so it's hardly a conflict of interest.

martingriff

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Of course there was another way. There is always another way.

And if the doctor was sitting there eating foie grass and chain smoking while lecturing me - I would seek a second opinion.

Of course it could not be done painlessly - but the pain could have bee more evenly distributed and should first have been felt by those leading the charge.

Was it not possible to declare a National Emergency and bring in legislation that all salaries/pensions paid out of the national purse were capped at the average industrial wage for the duration?

Is it too much to ask that a government leads by example?

Damn I would have had gotten a pay rise instead of a cut count me in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

K-9

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Was it him or the other Donegal TD that said he would not pay the Household Charge? It would be an odd state of affairs to have a Minister for Finance breaking tax law. A number of other SF TD's possibly including Mary Lou said they would not be paying either. We need an update as to what happened to them.

IIRC one of the SF TD's on Vincent Browne said they ended up paying it. Something about the arrears building up and up and leaving ordinary people with huge bills.

comongethappy wrote: »

Reform has happened though there is always room for more.

The most flabbergasting thing about our welfare state is disability.

Apparently 1 in 8 adults in Ireland are disabled to the point where employment is impossible.

Now, statisticly considering that many disabled people do work, the numbers on "disability" is surely a statistical impossibility?

JSB & JSA is policed, however the vast numbers of apparently disabled people is not.

The other problem is new claimants who genuinely need it are finding it harder and harder to qualify.

Its Labour stupid claim not to cut basic welfare cuts. I'd have took a tenner cut in JB (when I was on it) before taking medical cards of people who genuinely need it, addressing genuine housing needs, stuff like that. The popular, easy approach won out. FG the same, promise no income tax rises, but still keep tax credits the same and introduce other stealth taxes, all to justify some catchy election pledge.

The Indo made a good point (ahem) today, Labour protecting the minimum wage but backing jobridge. Typical of the double standards and populism in Irish politics.

comongethappy

I agree there.

Though I've never voted Lab & take no issue with the minimum wage.

Allowing the insidious greed of 'work without pay' get its claws in the labour market was despicable.

martingriff

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What difference would it make if they declared them or not, even assuming they are not doing so? They are donating to the party they are already in so it's hardly a conflict of interest.

No but the thing is for me anyway is they make a big song and dance of only accepting a certain wage however what happens is they get paid the same wage as any TD (not in government) and donate the rest to the part. If they really wanted to accept a certain wage they should make it they only get paid that much a decleration or something.

Now that SF and the other parties/independents and in power who campained on anto austerity I hope they know (as well as who voted for them) what power they actually have in other words they can vote to plus or minus the property tax by 15% a year that is it. So I hope they take an active role for what the councils can do such as roads sidewalks etc.

martingriff

comongethappy wrote: »

I agree there.

Though I've never voted Lab & take no issue with the minimum wage.

Allowing the insidious greed of 'work without pay' get its claws in the labour market was despicable.

I disagree with this to an extent. Jobbridge is been used and abused to much however I think working for some time to get some experience without pay is okay up to a point. I did it was it **** at the time yes it was but I felt it helped me know what a particular job is like

Santa Cruz

Valetta wrote: »

Obviously not true.

Which shows your ignorance of the difficulties ordinary WORKING people are facing with Property Tax USC etc.

comongethappy

martingriff wrote: »

I disagree with this to an extent. Jobbridge is been used and abused to much however I think working for some time to get some experience without pay is okay up to a point. I did it was it **** at the time yes it was but I felt it helped me know what a particular job is like

Fair enough.... Up to a point.

18 moths though..... Just wrong.

Santa Cruz

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Extrapolate anecdote to generalization?
Always convincing.

Particularly when it is true and replicated throughout the country