Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE NOT NOT NOT* read the books

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

That was my understanding of it. I don't think people would care so much if there hadn't been such an effort to make Jaimie seem like a guy with at least some redeemable, noble characteristics in the last season. He saves Brienne from being raped in a previous episode, and then comes back and rapes his sister? It just seems to veer a little from where they were taking that character.

As I may have mentioned in a previous post, we really have no idea as to the dynamic between Cersei and Jamie. So this behaviour might be "normal" to them. Maybe they bring out the worst in each other, Bran is the perfect example.

In that case his protection of Brienne isnt strange, as at that stage he could have seen her more as a comrade in arms.

An awful lot of GOT makes for uncomfortable watching, so I really dont see a problem, from a narrative point of view, over that scene. Maybe it was rape, maybe it wasn't. What bothered me more was the fact it happened beside the body of her dead son. That's a little disturbing.

kryogen wrote: »

It struck me when the guy told her dragons can never really be tamed, that since she is relying on her dragons basically to put the fear of God into people that it will probably be her undoing when she cant control them and they are full grown

But she is Targaryen and her ancestors did the same thing. They arrived with dragons and they put the fear of God in people.

From an outsiders perspective, her family ruled the 7 kingdom's for hundreds of years, and the dragons died out. There is a rebellion and the Targaryens are all but wiped out. Only to have the last known family member show up with 3 dragons and the self belief to raise an army from nothing.

We the viewers know how little real control she has, but those watching from a far would be extremely worried.

And we have no idea how it will develop. Maybe she has hidden "warg" abilities like Bran, or maybe they are bred in a way that they can't hurt a human with specific Targaryen genes.

Either way its a really interesting story arc. And things can't always go her way, this is GOT after all

bmwguy wrote: »

I have always thought Dany and Bran will team up, he is a warg and can control the dragons. There will be alliances formed, just like Tywin is doing. Remember it was Ned that refused to kill Dany back in season 1, not sure if she knows that but maybe it will help with an alliance. Just my 2c, I am reading the books but I'm miles back in book 2, happier times when the Starks were all still alive (except for Ned). Defo going to forge ahead and get up to date after this series while waiting for 5, stupid exams getting in the way now. Great show by the way, havent been this gripped ever before, I've done some marathon box set sessions but never got invested like this before. Go team Dany, she was seriously hot last night in the battle scene. Needs more nakedness soon, hopefully Dario gets her in the sack. Jorah either, but cant see that happening

Dany and Bran v's the white walkers...the mind drools!

But yes, it can't continue with her being so isolated, eventually she will have to make alliance's with supporter's in Westeros. And that depends on how, and where she lands. Which of course depends on how reliable her reports are.

Really enjoying her arc at the moment.

Precious flower wrote: »

I never particularly liked Littlefinger to be honest, really his voice distracts me from the show, especially this episode his accent was really bad I thought.
Overall, it wasn't a great episode. The rape scene was a bit weird too, I understand that in the last episode Jamie expressed his frustartion at Cersis distance towards him but to decide rape her? Jamie need to chill.

I'm confused too, what is the language Khalessi speaking to the slaves and every slave place she comes across because in the episode she needed a translate from one of the girls about what the man was saying but then she could speak to the slaves and they could understand her?

It can't be speaking Dothraki, so what is the other language she's speaking and how come every slave place she arrives at can understand her. Kind of loved how your man dealt with the fella on the horse, looked cool (poor horse though!).

Dany is speaking Valyrian, the champion was speaking Ghiscari so Missandei had to translate.

K_user wrote: »

But she is Targaryen and her ancestors did the same thing. They arrived with dragons and they put the fear of God in people.

From an outsiders perspective, her family ruled the 7 kingdom's for hundreds of years, and the dragons died out. There is a rebellion and the Targaryens are all but wiped out. Only to have the last known family member show up with 3 dragons and the self belief to raise an army from nothing.

We the viewers know how little real control she has, but those watching from a far would be extremely worried.

And we have no idea how it will develop. Maybe she has hidden "warg" abilities like Bran, or maybe they are bred in a way that they can't hurt a human with specific Targaryen genes.

Either way its a really interesting story arc. And things can't always go her way, this is GOT after all

Maester Aemon is a Targaryen as well. She is not alone.

bren2001 wrote: »

Maester Aemon is a Targaryen as well. She is not alone.

But Maester Aemon is at least 90, blind and gave up his claim to the throne, family and any interests south of the wall. And its unlikely that many remember he's there.

Brendan Filone wrote: »

Jamie probably didn't see anything wrong with forcing himself on her because he views Cersei as his. In his eyes seeing a friend or stranger potentially being raped by a group of men and wanting to stop that is a lot different than being rejected by your lover, and deciding to rape them. Just because he was against a rape in one instance, doesn't mean he isn't capable of the act himself.

Just like he objected to killing Tyrion, he might be against killing his brother, but that doesn't mean he's against murder.

You guys just don't have a very sound argument against Jamie ever raping someone.

Exactly.

Jamie has never been a "nice" guy. He has always been arrogant and self serving.

One good act, protecting Brienne, doesn't mean he's a changed man and all is forgiven and forgotten.

I really dont know why everyone is saying it was rape. I didnt see it that way at all.

Brendan Filone wrote: »

Jamie probably didn't see anything wrong with forcing himself on her because he views Cersei as his. In his eyes seeing a friend or stranger potentially being raped by a group of men and wanting to stop that is a lot different than being rejected by your lover, and deciding to rape them. Just because he was against a rape in one instance, doesn't mean he isn't capable of the act himself.

Just like he objected to killing Tyrion, he might be against killing his brother, but that doesn't mean he's against murder.

You guys just don't have a very sound argument against Jamie ever raping someone.

Taking up your point about Jaime seeing Cersei as his and not viewing it as rape, as well as differentiating between being rejected by a lover and being raped by a gang of men, that is sort of addressed in the book.


When Jaime was a member of the Aerys' (aka The Mad King) Kingsguard he was often disgusted by the the King's behaviour.
Once had to stand guard outside the Queen bedchamber with another Kingsguard brother while Aerys raped her. Jaime was about to intervene commenting that they were sworn to protect the Queen as well, but was convinced not to.

Long story short, Jaime hates rapists and would not do that. And I know that the show is different from the books, but they've included every other character development beat for him so far, so its not as if they've tried to create a radically different character.

He starts out as arrogant and self serving sure, but he really starts to redefine himself after he loses his hand. Like many others in the show, he's a complex character with shades of grey and he's definitely done some horrible things, but he is trying to make amends. He went back to save Brienne from the bear when he had no reason to.

The problem is that this could define how many people view him from now on, which is a shame.

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd agree if it was supposed to be a rape scene but it's clear from the comments coming out from the production team that it wasn't supposed to be one.

I'm fine with depictions of rape. It's a reality in both the civilised and less-enlightened parts of our modern world and would have been fairly rampant in the feudal history on which this series is largely based. What's irritating me is that a badly filmed scene is causing one of the most complex characters in the series to be looked at through the lens of a modern world where feminism's arguments that "no always means no" have been accepted as fact when in the real world of human relationships things aren't always black and white: sometimes "no" can mean "persuade me" or the "no, not here... oh **** it, I don't care any more" that was supposed to be being depicted in this scene.

Yeah, except just to clarify, in the real world, no means f*cking no.

General attitudes to rape as revealed by commentary on this episode are worrying.

snausages wrote: »

All that aside, this was my favourite episode of the new season. I liked the little 'interview' between the new upcoming King and Tywin. Joffrey was great but I'm glad he's dead, the show would have gotten stale with him in it much longer.

Tywin is the man...

Pac1Man wrote: »

Seriously, so what if it was rape? There has been rape scenes before and will be again. It's a TV show. Anyone offended by that should definitely not watch The Accused.

I don't think anyone in this thread said they were offended by it, so I have no idea where you're getting that from.

This point has been debated already, but this is the main problem:
People are annoyed because it makes Jaime a rapist, despite the fact he hates rapists. And it didn't happen in the books.

Meaning they made a consensual sex scene seem like rape for the sake of shock value. When it was already a really messed up incest scene anyway.

I would offer no protest against it if it was in character, but it simply isn't. It destroys any character development he'd had all last season.