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Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

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Comments

  • #2102
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    sopretty wrote: »
    That's a fair point. That said, do they think the public are thick?

    Yup:D


  • #2103
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    Yup:D

    Unfortunately, I have to concede, that the general public is generally.......thick.

    God bless us and save us! :D


  • #2104
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    sopretty wrote: »
    Unfortunately, I have to concede, that the general public is generally.......thick.

    God bless us and save us! :D

    I've been called worse I suppose and prayers and holy water are no good to you now:p


  • #2105
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    I've been called worse I suppose and prayers and holy water are no good to you now:p

    Ah, I just tell myself that I'm not typical of the 'general' public and I can happily get away with all sorts of generalisations. :pac:


  • #2106
    Hootanany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I think it's more to do with, the sacking of Shatter would appear to the public that the Government were at fault. By not sacking him, the Government can pretend nothing is wrong. It's a constant when it comes to those in office.

    Well the longer he is there the more damage is done to FG


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  • #2107
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    sopretty wrote: »
    Ah, I just tell myself that I'm not typical of the 'general' public and I can happily get away with all sorts of generalisations. :pac:

    Jaysus you sound like a politician:)


  • #2108
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    Jaysus you sound like a politician:)

    Good God above. Don't be insulting me!!


  • #2109
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    sopretty wrote: »
    Good God above. Don't be insulting me!!

    Who knows you might be good at it


  • #2110
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    Who knows you might be good at it

    Better at tearing them apart, thank you very much!


  • #2111
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    sopretty wrote: »
    Better at tearing them apart, thank you very much!

    No harm in that anyway


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  • #2112
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Hootanany wrote: »
    Well the longer he is there the more damage is done to FG

    Not so sure about that. Not admitting wrong doing means, that much of the electorate will take it as that.. Nothing to see here folks.


  • #2113
    Hootanany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,477 ✭✭✭Hootanany


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    Not so sure about that. Not admitting wrong doing means, that much of the electorate will take it as that.. Nothing to see here folks.

    Wait for the locals:cool:


  • #2114
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Hootanany wrote: »
    Wait for the locals:cool:

    You well be right. This week we have the ESRI painting a rosy picture for the economy, a projection of 50000 jobs in 2014. The live register down last week. New car sales up. A lot of positive news. I am not sure how much of this will translate into local elections, or a protest vote against the government due to the Shatter business?




    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0115/497912-hogan-irish-water/
    http://www.businessandleadership.com/business/item/45424-ibec-ups-growth-forecast-to/


  • #2115
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    You well be right. This week we have the ESRI painting a rosy picture for the economy, a projection of 50000 jobs in 2014. The live register down last week. New car sales up. A lot of positive news. I am not sure how much of this will translate into local elections, or a protest vote against the government due to the Shatter business?




    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0115/497912-hogan-irish-water/
    http://www.businessandleadership.com/business/item/45424-ibec-ups-growth-forecast-to/

    Had a Fine Gael candidate here campaigning yesterday and I mentioned Shatter and she said 'he has to go, he just has to'.
    ETA: While she was a potentially good candidate, I will not vote FG until Shatter is gone.


  • #2116
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    sopretty wrote: »
    That's a fair point. That said, do they think the public are thick?

    no they don't, they know for a fact we're thick
    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    You well be right. This week we have the ESRI painting a rosy picture for the economy, a projection of 50000 jobs in 2014. The live register down last week. New car sales up. A lot of positive news. I am not sure how much of this will translate into local elections, or a protest vote against the government due to the Shatter business?




    http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0115/497912-hogan-irish-water/
    http://www.businessandleadership.com/business/item/45424-ibec-ups-growth-forecast-to/

    and this is why there's food banks being setup across the country to feed the 600,000+ in food poverty

    I hate to say it but wait til you see how wrong the esri got their predictions by the end of the year


  • #2117
    fr3d12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 293 ✭✭fr3d12


    renegademaster wrote: »
    no they don't, they know for a fact we're thick



    and this is why there's food banks being setup across the country to feed the 600,000+ in food poverty

    I hate to say it but wait til you see how wrong the esri got their predictions by the end of the year

    That's the same ESRI who predicted a soft landing back in '07.
    They consistently get it wrong and will alter the numbers again in a few months.


  • #2118
    Busted Flat.
    Registered Users Posts: 4,003 ✭✭✭Busted Flat.


    fr3d12 wrote: »
    That's the same ESRI who predicted a soft landing back in '07.
    They consistently get it wrong and will alter the numbers again in a few months.

    Government agency, their job is, to distract people with bull$hit.


  • #2119
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,807 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Busted Flat. wrote: »
    Government agency, their job is, to distract people with bull$hit.

    Exactly. I started a thread on that yesterday.


  • #2120
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,030 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Tip of the iceberg it seems (not that this is any surprise to most of us)..
    GARDA WHISTEBLOWER JOHN Wilson has revealed that a number of serving members of An Garda Síochána have come forward with fresh claims of malpractice.
    Speaking to Newstalk Breakfast, Wilson outlined that a plan is now being formulated as to how these concerns can now be voiced and dealt with “in a professional manner”.

    As I said on another thread this morning, the Gardai have lost all credibility in my opinion and should be disbanded and replaced with a professional, competent and accountable police force - 3 things that you couldn't apply to the current Keystone Cops brigade we're saddled with.


  • #2121
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Tip of the iceberg it seems (not that this is any surprise to most of us)..



    As I said on another thread this morning, the Gardai have lost all credibility in my opinion and should be disbanded and replaced with a professional, competent and accountable police force - 3 things that you couldn't apply to the current Keystone Cops brigade we're saddled with.

    Why then do nearly 80% of the public consistently say in polls that they have confidence in the gardai. Maybe real people can actually have good experiences of dealing with gardai. Be careful what you wish for, a new force would also have to deal with the same problems police face, being under resourced, and having to deal with unreasonable people full of drink and drugs, sex offenders, criminals etc who can go online the day after they are arrested anonymously and slate gardai. A police force is never going to be popular, how can it be, the satisfaction ratings with the police force in Ireland are the envy of forces worldwide. They police largely unarmed and by consent. It's the political handprint that causes problems in gardai, that's the political gombeens that both you and me and the rest of us elected on parish pump politics because it's the only way anyone can get anything done in this country and they want to keep it that way!


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  • #2122
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭creedp


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    It's the political handprint that causes problems in gardai, that's the political gombeens that both you and me and the rest of us elected on parish pump politics because it's the only way anyone can get anything done in this country and they want to keep it that way!


    You can argue though that the some Garda operate in a very similar manner to the parish pump politics model. Obviously anecdotal but I know of plenty cases where summons' for a range of road traffic offences were quoshed simply by getting onto a friend/relative in the force. In the same manner as pot hole fixers get elected/re-elected, gardai that sort out summons' are the good guys. So long as this happens, its not possible to completely deflect current criticisms of the force by claiming its gombeen political interference that is the source of all evil.


  • #2123
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    creedp wrote: »
    You can argue though that the some Garda operate in a very similar manner to the parish pump politics model. Obviously anecdotal but I know of plenty cases where summons' for a range of road traffic offences were quoshed simply by getting onto a friend/relative in the force. In the same manner as pot hole fixers get elected/re-elected, gardai that sort out summons' are the good guys. So long as this happens, its not possible to completely deflect current criticisms of the force by claiming its gombeen political interference that is the source of all evil.

    I agree they reflect Irish society, they were recruited from the public and so would a new force


  • #2124
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    renegademaster wrote: »
    no they don't, they know for a fact we're thick



    and this is why there's food banks being setup across the country to feed the 600,000+ in food poverty

    I hate to say it but wait til you see how wrong the esri got their predictions by the end of the year


    Food banks for 600,000 people, that would be some logistical operation. I am sure that there must be a masterplan for it somewhere. Can you provide a link to your ludicrous claim?


  • #2125
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    I agree they reflect Irish society, they were recruited from the public and so would a new force

    If you're recruited into a corrupt organisation, then you either comply, or get out. No matter how good and moral the intentions of gardai entering the force are, if they are faced with a culture such as has been suggested by recent events, then they have to conform to that culture. It's a sink or swim situation.


  • #2126
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,070 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Godge wrote: »
    Food banks for 600,000 people, that would be some logistical operation. I am sure that there must be a masterplan for it somewhere. Can you provide a link to your ludicrous claim?

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2014/0404/ireland/food-banks-to-tackle-poverty-crisis-264290.html


  • #2127
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    sopretty wrote: »
    If you're recruited into a corrupt organisation, then you either comply, or get out. No matter how good and moral the intentions of gardai entering the force are, if they are faced with a culture such as has been suggested by recent events, then they have to conform to that culture. It's a sink or swim situation.

    All gardai immediately become corrupt when they join, great arguement, talk about kicking a group of people when they are down and painting with a large brush. How can you possibly speak for 13,000 gardai. No workplace is perfect especially when it's undermined by political infulence. Many gardai choose to try and change it from within and by highlighting issues through the GRA. Maybe if people had listened to them down through the years they might have heard a lot of what is complained about now. But keep painting everyone with the same brush its easy and sure will solve the real problem!


  • #2128
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    All gardai immediately become corrupt when they join, great arguement, talk about kicking a group of people when they are down and painting with a large brush. How can you possibly speak for 13,000 gardai. No workplace is perfect especially when it's undermined by political infulence. Many gardai choose to try and change it from within and by highlighting issues through the GRA. Maybe if people had listened to them down through the years they might have heard a lot of what is complained about now. But keep painting everyone with the same brush its easy and sure will solve the real problem!

    If I hear the 'painting with a large brush' argument one more time in relation to AGS, well I'll........ I dunno...... I'll do something!!!! :D (nothing criminal mind you).


  • #2129
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    sopretty wrote: »
    If I hear the 'painting with a large brush' argument one more time in relation to AGS, well I'll........ I dunno...... I'll do something!!!! :D (nothing criminal mind you).

    Just put the brush away!


  • #2130
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    Just put the brush away!

    But the reality is, that the force has a bad reputation. A few bad apples. Bad impression. You dudes need to cop on to that. 'cop' gettit? :pac:


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  • #2131
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    sopretty wrote: »
    A few bad apples.

    The point of the phrase "a few bad apples" is that just a few bad apples in a barrel is enough to ruin the whole thing.


  • #2132
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The point of the phrase "a few bad apples" is that just a few bad apples in a barrel is enough to ruin the whole thing.

    That has been my point all along.


  • #2133
    brooke 2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Have just been reading back on the Joanne Hayes case which occurred thirty years ago. Was not aware that Gerry O'Carroll was the detective in charge of the case. What
    puzzles me is why he is consistently rolled out in the media over the years to comment
    on various crimes which have been committed. Did he not have any questions to answer about the way the Hayes case was conducted??


  • #2134
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The point of the phrase "a few bad apples" is that just a few bad apples in a barrel is enough to ruin the whole thing.

    There's the brush out again. If a family member is a bad apple does that mean all the family are bad apples?


  • #2135
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    There's the brush out again. If a family member is a bad apple does that mean all the family are bad apples?

    Yes! Try it: take a bowl of good apples. Put a rotten apple on top. Check what happens next day.

    Every apple that touches the bad apple goes bad. Soon the whole bowl is rotten. You can't come next week and weed out the bad apples - the whole bowl is now bad.

    So someone who says "the family are ok, it's just one or two bad apples" is contradicting themselves.


  • #2136
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Yes! Try it: take a bowl of good apples. Put a rotten apple on top. Check what happens next day.

    Every apple that touches the bad apple goes bad. Soon the whole bowl is rotten. You can't come next week and weed out the bad apples - the whole bowl is now bad.

    So someone who says "the family are ok, it's just one or two bad apples" is contradicting themselves.

    Apples and people are the same thing so, does that mean that man kind is fcuked now that the garda whistleblowers have pointed out there's a few bad apples who happen to be humans as well?


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  • #2137
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    Apples and people are the same thing so, does that mean that man kind is fcuked now that the garda whistleblowers have pointed out there's a few bad apples who happen to be humans as well?

    I think you're more of a melon than an apple.


  • #2138
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    Apples and people are the same thing so, does that mean that man kind is fcuked now that the garda whistleblowers have pointed out there's a few bad apples who happen to be humans as well?

    I am not commenting on the Gardaí or whistleblowers: I am commenting on the meaning of "a few bad apples". If you mean "a few isolated corrupt guards" then don't say "bad apples" as it means the whole lot are bad.


  • #2139
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,377 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    All gardai immediately become corrupt when they join, great arguement, talk about kicking a group of people when they are down and painting with a large brush. How can you possibly speak for 13,000 gardai. No workplace is perfect especially when it's undermined by political infulence. Many gardai choose to try and change it from within and by highlighting issues through the GRA. Maybe if people had listened to them down through the years they might have heard a lot of what is complained about now. But keep painting everyone with the same brush its easy and sure will solve the real problem!

    Over 200 senior Gardai involved in the squashing of 10's of thousands of fixed chargered penalties and you still claim it was an isolated pocket within AGS.

    AGS will continue to be painted with wide brush strokes until such a time as they are properly monitored and held accountable for their actions.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #2140
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,807 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Bad apples. Is the Moore Street thread?


  • #2141
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,377 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Bad apples. Is the Moore Street thread?

    Penny apples??

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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  • #2142
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    No point in throwing the baby out with the bad apples.


  • #2143
    rodento
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭rodento


    Is the Hawkes report on the Wallace issue out this week????


  • #2144
    aloyisious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,338 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    What is it with humans and apples? The apple of his/her father's eye. Even the bible say's badness start with a bite of an apple.


  • #2145
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 52,807 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Its a Banana Republic ... eh Apple Republic.


  • #2146
    Going Forward
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,224 ✭✭✭Going Forward


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    I agree they reflect Irish society, they were recruited from the public and so would a new force

    The number who have been shown to be completely unsuitable, based purely on criminal convictions against them, not to mention the anecdotal stories which are legion, show that the selection process is at best, flawed.

    Many were recruited who were clearly not of the correct material for the job. We must ask why that is, there's never any shortage of candidates, yet many complete oddballs end up in uniform.

    A 'new' force may attract a different sort of individual, with some maturity, and a sense of the responsibility which comes with the position, and some morals wouldn't go astray either.


  • #2147
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,377 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Going Forward wrote: »
    The number who have been shown to be completely unsuitable, based purely on criminal convictions against them, not to mention the anecdotal stories which are legion, show that the selection process is at best, flawed.

    Many were recruited who were clearly not of the correct material for the job. We must ask why that is, there's never any shortage of candidates, yet many complete oddballs end up in uniform.

    A 'new' force may attract a different sort of individual, with some maturity, and a sense of the responsibility which comes with the position, and some morals wouldn't go astray either.

    Well the selection process is completely flawed. Look at how many of the new recruits about to come into the force are sons, daughters, nieces, nephews etc. nepotism is rife in AGS.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #2148
    mickdw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,593 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    When is report due on gsoc?
    A bit of free speech when that is published should put some pressure back on shatter.


  • #2149
    Shady Tady
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Shady Tady


    JRant wrote: »
    Well the selection process is completely flawed. Look at how many of the new recruits about to come into the force are sons, daughters, nieces, nephews etc. nepotism is rife in AGS.

    Guess who didn't manage to get in?


  • #2150
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Shady Tady wrote: »
    Guess who didn't manage to get in?

    I give up..... who?


  • #2151
    mikep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 965 ✭✭✭mikep


    Yet again this thread goes a bit wobbly...anyhow...will the "no show" by Shatter at the conferences add pressure to get him out of office?? While some here have suggested that Enda won't budge on Shatter...I'm still not so sure about the lack of pressure in the background to move him...could the labour party push for Howlin, as he is currently in a "reform" ministry?? Personally I'm hoping that Shatter won't continue where he is post reshuffle..


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