Minister Shatter and Commissioner Callinan should both resign in disgrace

fr3d12

bubblypop wrote: »

Well, to be fair, I'm not saying their reasons were completely altruistic, but i don't think the public cares about why they did what they did, just that it was done.
So it really doesn't matter about my own personal views of those men.

That highlighted an issue, that I'm surprised was an issue.

I honestly think that there is issues in AGS that are a lot bigger!!!

OK, so let's hypothesise and say they had a personal agenda in doing what they did,do you believe they should not be listened to because they weren't genuine in their reasons?

Your attitude to the whole affair is way off , you're basically saying the penalty points issue is no big deal but it is a big deal for the people who lost loved ones on the road because of drivers were let off for no valid reason. Your opinion is the group think of the majority of members.

You seem to me to be advocating a system whereby those with connections can make a phone call and make things go away and I would seriously doubt the integrity of anyone who agrees with such practises, those who actually went on to pulse to cancel valid points should have been sacked immediately , God only knows what they are capable of doing for family and friends if it came down to it!

If there are bigger issues within AGS that need addressing it is your duty to report them through the appropriate channels of course, there would nothing to fear!

Conas

Alan Shatter will use blackmail to get himself out of this, he isn't going anywhere. He strolls around as if he were king, he has a shocking arrogance, and ignorance about him. He took the Goverment jet when he wasn't supposed to, but it will be at the taxpayers expense as always.

You wouldn't know what the hell this man is up to inside the Department of Justice. He's an awful crook. Enda Kenny is so weak, and has such a lack of spine, I'd say he's afraid of Shatter, and so are members of Dail Eireann, and members of the Irish public.

_Kaiser_

Conas wrote: »

Alan Shatter will use blackmail to get himself out of this, he isn't going anywhere. He strolls around as if he were king, he has a shocking arrogance, and ignorance about him. He took the Goverment jet when he wasn't supposed to, but it will be at the taxpayers expense as always.

You wouldn't know what the hell this man is up to inside the Department of Justice. He's an awful crook. Enda Kenny is so weak, and has such a lack of spine, I'd say he's afraid of Shatter, and so are members of Dail Eireann, and members of the Irish public.

It's actually a national embarrassment how weak our national "leader" is

- Quoting made up legislation in an effort support Shatter
- Telling his cabinet to stop discussing the matter in public
- Refusing legitimate calls for Shatter to go
- etc..

If some people actually still thought Kenny was in charge, the last few weeks have shown who's really pulling the strings in Ireland. He's even weaker in Europe. How anyone can still support him or his party/government is beyond me!
I've said it before here, but Enda Kenny is a contender for the worst Taoiseach we've had yet in this country - probably his only real achievement considering the standard set by his immediate predecessors.

One thing the current government has taught me is that FF really is the lesser of all evils in current Irish politics, and how (genuinely) sad is that for the future of this so-called modern, democracy of ours? Will we EVER grow up?

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Christ almighty you can't actually be saying that Enda is worse than Biffo? And FF the lesser of two evils? You have got to be joking. All of this happened under their watch too, you think friends of FF didn't have points written off etc? Granted Shatter and Kenny have handled this terribly and their arrogance disgusts (lol) me, but to claim they are worse than the party which led a wholesale collapse of the Irish economy is taking it too far.

Edit; I actually just realized how tragic it is that we are arguing about which is worse, the party that killed the Irish economy or the one which doesn't seem too pushed about equal justice for all citizens.

aloyisious

A brief synopsis of the Govt position, as I hear it.

1. The AG is made aware in Nov 2013 of a judge's decision to disbar Garda evidence because of the way it was obtained.

2. The AG inform's the Comm and they set up a working group to examine the situation.

3. Neither the Taoiseach nor the M of J were informed of the matter or the judges ruling.

4. However, GSOC had been made aware of the situation and had sent a report on it's findings to the Comm and the Dept of Justice.

5. The Govt claim's that the Taoiseach was only made aware last Sunday, and the M of J was only made aware on Monday night and only given the full facts yesterday.

6. It seem's that the AG did not inform the head of Govt and the M of J that the Gardai were involved in improper legal activities over several decades. They were cut out of the info loop.

................................................................................................


So... the bugging of the phones was done without warrant or legal authority, but might not be actually unlawful if there is no act or law (or section within) specifically barring the Gardai from such acts.

The GSOC was aware of the situation and it's report, plus it's forwarding of cases to the DPP for prosecutions against 3 Gardai (which lead to the recordings in the first case) so that might have further coloured Garda view of GSOC

It seem's the M of J has a strong work ethic (6 AM start) the AG had to tell him NOT to phone her before 7 AM on work matters. That does not seem to have been a happy work situation.

Re the Comm, there was the ruling by the Supreme Court two weeks ago that before the Gardai talked to any person they had suspicions against, they must caution that person that he/she is not obliged to talk to them without a legal rep being present. That ruling, along with the breaking news of the improper phone bugging (by people he is legally responsible for) for the gaining of prosecution evidence, might have tipped the balance toward retiring.

Doing devil's advocate for a mo (don't jump on me) if Alan is a hotshot on civil rights (new laws etc) it's just conceivable that some-one would not inform him of improper Garda actions as he would (presumably) act on it immediately, to the chagrin of AGS. That could be one explanation as to why the Dept Secretary did not inform him of the Comm's letter and it's contents. Even so, the D of J secretary should go for withholding the letter from the Min.

Contrarily to why Alan should go, it's possible that he might consider himself to have been put in such a situation by his Dept Secretary, by the AG and the Comm withholding of the bugging info from him, that he might resign in disgust from his position as M of J on the grounds that those three people had made the job impossible for him to fulfil.

_Kaiser_

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

Christ almighty you can't actually be saying that Enda is worse than Biffo? And FF the lesser of two evils? You have got to be joking. All of this happened under their watch too, you think friends of FF didn't have points written off etc? Granted Shatter and Kenny have handled this terribly and their arrogance disgusts (lol) me, but to claim they are worse than the party which led a wholesale collapse of the Irish economy is taking it too far.

Edit; I actually just realized how tragic it is that we are arguing about which is worse, the party that killed the Irish economy or the one which doesn't seem too pushed about equal justice for all citizens.

I agree that the tragedy is that we're reduced to arguing about which of them is the least worst option, but I maintain my position.

FF (and I'm no fan of theirs either!) destroyed the economy, but FG campaigned and won the election based on commitments to open, honest politics, a new approach/way of doing things etc

Instead, not only did they continue the same failed policies of their predecessors, they cemented the deal that will have the next generation of taxpayers picking up the tab for the mess. On top of this you have Reilly's strokes with the location of the primary care centres, Hogan's antics, Shattergate etc etc - all while Kenny appears on TV being led around by the nose by our "betters", or lecturing us on telly (safely hidden behind a camera rather than open to actual debate), or lecturing the opposition in the Dail but hiding behind deflection tactics at every turn (still blaming FF 3 years on / playing the man not the ball to avoid answering legitimate questions raised etc)

Cowen wasn't any better but ironically FF did deliver on what they promised, that the "party" would continue as long as it could.. even if it destroyed the country in the process! And sure, if the return of the property madness in South Dublin, the return of the supplements in the Sunday papers, and "write-offs" (but which is actually debt transfer to the taxpayer) for ordinary Joe who doesn't want to pay his mortgage anymore is any indication, aren't "we" all itching to get our groove on again?

mikep

As I mentioned early on in this thread, I reckon this is the most serious test of Enda so far which has just gotten bigger after yesterdays revelations..I have been wondering was this Callinans sting for Shatter on his way down..Imagine yesterdays conversation went like this:
Callinan: Morning Minister
Shatter: Ollie, how's it hanging??
Callinan: I regret to inform you minisiter I must RETIRE today to go be with my family, in fact I'm on my way to meet my little friend in the Indo now, he's penning my memoirs for me. I'm sure my RETIREMENT will ensure all these stories entertaining the proles will go away now and let you get back to being brilliant.
Shatter: That is a shame Ollie, we'll miss you...enjoy your RETIREMENT
Callinan heads away and turns back..By the way minister, how did you get on with that letter about the tape recordings that I sent you a couple of weeks ago, I'm sure your government are going to take it very seriously!
Shatter: Gulp

If Shatter sat on this Enda has to get rid of him, but won't...I reckon a senior civil servant will have to "retire" as "they failed to tell Shatter", remember he is THE BEST minister EVER!!!!

norrie rugger

bubblypop wrote: »

Handcuffs do not automatically mean trouble/hassle/harm.

It humiliates them and portrays an image that they are uncontrollable/violent, to anyone that sees them

norrie rugger

On topic, let's remember where the term came from

Woodville56

Bet the "Sir Humphreys "' and spinners in the Taoiseach's office and DoJ are in overdrive these days (and nights). Seems like Callinan and his supporters doing a bit of discrete whistleblowing themselves since his retirement !
Totally apolitical here and completely p****d off by the whole thing !
Seems to me Kenny, Shatter & their colleagues now doing what all governments so in similar situations , circle the wagons , create a dust cloud to distort facts and divert attention from the real issues, and them search out a scapegoat or two to hang out - in this case looks like some seniors in the DoJ or AG's office need to be watching their backs cos sure as hell their bosses won't take the rap !
If Kenny has any backbone and if he wants to come out of this mess with any credibility , he'd sack Shatter - just to many cock up's there now !! Oh, and take James Reilly with him !!
But we know this won't happen - they're Irish Politicians after all - they don't do resignation !! Besides , still a few years to go to top up those ministerial pension pots !!

tomdempsey200

plenty of these digital recordings getting deleted right now I'll bet

norrie rugger

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

plenty of these digital recordings getting deleted right now I'll bet

Of course they are, they can say that the Data Commissioner told them to do it yesterday!!

norrie rugger

norrie rugger wrote: »

It humiliates them and portrays an image that they are uncontrollable/violent, to anyone that sees them

so?
why does it matter that someone thinks an arrested person is violent/uncontrollable?
what has it to do with them?

if someone is treated well and respectfully and is handcuffed for everyones saftey, i fail to see a problem.

Banjo String

bubblypop wrote: »

so?
why does it matter that someone thinks an arrested person is violent/uncontrollable?
what has it to do with them?

if someone is treated well and respectfully and is handcuffed for everyones saftey, i fail to see a problem.

Clare Daly. Prob 8 stone, a TD, cooperative and coherent, and unable to give a sample due to the gards faulty equipment.

Are you seriously, seriously suggesting that she would have/could have been a threat to Gardai on the night in question?

C'mon now.

fr3d12

fr3d12 wrote: »

OK, so let's hypothesise and say they had a personal agenda in doing what they did,do you believe they should not be listened to because they weren't genuine in their reasons?

Your attitude to the whole affair is way off , you're basically saying the penalty points issue is no big deal but it is a big deal for the people who lost loved ones on the road because of drivers were let off for no valid reason. Your opinion is the group think of the majority of members.

You seem to me to be advocating a system whereby those with connections can make a phone call and make things go away and I would seriously doubt the integrity of anyone who agrees with such practises, those who actually went on to pulse to cancel valid points should have been sacked immediately , God only knows what they are capable of doing for family and friends if it came down to it!

If there are bigger issues within AGS that need addressing it is your duty to report them through the appropriate channels of course, there would nothing to fear!

ok, i'll reply to this, even though all this is way off-thread.

i do not advocate a system where you can make a phone call and get away with things.
there has ALWAYS been an appeals process when you receive a ticket.

secondly, only officers of inspector rank and above have the authority to cancel tickets. ordinary Gardai and Sergeants cannot.

i myself have two penalty points on my own licence.

i have no problem what so ever reporting anything i believe to be wrong/illegal in AGS, and i couldnt care less what others think.
i dont believe that i would be treated any different by my co-workers, and i dont believe i would be targetted for any kind of crazy behaviour.

to be fair, perhaps my personal feelings about these two men may come across as i think they were wrong, thats not true, im just not sure that they did things the correct way.
and i dont believe in leaking/passing private information about people to anyone.


back on thread, now that the commissioner has retired ( no doubt pushed, but he shouldve been long gone anyway )
i reckon Enda will wait a little while until he thinks the dust has settled a samll bit, then have a cabinet reshuffle.

Banjo String

Banjo String wrote: »

Clare Daly. Prob 8 stone, a TD, cooperative and coherent, and unable to give a sample due to the gards faulty equipment.

Are you seriously, seriously suggesting that she would have/could have been a threat to Gardai on the night in question?

C'mon now.

i have seen plenty of women smaller than that kick off, they can kick a driver, they can grab a drivers head/neck, they can spit, bite, pull hair and hit people just as well as anyone else.

by underestimating people you could be caught out.

Banjo String

bubblypop wrote: »

i have seen plenty of women smaller than that kick off, they can kick a driver, they can grab a drivers head/neck, they can spit, bite, pull hair and hit people just as well as anyone else.

by underestimating people you could be caught out.

I don't doubt you have.

Were they TDs though? Not off their face on drugs or drink?

Banjo String

Banjo String wrote: »

I don't doubt you have.

Were they TDs though? Not off their face on drugs or drink?

this is way off topic here.
if you want a discussion about garda procedure then we should discuss it on another thread.


just to point out that you have just advocated treating someone differently because they are a TD.
is that not how this whole thing started?
people being treated differently because of who they are/ who they know?

aloyisious

It seem's that this latest twist all revolves around the Sophie Toscan du Plantier murder case and Ian Bailey's defence discovery order against AGS. It seem's this includes phone tapes. it also seem's that something might have turned up on one of the tapes. Remember that a former DPP, Eamon Barnes, had not been happy about the way AGS had investigated Ian Bailey and built their case. In light of how it's been revealed that Gardai conversations had also been recorded on the tapes, that maybe, only maybe, such a conversation might have caught some of the investigators hiding evidence, or even worse, concocting evidence against Ian Bailey. This might be what excited the AG's interest as apparently the Ian Bailey case against the state is due to hit the courts this week.

ThisRegard

bubblypop wrote: »

just to point out that you have just advocated treating someone differently because they are a TD.

You've been claiming this since last night on a variety of threads, nobody is saying this.

Banjo String

bubblypop wrote: »

this is way off topic here.
if you want a discussion about garda procedure then we should discuss it on another thread.


just to point out that you have just advocated treating someone differently because they are a TD.
is that not how this whole thing started?
people being treated differently because of who they are/ who they know?

Well. On another thread you asked if she should be treated any different or given any special treatment because she was a TD.

I compared her breathalyser scenario, with another TD (now at the centre of this storm) and how he did indeed expect to be treated differently.

Good for the goose.

ThisRegard

ThisRegard wrote: »

You've been claiming this since last night on a variety of threads, nobody is saying this.

the whole thing started because people were getting tickets cancelled because who they knew or who they are.

thats what the whistleblowers brought to the public.

mickdw

aloyisious wrote: »

It seem's that this latest twist all revolves around the Sophie Toscan du Plantier murder case and Ian Bailey's defence discovery order against AGS. It seem's this includes phone tapes. it also seem's that something might have turned up on one of the tapes. Remember that a former DPP, Eamon Barnes, had not been happy about the way AGS had investigated Ian Bailey and built their case. In light of how it's been revealed that Gardai conversations had also been recorded on the tapes, that maybe, only maybe, such a conversation might have caught some of the investigators hiding evidence, or even worse, concocting evidence against Ian Bailey. This might be what excited the AG's interest as apparently the Ian Bailey case against the state is due to hit the courts this week.

This could get very very interesting.

doesnt look like alan shatter is going anywhere from watching that speech!

the man is so arrogant.

Floppybits

Jaysus Shatter showed no humility in that speech to the Dail, instead he went on the attack.

Floppybits

bubblypop wrote: »

doesnt look like alan shatter is going anywhere from watching that speech!

the man is so arrogant.

You could tell that by the way speech opened paying tribute to the Commissioner and not a mention of the Whistle blowers.

norrie rugger

bubblypop wrote: »

so?
why does it matter that someone thinks an arrested person is violent/uncontrollable?
what has it to do with them?

if someone is treated well and respectfully and is handcuffed for everyones saftey, i fail to see a problem.

Presumption of guilt, tarnishing of good name etc

Edit: Just like Callinan used to do it seems!

touts

bubblypop wrote: »

doesnt look like alan shatter is going anywhere from watching that speech!

the man is so arrogant.

Based on that speech he is more likely to bring in leglislation to outlaw the opposition and the media (who are apparently to blame for all this) than resign.

The ball is firmly in Gilmore's court now. He has to insist Shatter is sacked or the government falls.

charlie14

bubblypop wrote: »

i have seen plenty of women smaller than that kick off, they can kick a driver, they can grab a drivers head/neck, they can spit, bite, pull hair and hit people just as well as anyone else.

by underestimating people you could be caught out.

Jeez, not just leg irons needed so. Best to be sure. Handcuffs, leg irons and straightjackets for all suspects.
I was going to include gags, but felt that might be just a tad extreme.

sparkling sea

bubblypop wrote: »

i have no problem what so ever reporting anything i believe to be wrong/illegal in AGS, and i couldnt care less what others think.
i dont believe that i would be treated any different by my co-workers, and i dont believe i would be targetted for any kind of crazy behaviour.

to be fair, perhaps my personal feelings about these two men may come across as i think they were wrong, thats not true, im just not sure that they did things the correct way.
and i dont believe in leaking/passing private information about people to anyone.


back on thread, now that the commissioner has retired ( no doubt pushed, but he shouldve been long gone anyway )
i reckon Enda will wait a little while until he thinks the dust has settled a samll bit, then have a cabinet reshuffle.

You must be one of a very few people who would have no problem what so ever in reporting something wrong or illegal, human nature means that people will experience some form of anxiety in this situation. As for your co workers again its strange the you dont feel most would support you but some may not, its very black and white for you, its not like that in reality though, is it now, but it does explain why you dont seem to appreciate what the whistle blowers risked and faced for the good of everyone, including their co workers.
We are all in teams and all feel some sort of loyality, its very hard to do the right thing and thats probably why there was only 2 whistle blowers. The whistle blowers did pass the information on through the right channels, these didn't work, they tried other channels these were blocked.

As for the commissioner, only someone with complete tunnel vision would state that the commissioner retired. The commissioner "retired" because he was contacted by senior civil servants the night before this eposide became public knowledge and this was the option that was presented to him, thats being pushed. But you couldn't blame him even if he was happy to go along with this option, I'm sure this stain on record is upsetting to him.

Back on topic, the Anthony Holness case was the first proscution by the DPP following an investigation by the GSOC to result in a custodial sentence for gardai. Now this is an historical case in Irish history, yet the ex commissioner claims never to discussed this with the Minister or Justice - its beggars belief. He discussed Mick Wallace's penalty points because of public interest but not a cas that will go down it history ????? No sense or nonsense. The Morris Tibunal finding must have been coming back to haunt them and there was little reason to think anything had changed, so why did they??

The Minister for Justice who is seen by many as a font of all knowledge in the legal world area of fundemental rights, now claims that he never looked into the GCOS report on this case, despite its historical importance and no one even briefed him on this. Again, he is the Minister with responsibility for Justice and Defence but neither his department or him looked into this.

The Minister is on TV n trying to justify his actions and pass the buck yet again onto GSOC, they didn't contact him about this issue. The Anthony Holness case was a leading news story on both TV and in print, it was historical, it was a first. And even if wasn't, a citizen of this country had been assualted by gardai, GSOC had investigated and the DPP had successfully proscuted however our Minister for Justice and Defence never inquired into the specifics of the case - grossly neglectful behaviour at the very least IMO.

Minister Shatter should be sacked and its a shame on both FG and Labour that is hasn't happened yet.