Program Analysis - Programs rated, debated and berated.

TheZ

Who else googled scap push ups and just tried to do them?

Will Heffernan

TheZ wrote: »

Who else googled scap push ups and just tried to do them?

I should of mentioned the lateral pterygoid muscle so boards.ie would of been a more educated and informed place today

Duck's hoop

Can you suggest an alternative to benching? Or is there in fact a real alternative to benching if you want the results that it can 'provide'?

I don't go heavy, or even near it on bench, BW or 10% over 3-5 reps would be about as bad ass as it gets, but it has improved how I look and upped my strength. As yet I've not noticed anything detrimental, but I'm getting a dodge left shoulder from other stuff.

So, continue as is or look for alternative to maintain da gainz?

Will Heffernan

Duck's hoop wrote: »

Can you suggest an alternative to benching? Or is there in fact a real alternative to benching if you want the results that it can 'provide'?

I don't go heavy, or even near it on bench, BW or 10% over 3-5 reps would be about as bad ass as it gets, but it has improved how I look and upped my strength. As yet I've not noticed anything detrimental, but I'm getting a dodge left shoulder from other stuff.

So, continue as is or look for alternative to maintain da gainz?

I'll make this brief...I like benching. Rather than looking for alternatives you should be looking at why you are having shoulder problems and fix that and then you won't need an alternative.

sweetthing

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I'll make this brief...I like benching. Rather than looking for alternatives you should be looking at why you are having shoulder problems and fix that and then you won't need an alternative.

What about pushups, though? If he's benching his bodyweight, then what's the difference between that and doing pushups, besides the fact that pushups engage more muscles and help increase stability.

I'm genuinely asking, by the way as I really know very little about fitness. I go through periods of weight training, and really enjoy it, but your previous posts about risks have got me thinking that maybe I'd be better off sticking to bodyweight exercizes, e.g convict conditioning

Will Heffernan

sweetthing wrote: »

What about pushups, though? If he's benching his bodyweight, then what's the difference between that and doing pushups, besides the fact that pushups engage more muscles and help increase stability.

I'm genuinely asking, by the way as I really know very little about fitness. I go through periods of weight training, and really enjoy it, but your previous posts about risks have got me thinking that maybe I'd be better off sticking to bodyweight exercizes, e.g convict conditioning

Bare with me. I am answering this on my phone rather than at my computer.

1. As I said...I like benching. The thing is you need to use the right tool for the job and if that job required benching than bench away.
2. That being said I've not benched in about 18 months.
3. I use push ups a lot and either do them in volume or I use a weighted vest or using bands to increase resistance.
4. My intention wasn't to 'scare' people off the gym. Merely to make people aware of the implications and ramifications of their exercise selection.
5. For the majority of regular gym goers push ups are enough...personally, if you can't bang out 45 push ups in a minute then you are not ready to bench and or have more important things to worry about than benching.

Does that clarify things for you?

Mellor

Might as well stick something up

Stats: 27, 5'9", 74.5kg
Objective: Strength training to supplement MMA and BJJ.
Prevent injury, increase strength, maintain current comp weight - getting leaner is a bonus.

Strength training 2 days a week (Tues AM and Thurs PM).
MMA/BJJ training on Weds, Fri, Sat
I try to work on additional flexibility work and other stuff like bridging at home when I can.

Program consists of two days, Chest/Back and Legs/Shoulders. Although within each the specific exercises alternate between A and B each week. Giving 2 variations for each day


Chest/Back - Tues AM
Warmup/Prep
2 rounds of;
Scap pushups, scap rows, band pullaparts, shoulder dislocates

Workout A Workout B
Bench Press x 5 Floor Press x 5
Ring Chins x 3 Pull ups x 3
Muscle up/Ring Dips x 1 Close grip pull-ups x 1
Barbell Row x 4

Legs/Shoulders - Thurs PM
Warmup/Prep
Foam rolling, thoracic mobility, leg raises, fire hydrants, mountain climbers, wall slides, shoulder dislocates

workout A workout B
Squat x 5 Deadlift x 5
Barbell Press x 4 DB Press x 3
Push Press/Jerk KB snatch x 1
Hang Leg Raises x 2


notes:
Bench/Floor/Squat/Deadlift/Barbell Press are ramped loads from very light up to to a heavy set of 5reps.
Can't do full muscle ups, its a single set with a slight jump to get into the dip position.
Jerk is a few low volume reps (3/2/1) at a weight that's 0-10kg heavier than barbell press set.

Will Heffernan

Mellor wrote: »

Might as well stick something up

Stats: 27, 5'9", 74.5kg
Objective: Strength training to supplement MMA and BJJ.
Prevent injury, increase strength, maintain current comp weight - getting leaner is a bonus.

Strength training 2 days a week (Tues AM and Thurs PM).
MMA/BJJ training on Weds, Fri, Sat
I try to work on additional flexibility work and other stuff like bridging at home when I can.

Program consists of two days, Chest/Back and Legs/Shoulders. Although within each the specific exercises alternate between A and B each week. Giving 2 variations for each day


Chest/Back - Tues AM
Warmup/Prep
2 rounds of;
Scap pushups, scap rows, band pullaparts, shoulder dislocates

Workout A Workout B
Bench Press x 5 Floor Press x 5
Ring Chins x 3 Pull ups x 3
Muscle up/Ring Dips x 1 Close grip pull-ups x 1
Barbell Row x 4

Legs/Shoulders - Thurs PM
Warmup/Prep
Leg raises, fire hydrants, mountain climbers, wall slides, shoulder dislocates

workout A workout B
Squat x 5 Deadlift x 5
Barbell Press x 4 DB Press x 3
Push Press/Jerk KB snatch x 1
Hang Leg Raises x 2


notes:
Bench/Floor/Squat/Deadlift/Barbell Press are ramped loads from very light up to to a heavy set of 5reps.
Can't do full muscle ups, its a single set with a slight jump to get into the dip position.
Jerk is a few low volume reps (3/2/1) at a weight that's 0-10kg heavier than barbell press set.

Do you ever do any testing? Assess your progress?

What do you squat or deadlift? Testing can take many forms...for instance you could have a look at your repetition effort work...if you don't want to/don't feel comfortable/aren't significantly confident and sound with your 1RM technique for example you could 'body weight' test. So for you that would be a 75kg test...could you do 15 squats below parallel with 75kg? Could you deadlift 75kg 15 times without breaking form? How many reps could you get benching 75kg? Can you do 15 pull ups with strict form...full hang at the bottom and chin over the bar? How many push ups could you do in 60 seconds? How many feet elevated strict form inverted rows could you do in 60 seconds...arms straight at the bottom...chest touch to the bar?

If we are just looking at you 'strength' program as a component of your complete program then these are the things I would be looking for...as a 'fighter' I'd want to be able to do 15 squats to depth with BW, 15 deadlifts, bench 15 reps, do 15 pull ups, bang out 45 push ups and 30 inverted rows in 60 seconds each....if I couldn't do any of them I would skew my program towards whatever I was weakest in. If there was more than one I missed I'd focus on the worst. Once I could do ALL of the above then I'd move on from there...but not before.

Just some initial thoughts.

Mellor

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Do you ever do any testing? Assess your progress?

Yeah, I try to test my lifts/myself every so often.
And I've gotten my BF% measured every 8-10 months as a measure of changes.


Something I wrote/repeated recently was;
"If your not assessing, you're guessing"

I'm not sure where I originally heard that. I think I got it from Tom, who got it from you.

What do you squat or deadlift? Testing can take many forms...for instance you could have a look at your repetition effort work...if you don't want to/don't feel comfortable/aren't significantly confident and sound with your 1RM technique for example you could 'body weight' test. So for you that would be a 75kg test...could you do 15 squats below parallel with 75kg? Could you deadlift 75kg 15 times without breaking form? How many reps could you get benching 75kg? Can you do 15 pull ups with strict form...full hang at the bottom and chin over the bar? How many push ups could you do in 60 seconds? How many feet elevated strict form inverted rows could you do in 60 seconds...arms straight at the bottom...chest touch to the bar?

I test both 1RM and repetition effort periodically.
1RMs were higher last year, when I was lifting 4 days a week (before MMA/BJJ took over) and when I was c.80-82kg.
When I tested in jan, lists were down 5% (as was bodyweight).
Goal would be to get back to those numbers.

It's actually coming up in my program now. From next week, I'll drop 5 reps to 3 reps for a couple of workouts. Get comfortable under the heavier load, get an idea where I'll aim for. Then I'll have a week or two where I test 1RMs

The weeks after that I'll test high rep. Max pull ups, BW bench, 75-100kg squat and deadlift etc.

Then I'll either return to 5 reps, or do a few weeks at 8 reps first.

If we are just looking at you 'strength' program as a component of your complete program then these are the things I would be looking for...as a 'fighter' I'd want to be able to do 15 squats to depth with BW, 15 deadlifts, bench 15 reps, do 15 pull ups, bang out 45 push ups and 30 inverted rows in 60 seconds each....if I couldn't do any of them I would skew my program towards whatever I was weakest in. If there was more than one I missed I'd focus on the worst. Once I could do ALL of the above then I'd move on from there...but not before.

I was actually aiming specifically for some of those targets last time. 15 Squats with BW, Bench 15 BW, 15 pull ups. Missed bench and pull ups by a few reps, got the squats. I'll add in the other next time, later this month.
Rather than psychically knowing you'd suggest them one day. I took them from Dan John, the Game Changers, as he calls them. Come to think of it, I think I've also heard him passing on your assessing/guessing line, maybe I heard it there too. Either way it stuck, along with the idea behind it.

sweetthing

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Bare with me. I am answering this on my phone rather than at my computer.

1. As I said...I like benching. The thing is you need to use the right tool for the job and if that job required benching than bench away.
2. That being said I've not benched in about 18 months.
3. I use push ups a lot and either do them in volume or I use a weighted vest or using bands to increase resistance.
4. My intention wasn't to 'scare' people off the gym. Merely to make people aware of the implications and ramifications of their exercise selection.
5. For the majority of regular gym goers push ups are enough...personally, if you can't bang out 45 push ups in a minute then you are not ready to bench and or have more important things to worry about than benching.

Does that clarify things for you?

Cheers, Will. Scared off is a bit strong, more that I'm just reassessing the need for the gym. I've always mostly relied on bodyweight exercises for my workouts,thanks to starting out with martial arts,and reckon they have contributed the most to any paltry strength I have developed, simply because I've been more consistent with them. And I agree with you about starting with pushups before you bench. I always found it strange when guys would start weight training who rarely did even a few push ups. And the upside is,the fatter I get, the more of a workout I get!

Sangre

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I'd be interested in hearing more about the reasoning behind the program structure and also some of the exercise pairings.

Reasoning: Just a mish-mash of exercises of think I should be doing (squats, rows, pull-ups) and ones I want to do (pistol squats, HSPUs) thrown in with gunz and abz 3x a week (which were neglected in previous years as they weren't hardcore enough). Overall, I try to keep some balance to programme (push vs pull).

Exercise pairings are utilised to combat both boredom and time restraints with not further thought other than "this exercise doesn't tire me out on the other one too much".

So as you were no doubt wondering, I have no idea what I'm doing.

puntosporting

puntosporting wrote: »

1. The objective of the program.

Stay injury free, grow and maintain muscle, lose bit of fat

2. Your current stats...age, weight etc etc.

90kg, 5 10", 33 years of age body fat higher than id like not beed measured in years but id say 15-18% lift 5 plus years ,torn ACL on right knee and repaired ACL successfully on left knee at moment!, struggling with a bit of a right shoulder problem as well affecting my pushing but ive recently started training with a swiss bar and generaly narrower grips and getting much better pain free movements! current lifts bench 100kg, squat 140kg, 1rm 160kg about 2 years ago, deadlift 160kg, my bench is down from 120 kg 1rm cant get near it at the moment since my shoulder trouble but Building up nicely again since knee injury on squat averaging +5kg a week, deadlift is increasing similarly bench is static but realy building tricep power and reps seem higher if weight is slower to increase!
3. The program can change randomly but generaly

Day 1
Deadlift, warm up 3 x 10, going heavier 1 x 6, 1 x 4, 1 x 2, singles and attempted max lifts adding weight!
Medium grip pullups 5 x 10 bodyweight.
Swiss bar clean and jerk adding weight per set usualy 4- 5 sets finishing at 4 reps'ish!
Bent over lateral raise lowish weights higher reps 10-12, 4/5 sets
Shrugs on hex bar 4-5 sets.

Day 2
Squat, warm up 2 x 10 going heavier 1x8, 1x6, 1x4, 1x2 singles and attempted max lifts adding weight!
Standing calf raises on smith 4-5 sets high reps adding weight.
Seated leg press higher reps 4 sets.
Single leg calf raises on leg press machine 4 sets
Usualy throw in some hamstring work like seated hamstring curl machine or lighter weight stiff leg deads.

Day 3
Bench press medium grip 2 x 12, 1 x 10, 1 x 8, 1 x 6 increasing weight as I go!
Standing shoulder press with swiss bar 4- 5 sets adding weight.
Weighted dips 4-5 sets 8-10 reps max added weight 30 kg!
Decline sit ups and weighted side raise for abs supersets .
Close grip incline bench on smith machine 4-5 sets increasing weight 6-10 reps
Tricep pushdown on cable machine 4 sets.

Rest Day

Day 4
Seated rows 4-5 sets adding weight .
wide grip lat pull down 4-5 sets adding weight
Dumbbell shrugs heavy as I can min 6 reps 4 -5 sets.
Bent over rows with oly bar adding weight 4-5 sets.
Upright rows 4-5 sets adding weight.

Day 5
Random arm day usualy can be anything on this day?
Usualy weighted pullups
weighted dips
some seated dumbbell curl variant
some pushdown tricep variant etc etc.

Now my diet is improving but not perfect its my real weakness that's my personal battle!
I realy enjoy my workouts and I am growing but when I read this back it looks a bit much?
I think I should throw in a cardio specific day instead of day 4 or 5 as im not doing anything at the moment bar the odd cycle weather dependant!
Another thing is my workout days are not exacting as in some days i randomly change an exercise depending on equipment available etc but for the main its close to the above!
Due to knee injury im finished with my hurling career and soccer career and have bulked a bit since stopping mostly lean which im happy with !
Just to add also using creatine and taking omega 3, msm, calcium/magnesium/zinc, glucosamine sulphate and b complex supplements daily.

I'd love to have some advise on this?
The other question I have is can you expect to drop bodyfat with diet alone and no cardio

Gummy Panda

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Bare with me. I am answering this on my phone rather than at my computer.

1. As I said...I like benching. The thing is you need to use the right tool for the job and if that job required benching than bench away.
2. That being said I've not benched in about 18 months.
3. I use push ups a lot and either do them in volume or I use a weighted vest or using bands to increase resistance.
4. My intention wasn't to 'scare' people off the gym. Merely to make people aware of the implications and ramifications of their exercise selection.
5. For the majority of regular gym goers push ups are enough...personally, if you can't bang out 45 push ups in a minute then you are not ready to bench and or have more important things to worry about than benching.

Does that clarify things for you?

I see what you mean in this thread. I do stuff in the gym I think I should be doing, rather then what I need to be doing.

It remind me of what my physio said after he assessed me: "its well and good having a bug bench and squat, but its all in straight lines. You'd be better off with more bodyweight, stability and metabolic work"

Sangre

I love how the next big thing on this forum for a month will be analysising whether your programme maxmimises your ability lift your grandkids in 50 years. Thereafter, it will be Intermittent Training (TM).

Sangre

puntosporting wrote: »

I'd love to have some advise on this?
The other question I have is can you expect to drop bodyfat with diet alone and no cardio

In answer to your second question: yes, absolutely. Of course, cardio has benefits other than weight loss.

Will Heffernan

Mellor wrote: »

Yeah, I try to test my lifts/myself every so often.
And I've gotten my BF% measured every 8-10 months as a measure of changes.

Good.

Something I wrote/repeated recently was;
"If your not assessing, you're guessing"

I'm not sure where I originally heard that. I think I got it from Tom, who got it from you.

Yes, I said that the day after I invented fitness.

I test both 1RM and repetition effort periodically.

Good.

1RMs were higher last year, when I was lifting 4 days a week (before MMA/BJJ took over) and when I was c.80-82kg.

So when you were training more and were focused on weight training alone your lifts were better. Very interesting.

Goal would be to get back to those numbers.

Why?

It's actually coming up in my program now. From next week, I'll drop 5 reps to 3 reps for a couple of workouts. Get comfortable under the heavier load, get an idea where I'll aim for. Then I'll have a week or two where I test 1RMs

The weeks after that I'll test high rep. Max pull ups, BW bench, 75-100kg squat and deadlift etc.

Then I'll either return to 5 reps, or do a few weeks at 8 reps first.

You'd decided what to do even BEFORE you test? Very interesting.

I was actually aiming specifically for some of those targets last time. 15 Squats with BW, Bench 15 BW, 15 pull ups. Missed bench and pull ups by a few reps, got the squats. I'll add in the other next time, later this month.
Rather than psychically knowing you'd suggest them one day. I took them from Dan John, the Game Changers, as he calls them. Come to think of it, I think I've also heard him passing on your assessing/guessing line, maybe I heard it there too. Either way it stuck, along with the idea behind it.

So Dan John's game changers are exactly the same as my testing standards and he often says 'If you're not assessing you're guessing'? Very interesting.

Will Heffernan

Sangre wrote: »

Reasoning: Just a mish-mash of exercises of think I should be doing (squats, rows, pull-ups) and ones I want to do (pistol squats, HSPUs) thrown in with gunz and abz 3x a week (which were neglected in previous years as they weren't hardcore enough). Overall, I try to keep some balance to programme (push vs pull).

All of the above looks good.

Exercise pairings are utilised to combat both boredom and time restraints with not further thought other than "this exercise doesn't tire me out on the other one too much".

Seems reasonable.

So as you were no doubt wondering, I have no idea what I'm doing.

Yes, I am a professional...I recognised that almost immediately I saw your program.

Will Heffernan

puntosporting wrote: »

I'd love to have some advise on this?

Talk to me about your program and what you are trying to do without mentioning any exercises.

What I see is just exercises.

A program should be like a set menu. I should be able to look at it and see what the entree is...what the main meal is and what's dessert.

Most peoples programs just look like a menu...lots of entree's, main meals and desserts...sometimes there's no entree's or no mains or no desserts. Sometimes it's just all desserts.

Yours on the other hand just looks like some ingredients and some different meals.

...now I am hungry and need to get something to eat...back shortly.

The other question I have is can you expect to drop bodyfat with diet alone and no cardio

Yes.

cmyk

sweetthing wrote: »

What about pushups, though? If he's benching his bodyweight, then what's the difference between that and doing pushups, besides the fact that pushups engage more muscles and help increase stability.

Just to add to what Will has already said, standard pushups don't equal bodyweight bench for several reasons. For a start your feet are supporting your body in a pushup which takes some of the load off the shoulders.

Also if you've got poor scapular control, shoulder issues (or heading for them), the same rules apply to a pushup, you still need to balance your programme and address your weaknesses and technique.

sweetthing wrote: »

I'm genuinely asking, by the way as I really know very little about fitness. I go through periods of weight training, and really enjoy it, but your previous posts about risks have got me thinking that maybe I'd be better off sticking to bodyweight exercizes, e.g convict conditioning

This probably comes more down to which sort of training you'd prefer to do. Personally I haven't picked up a weight for upper body training, except for some loaded stretching/mobility work since last summer, though I know nothing of how convict conditioning is set up.

puntosporting

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Talk to me about your program and what you are trying to do without mentioning any exercises.

What I see is just exercises.

A program should be like a set menu. I should be able to look at it and see what the entree is...what the main meal is and what's dessert.

Most peoples programs just look like a menu...lots of entree's, main meals and desserts...sometimes there's no entree's or no mains or no desserts. Sometimes it's just all desserts.

Yours on the other hand just looks like some ingredients and some different meals.

...now I am hungry and need to get something to eat...back shortly.


Yes.

Right you've basically just confirmed for me my problems!
I've felt like my routine is a bit aimless lately im trying to just train hard without structure?
Ill be honest I want to get bigger for no reason other than to be bigger and stronger! Im training now for as much of a pastime as anything else!
I've retired from gaa and soccer just one to many injuries and plan on using weights as my primary health and hobby if that makes sense?
I've 4-5 days a week and I want to make the best use of them to as I said earlier get bigger and stronger.
Feel free to rip my ideas of a routine apart?

cmyk

Sangre wrote: »

I love how the next big thing on this forum for a month will be analysising whether your programme maxmimises your ability lift your grandkids in 50 years.

I think that's a pretty solid goal. I'd bet we'd see some better programmes.

There's a lot of snobbery in the industry too. A lot of people (coaches and trainers included) seem to look down on others if they don't have a double bw deadlift or 1.5567 times bw bench...like it makes them less of a person....which ultimately leads to aimlessly chasing numbers and unnecessary injury.

Will Heffernan

puntosporting wrote: »

I'd love to have some advise on this?

Day 1
Your deadlifting day.

So I'd do some hip mobility work in your w/u and then deadlift.

You've pull ups here...as I've said previously...I think deadlifting and then doing pull ups/chin ups or associated back work is not optimal.

I think you would be better off doing either some horizontal pushing or vertical pressing.

You've a clean jerk variation here...and that seems fine and some shrugs.

So this day could look like this:
Deadlifts
Clean & Jerks
Shrugs

Day 2
Your squatting day.

You've squats and seated leg pressing and standing calf raises and seated calf raises? I think this is overkill. I think this would be a better day for the pull ups/chin ups from Day 1.

So this day could look like this:
Squats
Calf Raises - Alternate variation each session
Pull Ups
Tricep work - This is a more appropriate place to have it than later in the week.

Day 3
Your bench pressing day.

You've benching, shoulder pressing, dips, incline benching, tricep push downs. That is a huge amount of chest, shoulder and triceps work way out of proportion with the commensurate volume and out of balance with the rest of your program.

I think this would look better like this:
Benching
Rowing variation - DB Rows, Machine rows you could even super set this with some dips if you liked.
Core work.
Gunz to finish.

Rest Day

Day 4
Your back day....you really row, row, row your boat on this day.

If you like the back volume...go for it.
Seated Rows.
Lat Pull Downs
Dumbbell Shrugs
Upright Rows

Day 5
I think of all the days you've outlined this is the best designed and thought out...even if it isn't on purpose.
Weighted Pull Ups and Dips
Some DB Curls and Tricep Work.

That's just some thoughts off the top of my head. There's lots of way to do it...you need to start of with an 'objective' then look at the time you have and work out how to get that done in the time you have.

Personally I think people choose to do too much and spread their effort too thin.

Look at the last day...I know I could do weighted dips and weighted pull ups in such a way as that there would be no way I could do any supplementary bicep or tricep work.

Sangre

cmyk wrote: »

I think that's a pretty solid goal. I'd bet we'd see some better programmes.

I agree completely, just poking fun at the forum and its various mood swings from maximising gains to maximising life to maximising [insert anything].

The problem with that goal is its so ambiguous and distance. People need short to medium goals and results if they are to stick at something. Even if people are working away perfectly, they have no idea if the programme is successful and won't until they're 50.

I know you're not saying people shouldn't have shorter goals but I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of people are too impatient for such a goal, particularly if they aren't at an age or stage in life (e.g. kids) where such things start to weigh on their mind.

Will Heffernan

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I see what you mean in this thread. I do stuff in the gym I think I should be doing, rather then what I need to be doing.

You need balance. You need to do the stuff you like and the stuff you need. I tend to me more skewed to the stuff I like side than the stuff I need but pretty much get it all done.

It remind me of what my physio said after he assessed me: "its well and good having a bug bench and squat, but its all in straight lines. You'd be better off with more bodyweight, stability and metabolic work"

Let me just make this clear...I am not anti weight training or anti body building or anti powerlifting or anti anything else.

You just need to be aware of all the implications and ramifications of your choices. If you are...then more power to you.

I am all for people doing what they love and what makes them happy. I like fighting and doing MMA...I don't do it because it makes me fit and healthy. I do it because I like fighting and I love MMA....but a lot of the rest of my training is all about making sure my body is in the condition to do the thing I love, to stay injury free and perform as well as I can.

Will Heffernan

Sangre wrote: »

I love how the next big thing on this forum for a month will be analysising whether your programme maxmimises your ability lift your grandkids in 50 years. Thereafter, it will be Intermittent Training (TM).

I think a lot of people here might be missing the point.

I coach elite athletes and you better believe that they are squatting, deadlifting, benching etc etc.

Have a look at the fitness logs here and the threads and look at the injuries and disfunction.

People actually just don't have a clue what they're doing...the ones that 'think' they know the most are some worst culprits.

Forget picking up your grandkids in 50 years...a heap of regulars here could barely do it now...let alone hang on to those kids for 10 minutes. They be changing arms because of the elbow pain and shoulder discomfort. They'd be switching from foot to foot because of their hips and knees...these are the same people saying do 'starting strength' it's awesome for huge gainz.

Mellor

Will Heffernan wrote: »

So when you were training more and were focused on weight training alone your lifts were better. Very interesting.

In absolute term, lifts dropped a fraction. Which wasn't unexpected. In a (bodyweight) relative sense, they are currently a higher % of bodyweight.

Why?

No particular reason. It represents a small increase, it'd be the logical increase to aim for even if I never lifted it before.

You'd decided what to do even BEFORE you test? Very interesting.

No, of course not. That would require seeing the future.
I simply have a rough idea where I'm at beforehand. I might not hit it, ill go heavier if i can. I like structure so I plan out every workout. But I always adjust on the fly if its needed.

So Dan John's game changers are exactly the same as my testing standards and he often says 'If you're not assessing you're guessing'? Very interesting.

Well no actually.
Only bench, squat pull ups were the same. His DL game changer was 2xBW.
He also includes loaded carries as having the highest potential to be a game changer.

And I think his exact words were;
My friend Will Heffernan says "If your not assess..."

Will Heffernan

Mellor wrote: »

In absolute term, lifts dropped a fraction. Which wasn't unexpected. In a (bodyweight) relative sense, they are currently a higher % of bodyweight.

Wait a second...so now you are doing less weight training you're lifts have increased both in absolute and relative terms?

No particular reason. It represents a small increase, it'd be the logical increase to aim for even if I never lifted it before.

Cool.

No, of course not. That would require seeing the future.
I simply have a rough idea where I'm at beforehand. I might not hit it, ill go heavier if i can. I like structure so I plan out every workout. But I always adjust on the fly if its needed.

I like a man with a plan.

Well no actually.
Only bench, squat pull ups were the same. His DL game changer was 2xBW.
He also includes loaded carries as having the highest potential to be a game changer.

I suppose he had to disguise it some how.

And I think his exact words were;
My friend Will Heffernan says "If your not assess..."

...and here I was thinking we were so much more than 'friends'.

kevpants

To qualify this, I just spent my weekend digging a 20sqm hole that's 3 feet deep using 2 shovels, a pick, a wheelbarrow and a brother (from the same mother). That my body allowed me to do this and only objected through fatigue and no actual pain hopefully demonstrates that I "know what I'm doing" in that I've achieved what I've achieved without ruining my body. Gigantic isolated rhomboid aside.

I saw this thread and thought it might be a good place to outline how I got my raw squat from 500lb to 600lb and what the "program" looked like given I have no time to keep my log up to date. I can also touch on how I dropped a weight class during the period. I'm most definitely a squatter rather than a powerlifter so there's more context for you.

How I got to 500lb:
Really briefly, started out Westside yo, got reasonably strong, did some program hopping and injury seeking and eventually managed to break the 227.5kg (500lb barrier) and kind of hovered there. Duration of this period 4 years.

How I got to 600lb:
This period lasted only a year. From a training perspective it was a year of discovery and one where I realised what was required and what was fluff. Ironically a big thing for me was taking focus away from training. I know a lot of younger guys/gals with think about training and talk about it all day. Me too, but I changed that and made training secondary to loads of other things. As a dirct result it became more simple, I didn't have time to read what T-Nation told me to do so I was less distracted and I just trained.

The basis - We are talking about squatting now ok? Not on the field functionality or athleticism. It's below parralel, it's heavy and it makes you see little lights. The basis for building this is mixing volume with intensity and repeating.

The execution - This is not Busy at Maths 5 so I'm not going to debate 3x5, 5x5 or my 8 times table. Rep ranges I used were 5x5 and ascending sets of 3. The key is to do it multiple times a week and to ALWAYS add weight.
DO NOT LISTEN TO YOUR BODY.
Your body is a lazy piece of self absorbed emotion that you are trying to change into something better. You are there to beat it into shape, why the hell would you listen to it? Powering through and refusing to go backwards are the two biggest things I learned in this year. The phrases

"I think I'll leave it at that for today"

or

"Just not feeling it today"

must be purged from your internal monologue. If you have a session where 5kg has been added to the bar and you need to do 5 sets of 5 with it, that is what you do. Feeling like crap before or during the sets is to be expected. You need to reconcile the fact that 5 sets may take nearly 2 hours and you may be in physical distress throughout.

You will come acvross situation when you can't actually lift the weight prescribed. As in first set and you can't get near the right amount of reps. Then you need to take a few days off, not a week, don't come back to the gym for a "light" session, go to bed instead. This is not listening to your body, at this point your body is an unconscious twitching mess on the floor and you need to step away from it for a moment.

Assistance - Would you ever go away from me with your sh1tetalk. If what we want to do is squat more you need to squat in those sessions to the point where you're exhausted. You can do a rolling handstand planche get-up afterwards if you want but I think you're more likely to want to go home and cuddle your mammy if you're doing it right.

You can argue that imbalances need to be addressed etc but here's my take on it. I'm going to take my chances with my imbalances. I'm 33 next month. Much of the 4 years of faffing it took to get to 500lb was spent doing assitance work and addressing my imbalances and with the best will in the world my body still blew up fairly regularly. I did 2 things, stopped worrying about addressing imbalances and started training around them. How? Well I switched to sumo deadlifting and changed my squat technique to prevent my right SI joint from bursting into flames as it did every year for the previous 4 years. Believe it or not, I actually try to round my lower back when I squat now, not arch, round. No one ever told me this would work, i figured it out for myself and added 100lb to my squat thereafter. Whatever is up with the infrastructure down there it just works and nothing breaks when I do this. 40 is approaching and I want to achieve something with the limited time I have before I'm too old to. Food for thought.

The structure - You should easily get 6-8 weeks or that before your body is not able to cope with more weight being added etc. Taking a few days off then testing is needed to know where you are. This doesn't have to be a single, it could be a max set of 3 on its own. You just need to know where you are from time to time.

I re-read this and I sound like such a douche. I really should put on a TapOut t-shirt or something for all the hardcore-isms I've used but the message is simple.

Squatting is a very simple measure of strength and if your goal is to increase it you need to suffer. In my opinion all the assistance excercises in the world aren't going to help and I'll tell you why. It's far to easy to make them the focus. A bad session of squats or you're feeling a little tired and weepy and suddenly it becomes ok to drop back on them so long as you do loads of core work afterwards, and I'll leave you with this, it is in my ar5e.

the drifter

Kev...Do you give some sort of seminar..or maybe some online coaching?

LuckyLloyd

Ha! That's the other side of the coin I guess.