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Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

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    #2072
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    tayto lover wrote: »
    We all want fair play, for everybody.
    You did generalise a lot I felt.
    There's good and bad in all walks of life.

    But we're talking about systematic failures within AGS. I don't think I've generalised a lot IMO.

    Of course there are good and bad but when you've no checks or balances it makes it easier for the bad to get away with it.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #2073
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Sigh. 3 day ban for ShadyTady for persistently trolling sopretty. Everyone else, the thread goes back on topic or more bans are handed out.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #2074
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    I believe @Sopretty. It's hardly news that some members of AGS lie under oath. This is the sort of culture that needs to be addressed. The people who were attacking her on this forum were exposing their obvious vested interests IMO, (albeit in a hamfisted 5 Ds in the leaving cert fashion).

    I have been involved in plenty of court cases over the years (usually family law, but sometime as a victim), and I can perfectly understand Sopretty's attitude to just wanting to forget about it. Before the GSOC bugging issue, the general public had no idea about GSOC's existence. And even if they did, we have since discovered that GSOC was practically toothless. Is it any wonder that Sopretty and her friend decided to just forget about the whole thing?

    Hopefully things will now change. I suspect that if the incident that Sopretty described took place tonight, she and her friend would be straight onto GSOC, and also as a result of the recent developments, lazy arsed useless Gardai will also be less likely to pull those sort of strokes.

    As a bit of a back history to my experience to dealing with AGS, when my daughter was parentally abducted by her mother and I reported it, the sergeant in the station told me - "What do you want me do about it?" There was a marked difference in his attitude the following day after he got a call from an MEP who explained to him exactly what he was expected to do about it, and the ramifications if he didn't. The attitude of this lazy arsed lump was shamed by the experience of the team of US Marshals who sprang into action and tracked the abductor by cell phone signal and who behaved with the utmost professionalism.


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    #2075
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I have never said that I don't believe sopretty, I have made no judgement of the case she put forward.

    I am merely saying that if everyone in the country acted the same way, then there would be no such thing as whistleblowers, in any department/job.

    If you don't report crime or wrongdoing because you just think there is no point, or you won't be believed, then everything will just trundle along as before.

    If you believe gardai are corrupt and don't report wrongdoings themselves, but you do exactly the same thing, then you really can't complain.

    Make a complaint, make a stand.
    Don't expect others to do what you won't.


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    #2076
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I have never said that I don't believe sopretty, I have made no judgement of the case she put forward.

    I am merely saying that if everyone in the country acted the same way, then there would be no such thing as whistleblowers, in any department/job.

    If you don't report crime or wrongdoing because you just think there is no point, or you won't be believed, then everything will just trundle along as before.

    If you believe gardai are corrupt and don't report wrongdoings themselves, but you do exactly the same thing, then you really can't complain.

    Make a complaint, make a stand.
    Don't expect others to do what you won't.

    Were the whistleblowers listened to? Were they believed? They went through due process and were ignored. They had to go to government to be heard!

    I do not have the will within me to fight the good fight. The corruption was there in front of me. What, in heavens name, was I to do? To whom was I to report this lovely guard? Who was going to believe us? What possible motivation could he have had? (apart from trying to get a prosecution out of a stupid case).

    I've since filled out my wee GSOC feedback form in relation to the other individual. That's the height of my civic duty!!!!


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    #2077
    renegademaster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭renegademaster


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Make a complaint, make a stand.
    Don't expect others to do what you won't.

    aren't you expecting this yourself??


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    #2078
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Can we please get back on track please and leave the personal vendettas at the door. Its ruining the thread.


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    #2079
    mikep
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭mikep


    Now that the tems of ref of the inquiry into the tapes have been released will Shatter be reshuffled after the upcoming elections?
    Would make Enda look like he is doing something, which will take the sting out of findings (if any) that may make Shatter look bad..


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    #2080
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    mikep wrote: »
    Now that the tems of ref of the inquiry into the tapes have been released will Shatter be reshuffled after the upcoming elections?
    Would make Enda look like he is doing something, which will take the sting out of findings (if any) that may make Shatter look bad..

    The FG party seem too arrogant to make changes in Justice though.
    Changes need to be made in order to move on but I doubt they will.
    I wonder if there is anymore dirt to come out and they are waiting for it before making changes.


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    #2081
    mikep
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭mikep


    Tayto Lover, you might be right, although Frank Flannery has been cut adrift despite his widely acknowledged part in the renaissance of FG, so you'd never know. Shatter has attracted a lot of unwelcome attention to them.


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    #2082
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    mikep wrote: »
    Tayto Lover, you might be right, although Frank Flannery has been cut adrift despite his widely acknowledged part in the renaissance of FG, so you'd never know. Shatter has attracted a lot of unwelcome attention to them.

    Flannery's involvement as CEO of RehabGroup before Angela Kerins took on the position hasn't done much for his credibility in fairness.


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    #2083
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    renegademaster wrote: »
    aren't you expecting this yourself??

    no?
    how?
    please explain


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    #2084
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    actually, dont on this thread, its been derailed enough.


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    #2085
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,624 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    mikep wrote: »
    Now that the tems of ref of the inquiry into the tapes have been released will Shatter be reshuffled after the upcoming elections?
    Would make Enda look like he is doing something, which will take the sting out of findings (if any) that may make Shatter look bad..

    I reckon in private Enda would love to reshuffle him out of Justice as he has caused enough damage as it is. However something tells me that Shatter has something over Kenny, I don't know what it is but Kenny seems to go beyond the bounds of loyalty for Shatter while he had no problems with cutting Frank Flannery loose quick smart.

    I know Shatter backed Kenny in the heave attempt and likely his support was hinged on him getting the Justice job when FG came to power. But there seems to be more to it than that. I remember reading a short while back how cabinet meetings are regularly dominated by Alan Shatter, he does more talking at them than anyone else and by a considerable distance. Shatter is a very capable talker and he can talk on his feet very well. My impression of that nugget of information was that what might actually be going on is that we have a Taoiseach in name and then we have a quasi-Taoiseach who also happens to be Minister for Justice. I don't mean that in a flippant way, moreso that I get the impression that Kenny is a weak leader who needs a bully like Hogan to be his enforcer and all the while Shatter has been playing the much smarter game and has somehow gained total and utter control over Kenny to do with what he likes.

    If Kenny were to demote him it would mean him being humiliated in front of all his legal colleagues. For that there would be trouble, with Shatter likely to try his best to instigate a heave or else. Ring the government down. In the knowledgeable words of Oliver Connolly "If Shatter thinks you're screwing him, you're finished".


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    #2086
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    tayto lover wrote: »
    The FG party seem too arrogant to make changes in Justice though.
    Changes need to be made in order to move on but I doubt they will.
    I wonder if there is anymore dirt to come out and they are waiting for it before making changes.

    At this stage it would appear that Shatter will remain as MoJ for as long as he wants to be.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #2087
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    JRant wrote: »
    At this stage it would appear that Shatter will remain as MoJ for as long as he wants to be.

    He has something on Enda for sure!


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    #2088
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    sopretty wrote: »
    He has something on Enda for sure!

    Thinking back to the Wallace comments he made, it could very well have been a shot across the bow for anyone thinking of trying to get one over on him.

    If he was able to pull that stuff out on Wallace those around him must have been wondering what other whispers he's been hearing. The man's like Pycelle with his spiders everywhere.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #2089
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    JRant wrote: »
    Thinking back to the Wallace comments he made, it could very well have been a shot across the bow for anyone thinking of trying to get one over on him.

    If he was able to pull that stuff out on Wallace those around him must have been wondering what other whispers he's been hearing. The man's like Pycelle with his spiders everywhere.

    You've lost me. :D


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    #2090
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    sopretty wrote: »
    You've lost me. :D

    If he knew about a conversation between a garda and mick wallace while stopped at traffic lights then what does he know about those around him.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #2091
    John_C
    Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭John_C


    JRant wrote: »
    Thinking back to the Wallace comments he made, it could very well have been a shot across the bow for anyone thinking of trying to get one over on him.

    If he was able to pull that stuff out on Wallace those around him must have been wondering what other whispers he's been hearing. The man's like Pycelle with his spiders everywhere.

    Varys & his little birds.


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    #2092
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Aha. You lost me at Pycelle.

    Yes, I believe also that he has 'stuff' on Enda and possibly on more. Otherwise he'd be gone. Question is: What is the dirt?


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    #2093
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    John_C wrote: »
    Varys & his little birds.

    I stand corrected, thanks.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #2094
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,624 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    sopretty wrote: »
    Aha. You lost me at Pycelle.

    Yes, I believe also that he has 'stuff' on Enda and possibly on more. Otherwise he'd be gone. Question is: What is the dirt?

    It was Machiavelli in the Prince who said that in politics in order to maintain control it is better to be feared than to be loved. My guess is that Enda fears Shatter, he sees him as his intellectual superior and during his time in FG he has come to understand what he is capable of.

    I don't think it is the case that Shatter has one single piece of dirt that is a silver bullet for Enda's political career. I think it is more that Enda knows that Shatter is a man you don't cross and he also knows that it is politically expedient to have him on your side rather than fighting against him. Enda must also be fully aware that practically every Dublin based FG TD backed Richard Bruton in the heave with the exception of Alan Shatter who correctly threw his cards in with the Country and Western wing of the party. Enda might be a weak leader but he's smart enough to realise that Shatter is his entire eyes and ears when it comes to the FG party in Dublin, which is still a FF-free zone. If Shatter were ever to switch sides to the Dublin FG set Kenny could find his grip on power slipping very
    quickly. The mere mentioning of Shatter being shuffled out of Justice would, I think, be enough to set in motion a train of events that would spiral out of Kenny's control in no time at all. I think Enda realises that Shatter is like a lynchpin that holds this government together, if you cut him loose the wrath will be such that he might bring the whole deck of cards down in retribution. You don't get one over on Alan Shatter.


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    #2095
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    It was Machiavelli in the Prince who said that in politics in order to maintain control it is better to be feared than to be loved. My guess is that Enda fears Shatter, he sees him as his intellectual superior and during his time in FG he has come to understand what he is capable of.

    I don't think it is the case that Shatter has one single piece of dirt that is a silver bullet for Enda's political career. I think it is more that Enda knows that Shatter is a man you don't cross and he also knows that it is politically expedient to have him on your side rather than fighting against him. Enda must also be fully aware that practically every Dublin based FG TD backed Richard Bruton in the heave with the exception of Alan Shatter who correctly threw his cards in with the Country and Western wing of the party. Enda might be a weak leader but he's smart enough to realise that Shatter is his entire eyes and ears when it comes to the FG party in Dublin, which is still a FF-free zone. If Shatter were ever to switch sides to the Dublin FG set Kenny could find his grip on power slipping very
    quickly. The mere mentioning of Shatter being shuffled out of Justice would, I think, be enough to set in motion a train of events that would spiral out of Kenny's control in no time at all. I think Enda realises that Shatter is like a lynchpin that holds this government together, if you cut him loose the wrath will be such that he might bring the whole deck of cards down in retribution. You don't get one over on Alan Shatter.

    Good story, well told. He needs to get the boot. If he doesn't get the boot, FG will be left with only the staunch followers.


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    #2096
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    It was Machiavelli in the Prince who said that in politics in order to maintain control it is better to be feared than to be loved. My guess is that Enda fears Shatter, he sees him as his intellectual superior and during his time in FG he has come to understand what he is capable of.

    I don't think it is the case that Shatter has one single piece of dirt that is a silver bullet for Enda's political career. I think it is more that Enda knows that Shatter is a man you don't cross and he also knows that it is politically expedient to have him on your side rather than fighting against him. Enda must also be fully aware that practically every Dublin based FG TD backed Richard Bruton in the heave with the exception of Alan Shatter who correctly threw his cards in with the Country and Western wing of the party. Enda might be a weak leader but he's smart enough to realise that Shatter is his entire eyes and ears when it comes to the FG party in Dublin, which is still a FF-free zone. If Shatter were ever to switch sides to the Dublin FG set Kenny could find his grip on power slipping very
    quickly. The mere mentioning of Shatter being shuffled out of Justice would, I think, be enough to set in motion a train of events that would spiral out of Kenny's control in no time at all. I think Enda realises that Shatter is like a lynchpin that holds this government together, if you cut him loose the wrath will be such that he might bring the whole deck of cards down in retribution. You don't get one over on Alan Shatter.

    As he points out later in the book though it's a fine line between being feared and hated and one must never become hated.

    Shatter may just become to big for his boots and regardless of what info he may or may not have somebody will eventually try to tske him on.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #2097
    mikep
    Registered Users Posts: 930 ✭✭✭mikep


    I agree with the premise that Shatter has no silver bullet on Enda, however I think Enda must be aware of the younger brigade of Varadkar, Coveny etc wo don't seem too enamoured with Shatters performances of late..so with one eye on them he may be prepard to scarifice Shatter to enusre he stays in place to lead the 1916 comemerations, (that's assuming they make it that far)
    As I mentioned earlier still no word from R.Bruton....


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    #2098
    JRant
    Registered Users Posts: 12,905 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    mikep wrote: »
    I agree with the premise that Shatter has no silver bullet on Enda, however I think Enda must be aware of the younger brigade of Varadkar, Coveny etc wo don't seem too enamoured with Shatters performances of late..so with one eye on them he may be prepard to scarifice Shatter to enusre he stays in place to lead the 1916 comemerations, (that's assuming they make it that far)
    As I mentioned earlier still no word from R.Bruton....

    I wouldn't be so sure about that. Didn't Enda give Leo a very public slap on the wrist for speaking about this in public. I don't think senior members of FG or Labour give two hoots about those coming behind them. Most of them are ready to be pensioned off at this stage and the long game doesn't appear to be in their thinking.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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    #2099
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    JRant wrote: »
    I wouldn't be so sure about that. Didn't Enda give Leo a very public slap on the wrist for speaking about this in public. I don't think senior members of FG or Labour give two hoots about those coming behind them. Most of them are ready to be pensioned off at this stage and the long game doesn't appear to be in their thinking.

    Enda's eyes are on Europe anyway.


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    #2100
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    sopretty wrote: »
    He has something on Enda for sure!

    I think it's more to do with, the sacking of Shatter would appear to the public that the Government were at fault. By not sacking him, the Government can pretend nothing is wrong. It's a constant when it comes to those in office.


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    #2101
    sopretty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭sopretty


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I think it's more to do with, the sacking of Shatter would appear to the public that the Government were at fault. By not sacking him, the Government can pretend nothing is wrong. It's a constant when it comes to those in office.

    That's a fair point. That said, do they think the public are thick?


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