Program Analysis - Programs rated, debated and berated.

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 12:25AM

harpstilidie wrote: »

Do more as in increase reps? Or weight?

Most definitely the weight....either on the whole...as in increase your starting weight or ramp up the weight set by set.

I'll definitely try and increase the density.

What most 'gym goers' lack in their training is 'intensity'...it's the biggest difference between athletes/gym stars and everyone else....it's not the exercises or the programs it's the intensity that the individual generates.

Improving the density of your training is a good way to 'generate' intensity without even really thinking about it.

Good luck.

wersal gummage · 04-09-2013 12:23PM

Have read through a large amount of this thread. Very interesting.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for where to start with mobility work?

Outside a very quick warm up and dynamic stretching, I don't do any mobility work. I've been weight training for a long time, am in good shape, no ongoing injuries and I'm fairly flexible but feel like I should start doing more mobility work and not sure where to start.

Thanks.

thegreatiam · 04-09-2013 12:25PM

wersal gummage wrote: »

Have read through a large amount of this thread. Very interesting.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for where to start with mobility work?

Outside a very quick warm up and dynamic stretching, I don't do any mobility work. I've been weight training for a long time, am in good shape, no ongoing injuries and I'm fairly flexible but feel like I should start doing more mobility work and not sure where to start.

Thanks.

start with mobilityWOD.com
start with video one and progress from there.
When you reach an area you have trouble with concentrate on that for a while before progressing.

and welcome to the pain.

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 01:16PM

wersal gummage wrote: »

Have read through a large amount of this thread. Very interesting.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for where to start with mobility work?

Outside a very quick warm up and dynamic stretching, I don't do any mobility work. I've been weight training for a long time, am in good shape, no ongoing injuries and I'm fairly flexible but feel like I should start doing more mobility work and not sure where to start.

Thanks.

I always compare mobility work to studying for exams....studying stuff that you already know is a complete waste of time...and that people tend to do stuff that they like.

You need to work out where and what you are lacking and hammer away at that.

thegreatiam · 04-09-2013 01:29PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I always compare mobility work to studying for exams....studying stuff that you already know is a complete waste of time...and that people tend to do stuff that they like.

You need to work out where and what you are lacking and hammer away at that.

also, its constant study that gets you there.
Like my teachers used to say on day one of the year.
just do a little bit of study on a daily basis, cover the stuff you go over in previous classes and you will be better prepared for the end of the year.

But no, I never did. and come exam time I'm doing course work for 10 subjects and trying to learn the whole syllabus in one evening.

With mobility work, no days off. Pick a body part or 2 and do 20 minutes a day.

Incorporate it into your routine. Don't just wait for a bus, wait for a bus doing ankle stretches.
Don't just watch tv, watch tv doing a quad stretch.
Dont just leave it for when youre going to the gym as part of your warm up.

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 01:39PM

thegreatiam wrote: »

also, its constant study that gets you there.
Like my teachers used to say on day one of the year.
just do a little bit of study on a daily basis, cover the stuff you go over in previous classes and you will be better prepared for the end of the year.

But no, I never did. and come exam time I'm doing course work for 10 subjects and trying to learn the whole syllabus in one evening.

With mobility work, no days off. Pick a body part or 2 and do 20 minutes a day.

Incorporate it into your routine. Don't just wait for a bus, wait for a bus doing ankle stretches.
Don't just watch tv, watch tv doing a quad stretch.
Dont just leave it for when youre going to the gym as part of your warm up.

We'll keep running with the study thing

How long would you have to have not studied your 2x tables to forget them?

I can squat ass to grass morning, noon or night...I can do it anytime and anywhere you'd like...are you saying I need to do mobility work every day to maintain it? That I should never have a day off from training it? I think you are wrong. I think my time is way better spent doing the thoracic and shoulder work I do where I have real ongoing issues. I work on what I need to work on not on the things that I know are fine.

I don't study my 2x tables every day and haven't studied them for years and each and every time I need to know them I still do. My ass to grass squatting mobility is the same...I don't 'train' it but every time I need to do I can.

If I go a few days without doing thoracic mobility work...I know it.

I put a heap of time into the stuff that I need and next to no time into the stuff that I don't need to worry about.

thegreatiam · 04-09-2013 01:41PM

thegreatiam wrote: »

When you reach an area you have trouble with concentrate on that for a while before progressing.

like I said

dor843088 · 04-09-2013 02:07PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I always compare mobility work to studying for exams....studying stuff that you already know is a complete waste of time...and that people tend to do stuff that they like.

You need to work out where and what you are lacking and hammer away at that.

^^^
Will hefferman top 10 quote for sure

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 02:13PM

thegreatiam wrote: »

like I said

Maybe I should do that as well...just quote my own posts and reaffirm that I already said it.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

You need to work out where and what you are lacking and hammer away at that.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Like I said.

As I said I would say.

thegreatiam · 04-09-2013 02:20PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Maybe I should do that as well...just quote my own posts and reaffirm that I already said it.

As I said I would say.

I'm not doing this today,

Can we just skip to the part where you cry that no-one listens to you and that you're really unappreciated around here and then storm off in a sulk for a few weeks?

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 02:35PM

thegreatiam wrote: »

I'm not doing this today,

Can we just skip to the part where you cry that no-one listens to you and that you're really unappreciated around here and then storm off in a sulk for a few weeks?

LOL.

Oh my God. You guys crack me up. This place really is something special...I check it out everyday and when I get time off I tend to post in blocks and then go back to working and just read and stay in touch. I always post with a smile on my face and any critique or criticism I get here I take with a grain of salt...I have worked my entire life in industries where conflict and actual real physical violence is an every day thing and then in my spare time I fight...it's my job and my hobby. If you SERIOUSLY think that anything anyone says to me ever upsets me then you've obviously never met me and have absolutely no idea who I am or what I am about.

I found your post hilarious and I thought you intended it as a joke....and made my own joke in what I thought was in the same vein. I always get the feeling here that those that go on and on about me having a cry or a sulk here endlessly might actually be projecting just a weeeeeee little bit.

Anyway...I've still a couple of days of leisure so you can be sure I'll be posting if and when I like and where I like just like everyone else here.

thegreatiam · 04-09-2013 02:38PM

there it is

Brian? · 04-09-2013 02:52PM

Right so, can we get back to program analysis now?

Everyone is agreed, mobility work is like studying for exams. Let's move on.

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 02:54PM

wersal gummage wrote: »

Have read through a large amount of this thread. Very interesting.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for where to start with mobility work?

Outside a very quick warm up and dynamic stretching, I don't do any mobility work. I've been weight training for a long time, am in good shape, no ongoing injuries and I'm fairly flexible but feel like I should start doing more mobility work and not sure where to start.

Thanks.

I think a good place to start would be to actually assess your mobility.

I've used this assessment for about 15+ years and had trainees doing it today in fact. It is an easy way to measure the progress of your mobility and stability in your lower body.

You can standardise it....video it every month and compare and contrast your progress...you can then see where you are improving and where you have problems and look to then work on them separately...be that issues at the ankle, knee or hip...be that on one side or both.

If you want a place to start....here it is....if you're not assessing you're guessing.

Brian? · 04-09-2013 03:00PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I think a good place to start would be to actually assess your mobility.

I've used this assessment for about 15+ years and had trainees doing it today in fact. It is an easy way to measure the progress of your mobility and stability in your lower body.

You can standardise it....video it every month and compare and contrast your progress...you can then see where you are improving and where you have problems and look to then work on them separately...be that issues at the ankle, knee or hip...be that on one side or both.

If you want a place to start....here it is....if you're not assessing you're guessing.

How good an idea is it to self assess though?

I wouldn't be confident in my own assessment at all, given previous miscalculations.

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 03:00PM

wersal gummage wrote: »

Have read through a large amount of this thread. Very interesting.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for where to start with mobility work?

Outside a very quick warm up and dynamic stretching, I don't do any mobility work. I've been weight training for a long time, am in good shape, no ongoing injuries and I'm fairly flexible but feel like I should start doing more mobility work and not sure where to start.

Thanks.

With regard your upper body...you could have a look at this video....again...I've used it for the best part of a couple of decades what I do now has barely changed.

Once again...there's nothing to stop you videoing it and being able to compare and contrast as you continue top work on it.

Will Heffernan · 04-09-2013 03:08PM

Brian? wrote: »

How good an idea is it to self assess though?

I think self assessment is a great idea. The group I train at the moment get assessed by me every 8 weeks and I know for sure and for certain that they are self assessing and looking to work on it on an ongoing basis.

I have a spot at work on a tiled floor where I do it myself I do it barefoot, I stick my big toe in the middle of the 'cross' in the tiled floor and I use milk tops as my markers and whip out the tape measure to keep the results in my diary.

It is really easy and straight forward to do....and just be honest with yourself. I am super strict on my form.

Easy to do....and I can tell if and when my mobility and stability is lacking. This is particularly of use when I've been injured and work or training....when I've taken a hard kick, got a corked thigh, jacked up my hip or back...I can see it in the results straight away and I know when I need to work harder to get myself back.

I wouldn't be confident in my own assessment at all, given previous miscalculations.

You should have more confidence in yourself.

Do it. Video it and post it here or stick it somewhere that I can see it and I'll be happy to tell you if my confidence in your ability to self assess was completely mistaken.

Sangre · 04-09-2013 03:21PM

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Ditch all your pressing movements...or more specifically any of the movements that give you discomfort and focus on the stuff that doesn't hurt...that and as I said earlier...doing work for your 'shoulder health'.

I'd be willing to bet you'll notice little decrement in your performance overall.

Funny, I had decided to do this exact thing yesterday. I don't have any discomfort when lifting but I feel my shoulder health and stability is holding back my strength as I keep plateauing on bench. (I have a winging of my shoulder on heavier pressing, both horizontal and vertical.)

So I'm going to take a few weeks off and focus on some shoulder health protocols e.g. Diesel Crew. Will be interesting to see where I am after a few weeks.

workoutadvice · 07-09-2013 12:36PM

would any of you good people mind having a look at my program and recommending any changes if there needed.

goals: get stronger / look better / add muscle
age:25
training back ground: have lifted regularly in past and got good progress up to 160 squat, 180 deadlift, 100 bench all with good technique while adding a good bit of muscle while staying lean, havent trained properly in 2 years due to laziness / circumstances im injury free.

place im training has no squat rack , olympic bars allright just no where to squat which is a pity because i love back squats. anyway heres what im thinking.

my gym doesnt have a foam roller but i intend on purchasing one,
5 - 10 min warm up before each session focusing on hip/ shoulder mobility
then working up to starting weights main lifts

Monday :
Deadlift 6x3
Lunges walking 3x12
Bench Press 3 x 6
DB Biceps Curls 3 x 12

Core:
Circuit of 3 ab exercises x 3
weighed crunch
reverse crunch
plank

Wednesday:
DB Goblet Squats 3x6
RDL 3x12
Chin Ups 3 x 6
Cable Tricep Press Downs 3 x 12

Friday:
D.B. clean and press 3 x 6
Dips Parallel Bars 3 x max
Inverted Row 3 x max

core
something similar to monday but diffrent excercises

Thoughts:

should i drop the d.b. clean and press for a barbell overhead press?

should i be maxing out on Parallel bar dips and inverted rows (im purpusly not maxing on chins as ive heard not going to falure is better?)

Is one chest excersice enough, barbell bench press? should i be doing a d.b. press as a assistance excercise, i have dips on friday but dont know if theres much of a cross over to bench strength with dips?

any comments / advice / telling me this is complete crap welcome

TimeToShine · 07-09-2013 04:54PM

Anyone take a look at this, simple push/pull, been doing it for nearly a year now, just haven't found the need to change even though it's recommended you don't stick to one program for too long. Info: 22, 5'7 80kg around 18-19% looking to drop it down to 13 or so and maintain muscle mass.

A:
Front squat
Barbell OHP
Bench press DB/BB alternating
Dips (weighted)

B:
Weighted wide grip pronated pullups (don't know if I should do chinups as well?)
Deadlift
DB/BB row alternating
Seated cable row
light facepull with focus on scapular retraction

Every now and again i'll do cleans instead of deadlifts but this is just a random fancy of mine rather than anything solid.

20 mins foam rolling and dynamic stretching before every session, 10 min static stretching after.

thegreatiam · 09-09-2013 09:33AM

TimeToShine wrote: »

Anyone take a look at this, simple push/pull, been doing it for nearly a year now, just haven't found the need to change even though it's recommended you don't stick to one program for too long. Info: 22, 5'7 80kg around 18-19% looking to drop it down to 13 or so and maintain muscle mass.

A:
Front squat
Barbell OHP
Bench press DB/BB alternating
Dips (weighted)

B:
Weighted wide grip pronated pullups (don't know if I should do chinups as well?)
Deadlift
DB/BB row alternating
Seated cable row
light facepull with focus on scapular retraction

Every now and again i'll do cleans instead of deadlifts but this is just a random fancy of mine rather than anything solid.

20 mins foam rolling and dynamic stretching before every session, 10 min static stretching after.

Similar to my program.
Except I do not alternate DB/BB
I also back squat on the other day.

Maybe consider alternating chin ups with pull ups.

Not sure about pull ups, rows and DL on the same day tho. Your back must be in bits after, would you be able to get maximum results from the back exercises like that?.

I do rows on the bench day. Maybe someone else can clarify which would be best.

Will Heffernan · 09-09-2013 10:20AM

thegreatiam wrote: »

Maybe consider alternating chin ups with pull ups.

Agreed.

Not sure about pull ups, rows and DL on the same day tho.

Agreed.

Your back must be in bits after,

Agreed.

would you be able to get maximum results from the back exercises like that?

Never understood people who do 'this'. See it quite a bit and I always shake my head in wonder. Maybe if you are a bodybuilder and you are doing 'back day' and you are deliberately doing back, followed by back and then a super set of back with other back work. But the B session makes absolutely no sense at all to me....what are we talking 250+ reps of back work? If you can deadlift after your weighted pull ups then you are either not doing enough reps or not using enough weight. If you can do your DB/BB rows after weighted pull ups and then deadlifting then....etc etc etc.

From what the OP posted I think the following makes much more sense:

A:
Front squat
Weighted wide grip pronated pullups
DB/BB row alternating
Dips (weighted)
light facepull with focus on scapular retraction

B:
Deadlift
Bench press DB/BB alternating
Barbell OHP
Seated cable row

Or something along those lines. I am not overly happy with it and it's not what I'd do or how I'd program it but it's what I'd do if I had a gun to my head and had to use the exercises given.

workoutadvice · 09-09-2013 07:47PM

bump* any one have anything to add to my program?

burrenguy · 09-09-2013 10:25PM

workoutadvice wrote: »

would any of you good people mind having a look at my program and recommending any changes if there needed.

goals: get stronger / look better / add muscle
age:25
training back ground: have lifted regularly in past and got good progress up to 160 squat, 180 deadlift, 100 bench all with good technique while adding a good bit of muscle while staying lean, havent trained properly in 2 years due to laziness / circumstances im injury free.

place im training has no squat rack , olympic bars allright just no where to squat which is a pity because i love back squats. anyway heres what im thinking.

my gym doesnt have a foam roller but i intend on purchasing one,
5 - 10 min warm up before each session focusing on hip/ shoulder mobility
then working up to starting weights main lifts

Monday :
Deadlift 6x3
Lunges walking 3x12
Bench Press 3 x 6
DB Biceps Curls 3 x 12

Core:
Circuit of 3 ab exercises x 3
weighed crunch
reverse crunch
plank

Wednesday:
DB Goblet Squats 3x6
RDL 3x12
Chin Ups 3 x 6
Cable Tricep Press Downs 3 x 12

Friday:
D.B. clean and press 3 x 6
Dips Parallel Bars 3 x max
Inverted Row 3 x max

core
something similar to monday but diffrent excercises

Thoughts:

should i drop the d.b. clean and press for a barbell overhead press?

should i be maxing out on Parallel bar dips and inverted rows (im purpusly not maxing on chins as ive heard not going to falure is better?)

Is one chest excersice enough, barbell bench press? should i be doing a d.b. press as a assistance excercise, i have dips on friday but dont know if theres much of a cross over to bench strength with dips?

any comments / advice / telling me this is complete crap welcome

I'm not qualified, i just have a great interest, so take anything I say merely as opinion.
Monday
Deadlift looks good.
You can do hack squats if you want to squat but don't have a rack. Its not the same, but its decent.
Bench press is grand, as is the arm work at the end.

Core
What I have seen recommended for core circuits is one trunk curling motion (crunch, ab wheel rollouts etc.) one rotational movement ( eg. lateral medicine ball throws) and a plank variation for time. Recommended was to have 1 day of weighted exercises, 3 sets of 10 reps approx and then a weighted isometric core exercise. The other day was a lighter day (up to 20 reps) and an unweighted plank hold.

Wednesday
Looks alright to me. I presume you're adding weight to the chins if you're doing a specific rep scheme. You could probably do biceps and triceps in the same workout if you want to include isolation exercises in your routine. You've no pressing movement on this day. Maybe you could consider doing the BB overhead press on this day?

Friday
Good to have the cleans in there, there a good exercise. I'd keep it if I were you and have the overhead press on Wednesday.
Regarding the dips and inverted rows.. if you have access to a dip belt, you could start adding weight once you hit 3 sets of 15-20. If not, slow down the tempo, add pauses, etc. to make it more difficult. For the inverted rows, once you're at 3 sets of 15-20 reps, you can do the same: add weight with a weighted vest/backpack/DB between your legs, or slow it down and add pauses.

You should notice some crossover between dips and benching, especially if you start to add weight.

any conditioning work in during the week? One or two sprint sessions a week are great if you're short on time.

anyway, enough rambling. I hope you got something useful from this. Good luck!

Zombienosh · 09-09-2013 10:26PM

Hey all,

Just got a quick question about squat supplement exercises....
I've got weak glute/abductor issues and my knees are going in. I'm dropping back the weight and focusing on the weakness during the squat, but what exercises could I add in that might help?

I'm doing a 5x5, I'm squatting 3 days.

I was thinking box squats might help? Or Bulgarian squats? What do you think?

thanks.

Chancer3001 · 09-09-2013 10:42PM

A- bench , squat, pull ups chin ups

B - deadlifts, rows, shoulders, arms.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun

Just wondering, my hamstrings are surely neglected here? Does anybody do hamstring specific work? Don't want to be too quad dominant.

RidleyRider · 09-09-2013 11:09PM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

A- bench , squat, pull ups chin ups

B - deadlifts, rows, shoulders, arms.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun

Just wondering, my hamstrings are surely neglected here? Does anybody do hamstring specific work? Don't want to be too quad dominant.

Throw in some SLDL's or GM's. And good luck getting up the following morning!

Alf Veedersane · 09-09-2013 11:35PM

RidleyRider wrote: »

Throw in some SLDL's or GM's. And good luck getting up the following morning!

Or RDLs. I remember the world of a pain from DOMS a day or two later.

Will Heffernan · 10-09-2013 06:33AM

Zombienosh wrote: »

Hey all,

Just got a quick question about squat supplement exercises....
I've got weak glute/abductor issues and my knees are going in. I'm dropping back the weight and focusing on the weakness during the squat, but what exercises could I add in that might help?

I know that people always think I am being an a-hole for some reason so I feel like I have to preface everything I say so don't take this the wrong way...you just need to squat properly...that's it. You don't need other exercises. You don't need to 'activate' your glutes and you should be wary of anyone that says rubbish like that. You need to ensure that you learn to squat properly and then do that each time you train and don't let your technique (i.e your knees go in) be compromised. If your knees are going in it's because you either can't handle the load or you can't squat.

I'm doing a 5x5, I'm squatting 3 days.

I was thinking box squats might help? Or Bulgarian squats? What do you think?

I think you are doing plenty of squatting and doing box squats and bulgarian squats are great but unless you learn to squat properly they won't make a lick of difference. Unless your technique is right push ups will help you just as much as box squatting...as in not at all.

thanks.

You're welcome.

Will Heffernan · 10-09-2013 06:37AM

Chancer3001 wrote: »

A- bench , squat, pull ups chin ups

B - deadlifts, rows, shoulders, arms.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun

Just wondering, my hamstrings are surely neglected here? Does anybody do hamstring specific work? Don't want to be too quad dominant.

I think you should just change the order:
A- bench, deadlifts, shoulders, arms.

B - pull ups chin ups, squats, rows.

4 times a week.

Soccer 3 times a week for cardio and fun.

Would make a lot more sense to me.

Program Analysis - Programs rated, debated and berated.

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