Season 4 Episode 3 "Breaker of Chains": *HAVE NOT NOT NOT* read the books

Dan_Solo

Burt Macklin wrote: »

I would offer no protest against it if it was in character, but it simply isn't. It destroys any character development he'd had all last season.

Which in itself "ruined" the complete w4nk3r character they spent the first two seasons builidng up. So what's the problem?

K_user

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which in itself "ruined" the complete w4nk3r character they spent the first two seasons builidng up. So what's the problem?

+1

Mickeroo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which in itself "ruined" the complete w4nk3r character they spent the first two seasons builidng up. So what's the problem?

It made about as much sense as if they had Joffrey do something really nice for Tyrion imo. Just makes absolutely no narrative sense in terms of character arch to this point.

Dan_Solo

Mickeroo wrote: »

It made about as much sense as if they had Joffrey do something really nice for Tyrion imo. Just makes absolutely no narrative sense in terms of character arch to this point.

But Joffrey had NEVER been nice to Tyrion. Jaime was a utter sh1t, then got a bit alright, then back to being a sh1t. Not the same thing at all.

K_user

Burt Macklin wrote: »

I don't think anyone in this thread said they were offended by it, so I have no idea where you're getting that from.

This point has been debated already, but this is the main problem:
People are annoyed because it makes Jaime a rapist, despite the fact he hates rapists. And it didn't happen in the books.

Meaning they made a consensual sex scene seem like rape for the sake of shock value. When it was already a really messed up incest scene anyway.

I would offer no protest against it if it was in character, but it simply isn't. It destroys any character development he'd had all last season.

How does Jamie hate rapists? He admitted that he'd rather die than happen to him, and he advised Brienne that she should just let it happen. I believe his exact words were "don't fight it". His tone made it fairly clear that it was going to happen, just like it always does.

By that alone we can see what Jamie's opinion on this issue is. It was only when she was dragged off that had a change of heart, a came up with a story that might help.

As for Jamie's character. He's a ba#t**d. He showed no remorse for what he did to Bran, no remorse for killing a member of his own family while attempting to escape. He had all of Neds men killed outside Littlefingers, just cause he could. Then he fled the city. He said some less than polite things to Lady Stark, and others beside.

As Tyrion pointed out to that blonde squire that Cersei used to sleep around with, he was a dead man if Jamie were to hear of it.

Thats who Jamie is. He might be struggling with his conscience lately, but he isn't an angel.

And there is no real point in pointing out what did, or didn't, happen in the books. The show often diverges from the text, the internet has alot of sites/pages/threads devoted to discussing what has been changed. Its tge same with all books converted to the screen.

scottmcb04

am I the only one who thinks that joffrey was their son, not just hers?

Burt Macklin

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But Joffrey had NEVER been nice to Tyrion. Jaime was a utter sh1t, then got a bit alright, then back to being a sh1t. Not the same thing at all.

Equally though, Cersei was the love of Jaime's life. He tells Catelyn that he had always been faithful to her. They never showed or even hinted at this side to him before. The idea that Jaime would rape Cersei is ridiculous

The other problem is that the director then said it was supposed to be consensual. In which case they did a poor job of showing it.

Zaph

scottmcb04 wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks that joffrey was their son, not just hers?

Cersei and Jaime were Joffrey's parents. That was established in season 1, iirc. She also referred to him as "our son" when talking to Jaime after they were left alone in the hall with Joffrey's body.

K_user

Mickeroo wrote: »

It made about as much sense as if they had Joffrey do something really nice for Tyrion imo. Just makes absolutely no narrative sense in terms of character arch to this point.

But the character arc has shown us a very narcissistic, often merciless, man. Making a connection with Brienne was the exception, not the rule.

His character has shown more depth than what we originally saw. But it would make no sense to imagine that he suddenly become an upstanding noble, on a par with Ned.

Delira

scottmcb04 wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks that joffrey was their son, not just hers?

That's been confirmed NUMEROUS times during various major plotlines, including the most recent episode where Cersei is speaking to Jaime and calls him "our son"!! Nor sure how you could have missed that!

Witcher

scottmcb04 wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks that joffrey was their son, not just hers?

Why did you think a massive war started?:pac:

K_user

Burt Macklin wrote: »

Equally though, Cersei was the love of Jaime's life. He tells Catelyn that he had always been faithful to her. They never showed or even hinted at this side to him before. The idea that Jaime would rape Cersei is ridiculous

The other problem is that the director then said it was supposed to be consensual. In which case they did a poor job of showing it.

There are thousands of dysfunctional relationships in the world. To the average person what happened might have looked like rape. But, as I've said already, this sort of thing might be completely normal in their relationship. Rough, almost forced sex, might be how they communicate best. Who knows?

Also they never hinted that he'd kill a family member as a diversion, until he did.

DL Saint

I really think that the scene was just showing us a confused and aggravated Jamie. Him and Cersei were head over heels in love. Then he gets captured, loses his hand and forms a bond with Brienne. Upon returning to Kings Landing, Cersei is cold and frigid towards him and is afraid to be intimate with him, possibly due to honor or possibly due to embarrassment. Anyway this frustrates Jamie greatly as he used to have the power among the two. Cersei in this weeks scene then opens up a small bit to Jamie, and begins to warm to him again, only to then instantly push him away when things start to get heated. A now frustrated and puzzled Jamie, decides to force his hand (forgive the pun :P) and show her who has the power. I don't think it really changes his character arch much. It portrays him as naive and fragile more than a scumbag rapist imo.

Artful_Badger

I don't see the big deal. They are two cruel and selfish bastards, Cersei is a certified nutbag and she's been giving Jamie the cold shoulder since he returned. He cracked and forced himself on her.

Was it rape ? Yes, but rape in GOT isn't like rape in reality. People are routinely used by others in GOT and its little more than a show of dominance and frustration in that relationship. I'm sure Robert forced himself on her plenty and I'm sure Jamie's never been keen on hearing no when he's in the mood.

Does it ruin all Jamie's character development ? No, all it does is show he's still the same selfish cruel cúnt he was when he pushed Bran out the window and smashed his cousins head in with a rock. Just because he's shown he has a soft spot for Brienne doesn't mean he's actually changed.

So it wasnt out of character, it wasnt all that shocking and it being technically rape when it wasnt in the book doesnt mean its gone wildly away from the story.

K_user

Getting off the whole Jamie thing for a bit...

What are people's thoughts on Oberyn? Interesting guy, not exactly shy.

We know his families history. He has openly declared that he wants revenge. And now he has a seat on the small council.

We also know how Tywin disapproves of homosexuality and whores, and he walks in on Oberyn involved in both acts - so to speak.

How will Tywin deal with someone who isnt afraid of him? So openly, morally, vocally, different from himself?

expectationlost

so he can have sexual incest with her but not rape her that's where his judgement goes astray?

Grimebox

Well Oberyn will get his revenge to an extent by being gifted The Mountain, to torture and murder I assume.

Naydy

K_user wrote: »

What are people's thoughts on Oberyn? Interesting guy, not exactly shy.

He's one of my new favourite characters. He's likable, interesting to watch, a threat to the Lannisters, sympathetic because he's driven by grief and anger over what happened to his sister rather than looking for power and an open book with his motives which is refreshing! But that also makes me think he won't last very long, it's already been made clear what happens if you don't "play the game" and become a good liar in King's Landing.

I really can't see Tywin just giving Oberyn the Mountain, I think he suspects that there's too much bad blood for it to end there. I'd like Oberyn to get his revenge, but most people who've gone up against the Lannisters so far haven't come out of it too well .

Bacchus

K_user wrote: »

How does Jamie hate rapists? He admitted that he'd rather die than happen to him, and he advised Brienne that she should just let it happen. I believe his exact words were "don't fight it". His tone made it fairly clear that it was going to happen, just like it always does.

By that alone we can see what Jamie's opinion on this issue is. It was only when she was dragged off that had a change of heart, a came up with a story that might help.

Brienne was getting raped either way. The Boltons would probably have preferred a fight. He was trying to help her. It was a key point in his redemption arc showing a more complex side to Jamie that wasn't seen in Season 1. He's a killer and he is incestuous but he's actually a fairly moral man by Westeros standards and his journey with Brienne was a period of growth for him. It wasn't just one scene saving Brienne from rape. It was everything. He went back for her to save her from the bear too remember (what an odd sentence )

K_user wrote: »

As for Jamie's character. He's a ba#t**d. He showed no remorse for what he did to Bran, no remorse for killing a member of his own family while attempting to escape. He had all of Neds men killed outside Littlefingers, just cause he could. Then he fled the city. He said some less than polite things to Lady Stark, and others beside.

As Tyrion pointed out to that blonde squire that Cersei used to sleep around with, he was a dead man if Jamie were to hear of it.

We all agree, he is a killer, but he is a soldier. He was trained to kill. He killed Neds men cause they fought for him, Ned being a traitor at the time. Pushing Bran off the tower is probably the most evil thing he's done but his character has grown since then.

K_user wrote: »

Thats who Jamie is. He might be struggling with his conscience lately, but he isn't an angel.

But this is the exact thing right there. He is no angel, noone will argue that but he has developed as a character since his journey with Brienne. To make out that scene to be a rape doesn't fit with that arc. Since we know too that the director wasn't going for "rape" we know he wasn't meant to be portrayed in that way, which makes it even more obvious this wasn't meant to be a step backward for his character. It was supposed to be 2 fcuked up siblings giving in to what they both wanted.

K_user wrote: »

But the character arc has shown us a very narcissistic, often merciless, man. Making a connection with Brienne was the exception, not the rule.

His character has shown more depth than what we originally saw. But it would make no sense to imagine that he suddenly become an upstanding noble, on a par with Ned.

The connection with Brienne was the start of his path to redemption IMO. You can see it even in the comments for each episode. Jamie has grown to be a more and more likeable character. This was out of place with Jamie 2.0 And, as I said just above, the scene wasn't supposed to have been a rape but they managed to film one anyway. So his character was not meant to have regressed like this.

In summary: Rape and worse happen on this show all the time. It is at times unsettling but that's par for the course on GoT. The problem I (and I suspect others) have with the "rape" was not that it was shocking but that it did not fit with how Jamie has developed as a character. Add to that the comments from the director and GRR Martin himself, and it's clear it wasn't supposed to have been a rape.

Naydy

Bacchus wrote: »

In summary: Rape and worse happen on this show all the time. It is at times unsettling but that's par for the course on GoT. The problem I (and I suspect others) have with the "rape" was not that it was shocking but that it did not fit with how Jamie has developed as a character. Add to that the comments from the director and GRR Martin himself, and it's clear it wasn't supposed to have been a rape.

Totally agree, I think they made an absolute balls of this scene. How was that supposed to look consensual in the end? I'm not really a Jaime fan but this just seemed completely out of character. Jaime has always been completely devoted to her. As messed up/broken/damaged as their relationship is, and as warped as their views on right and wrong are when it comes to each other, I think this just pushed the whole thing past believable. Of course it goes without saying that it was pretty uncomfortable viewing but I'd have let that slide if it had actually made sense for the characters.

Penny Dreadful

Naydy wrote: »

Totally agree, I think they made an absolute balls of this scene. How was that supposed to look consensual in the end? I'm not really a Jaime fan but this just seemed completely out of character. Jaime has always been completely devoted to her. As messed up/broken/damaged as their relationship is, and as warped as their views on right and wrong are when it comes to each other, I think this just pushed the whole thing past believable. Of course it goes without saying that it was pretty uncomfortable viewing but I'd have let that slide if it had actually made sense for the characters.

I think Cersi is absolutley horrified by Jamie's amputation and can't bear to have him, now "less of a man" in her eyes near her any longer. When the show started and their relationship was revealed to us Jamie was the Kingslayer, big and brave (supposedly), strong and handsome, virile and someone who could protect her.
What happened to him while he was making his way back to Kings Landing has shown him to be very very human and ordinary and vulnerable. None of these things are attractive or useful to Cersi.
When the scene started and she turned to Jamie for comfort and they kissed it was like old times for them but once she saw or felt his prosthetic hand she turned from him with revulsion. I think this is what triggered the aggressive and angry response in Jamie. While the scene may not have been intended to be a rape scene per say I do think it showed Jamie reclaiming the power, even if just for a short while and in a dreadful way.

Given that Joffrey was his son too Jamie seems to have very few feelings about this death.

Overall I liked the episode but have to say WTF happened with Littlefinger's accent. It stood out a mile and I do not remember him sounding like that before. I really and truly hope it was a one off. Stupid overly Oirish accents like that turn me off tv shows in the biggest way.

norrie rugger

It could be that Littlefinger has to put on an accent, in the city, to hide his less than stellar family traits.

Mickeroo

norrie rugger wrote: »

It could be that Littlefinger has to put on an accent, in the city, to hide his less than stellar family traits.

That would explain him using different accents alright but not the over acting or why the accent has to be so bad :P

Artful_Badger

I think people are massively overplaying this rape scene. It wasnt completely out of character at all. We're talking about Jamie Lannister in Game of Thrones. A character known to be selfish and cruel in a series known for its brutality. He along with Cersei had John Arren killed for finding out about them, he threw a child out of a window for finding out about them, he smashed his own cousins head in with a rock to enable him a chance of escaping from Rob Stark.

Its a little naive to think the guy had turned into a saint because of his adventure with and soft spot for Brienne. It was a forced sex scene between two cruel and twisted siblings/lovers after Jamie returned to find Cersei gone off him despite the efforts he made to return. And I dont understand how anyone could think he wouldnt regress from Mr Nice or at least show some aspects of conflict once he was back in kings landing.

Burt Macklin

Some accents on the show are all over the place alright. Sean Bean had a Yorkshire accent in S1, and I think every other Northern character tried to imitate it a bit.
Peter Dinklage tries to do a bit of an English one which sounds a little off at times. As for Aidan Gillen, this must be his fourth accent on the show.

His voice sounds very weird here as well

norrie rugger

Ned and Robert were played with the actors own accents so well that others had no choice but attempt to copy, i imagine

Dan_Solo

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Its a little naive to think the guy had turned into a saint because of his adventure with and soft spot for Brienne.

Which I would imagine is entirely due to his respect for her fighting skills. Whatever she thinks of him may not be reciprocated at all.

Witcher

I think Sean Bean's accent was perfect for a Northerner and Mark Addy's one suited Robert because I don't think Robert was the type to spend a lot of time on elocution lessons growing up so the harsh, semi northern accent suited him.

norrie rugger

Everyone pictures this taking place in England-ish location. Weird given that some kind of Old Europe, with all the different cultures in closish proximity would be better but, as the books as the common language in the books and series is English, we all this Northerners equates to Northern England and the wall keeping the wild red haired scottish out (with the walkers being from Glasgow?)

Artful_Badger

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Which I would imagine is entirely due to his respect for her fighting skills. Whatever she thinks of him may not be reciprocated at all.

I'd say that's where it started but he did seem to grow a genuine fondness for her. But from what I got that was because it was the two of them alone for so long and then both captured together. Not because he all of a sudden grew a conscience. As far as I ever seen him he was still the selfish cruel bastard he always was, just with a new friend and ally and humbled a bit by having his hand cut off.

I figured once back in kings landing he'd be more like the Jamie of old or at least showing signs of conflict between who is was expected to be when he arrived back and what he had become of the changes were genuine.

So I dont see the scene with Cersei as out of character even if it was a poorly shot scene or not in line with how it happened in the books.

My big worry is that all this outrage is based on his actual character development in the books beyond what's already happened and this scene going against that and not his character development in the series.