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Program Analysis - Programs rated, debated and berated.
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02-05-2013 10:36pm#1
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1. The objective of the program - Get stronger & keep some conditioning till Autumn time. Possibly return to MMA after 3 years out
2. age- 30 weight-74kg (up from 70 since January but don't look as fat
) Height- midget
3. The program
Day 1
Squat 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Bench 3×5 (+2.5 -5 lbs )
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes - Include sprints
Day 2
DL Heavy 1×5 (+5-10lbs)
Vertical Pull (prone grip) 3 x max reps
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes
Day 3
Off
Day 4
Squat 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Bench 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Sprint specific work (I'm so fecking slow)
Day 5
Power Clean 5×3 (add 2.5 lbs)
Vertical Pull (Supine Grip) 3 x max reps
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes
Day 6
Whatever is going on!
(add + weights per session, deload every 4-6 weeks)
Edit: Lots & lots of mobility work to fix my broken ass! Main focus ankles, hips & glute activation! I need to add rotational work!!!0 -
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The only comment/observation I'd make is that you might be better off switching the order of exercises. I think your numbers and the quality of your training would be elevated if you went as follows:1. The objective of the program - Get stronger & keep some conditioning till Autumn time. Possibly return to MMA after 3 years out
2. age- 30 weight-74kg (up from 70 since January but don't look as fat) Height- midget
3. The program
Day 1
Squat 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Bench 3×5 (+2.5 -5 lbs )
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes - Include sprints
Day 2
DL Heavy 1×5 (+5-10lbs)
Vertical Pull (prone grip) 3 x max reps
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes
Day 3
Off
Day 4
Squat 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Bench 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Sprint specific work (I'm so fecking slow)
Day 5
Power Clean 5×3 (add 2.5 lbs)
Vertical Pull (Supine Grip) 3 x max reps
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes
Day 6
Whatever is going on!
(add + weights per session, deload every 4-6 weeks)
Edit: Lots & lots of mobility work to fix my broken ass! Main focus ankles, hips & glute activation! I need to add rotational work!!!
Day 1
Squat 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Vertical Pull (prone grip) 3 x max reps
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes - Include sprints
Day 2
DL Heavy 1×5 (+5-10lbs)
Bench 3×5 (+2.5 -5 lbs )
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes
Day 3
Off
Day 4
Squat 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Vertical Pull (Supine Grip) 3 x max reps
Sprint specific work (I'm so fecking slow)
Day 5
Power Clean 5×3 (add 2.5 lbs)
Bench 3×5 (+2.5 - 5 lbs)
Conditioning block - up to 15 minutes
Day 6
Whatever is going on!
(add + weights per session, deload every 4-6 weeks)
Deadlifting and Chin/Pull Ups variations on the same say aren't optimal...doing back work (maximally static/dynamically) then back work (exhaustively dynamically) on the same day in the same session does not equal optimal performance in anyway shape or form.
Much better to do anteriorly focused leg work paired with posteriorly focused back work and vice versa.0 -
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Is there a club I don't know about? A secret society maybe?LuckyLloyd wrote: »So, like many others, I have enjoyed reading Will's posts recently.
So far so good. Let me go trough my mental checklist.However I'd imagine I'm not the only one grimacing a little at the implications. I'm 29 years old and 140kgs plus and got back into training properly with Crossfit Ireland at the end of January. It's tough, but I'm finding the environment really good. The coaches seem to really know their stuff and having your program designed for you and access to form and nutrition advice is brilliant.
1. Interested enough in health and fitness to read about it online....check.
2. 140kgs....hmmm. I am guessing that you aren't 8ft 4in which is what you'd need to have a mid range BMI so my guess is that you are overweight...so in need of a change of diet and lifestyle to improve your fitness and health....check.
3. Has managed to join a gym and remain a member while hopefully training consistently for over 4 months...check.
OK...so far so good...lets continue.
Posters do this a lot...it's like you are apologising for having an opinion. I know you are just being polite and a decent person but we might as well get a few things out of the way here as well.But it seems to me - and I've no doubt you'll correct me if I've interpreted you wrong
1. I am not the assh*le that people seem to think I am.
2. Even when I am ridiculing/lambasting/criticising someone I am doing it with a smile on my face...I don't post angry or upset. I fight pretty much every single day...I don't mean on the internet...I mean in real life and I fight a lot of people who REALLY don't like me and say awful things to me and THEY don't even get under my skin...believe me when I tell you this...no criticism or harsh words anyone has to say to me or about me on the interweb gets to me. So feel free to speak as directly and as bluntly as you like. If you think I am wrong or out of my mind...just say it and we can work from there.
3. It's not who can internet shout the loudest that matters...your opinion is your opinion and if I can't convince you that you are wrong and I am right if I disagree with it then it really doesn't matter.
So on we go.
Yes, but I have to qualify that. I will do this relatively quickly rather than in detail but hopefully you'll get my drift and if you don't then you can ask for clarification.- that you're suggesting people in my situation (i.e. someone who had got themselves quite unhealthy through years of no / bad training and poor diet) should leave aside intense, heavy or technically demanding training and instead go walking / jogging regularly combined with mobility and stability type work with some bodyweight resistance exercises (or some variation thereof). Look after the heart and try to undo the daily damage of sitting at a desk and eat well - i.e. forget about trying to hit PBs or get into top shape again, etc.
Looking at your statement piece by piece.
1. Yes, you should do some sort of cardiovascular work BUT that doesn't have to be walking...the effect can be gained in any number of ways...walking, cycling, swimming...or a weights circuit or touch football. What you need to look at is a cost to benefit analysis...would I choose swimming if I had dodgy shoulders...no. Would I choose walking if I had a dodgy knee....no. Would swimming be good for the person with the dodgy knee...yes. Would walking be good for the person with a dodgy shoulder...yes. Would a weights circuit that was developed with dodgy shoulders and dodgy knees in mind be a good option for both of them...yes. It is about finding the right solution for each individual...one thing isn't right for everyone but it can be right for lots of people.
2. Will proper mobility and stability work help...absolutely. Will it help everyone....absolutely. I am not saying it's essential...I know people who don't warm up at all...people who do no mobility and stability work. I also know heaps of lifters and athletes who spend half their time training around injuries and disfunction...do you know why a lot of people prefer sumo deadlifts? Do you know why most people change their bench technique? Do you know why some people don't have dips in their program? Do you know why some people don't overhead press? Do you know why some people in threads here on boards say chin ups are better for your shoulders than pull ups? Let me answer it for you...because people are retarded. Just because you can 'work around' something doesn't mean that you should. Have a bit of a think about this...have a look at old people...I mean really old people and think about the difference between the ones that you think...'I can't believe they are doing that at their age.' and then have a look at the ones that bring tears to your eyes and think about the difference between the two groups. The ones that are off on a cycling tour around Tuscany versus the ones in a walking frame, confined to chairs or bed for huge portions of the day. Then have a think about which group you want to be a part of? It is easy to be 'hardcore' in your 20's...even in your 30's...in your 40's hardcore takes management...in your 50's it takes luck. When you are in your 20's you can say 'F*ck you and f*ck your elbows.'. A lot of people who are saying that in their 20's won't have to say it in their 60's because they won't be alive and it really won't make a difference. As per usual...I could go on and on. Will scap push ups change your life...no...but you are a moron if you don't do them.
3. Resistance training...if you are in a gym and you like the gym then be all means go to the gym. I am all about finding the right solution for the right individual. What I am saying though is a lot can be achieved just doing body weight work. How many people do you know that have injured their backs or knees doing squats or deadlifts? Now, how many people in comparison do you think have injured themselves...damaged discs, ended up in rehab after doing lunges in the park? How many people have injured themselves benching as opposed to doing push ups. Have a think about all your pb's and all the training you do to achieve them...now ask yourself...do you compete? Do you often find yourself on your back pushing huge loads off yourself? Do you have a 150 kg vacuum cleaner at home that you need to pick up and put away? If you don't compete and you don't live in an alternate universe to me then why are you 'pushing the envelope' at training? Why are you even risking injury in pursuit of numbers that are never going to mean anything to anyone other than you? Strength training is great and the stimulus of strength training has hugely beneficial effects...you need to think about what your doing, how you are doing it and why is all. If you can rationalise it all to yourself...then go for it. All I am saying is there is a lot of ways to get the 'right/best' result.
Absolutely. Cost benefit analysis. If the cost is worth the return then go for it. I am just saying that most people don't understand the real costs...not in the short term and definitely not it the long term. If they did then most regular gym goers wouldn't be dealifting...they wouldn't be squatting and they certainly wouldn't be benching.Where would you set the cutoff point on this? Would you be of the opinion that anyone not chasing elite fitness for sport or competition should dial it down and focus on regular 'activity' and 'exercise' rather than 'training'?
I don't do as much coaching now as I did in Ireland...it's more a side job for me but the coaching I do now is with some pretty high level experienced athletes...guys that have 8+ years of elite sport and coaching. I spend my ENTIRE time at training coaching...correcting, altering and improving technique...think about that...these are guys that have been coached on deadlifting, squatting and benching their entire sporting lives and they require constant coaching. People here think that telling someone to go off and do starting strength and to drink a gallon of milk a day counts as good advice? They think nothing of it...now most people don't damage themselves because they are total pussies and don't end up squatting more than their bodyweight if they are lucky and most people don't even stick to training for more than a few months BUT it is moronic advice all the same. I am going to try and say this as nicely as possible but even a lot of the people who think they really know about fitness and training and are well read don't really understand the area...they think they do...but they don't and that is cool as well...because if you understand the fundamentals...how to put together and good balanced program and how to coach the lifts adequately then things will only go wrong maybe 20% of the time.
Sounds like pretty sound thinking to me.Or is it more that anyone who doesn't have the time or knowledge to put a balanced program together (i.e. 95% + of the population) and know what they need to do in terms of rest and nutrition should confine themselves to things that can't cause long term damage?
That sounds like a pretty good idea to me.This post to me seems to be touching the core of your positions on the type of programs people on here are likely to be doing and it might be the basis of your advice for most non professional / elite athletes - i.e. forget about intense strength training or trying to run a marathon or whatever, just enjoy regular activity.
As I say, if I'm way misinterpreting your recent posts I apologise.0 -
I am just as happy to have a interesting discussion on training as I am to read about people who only eat an apple a day.
Was that me?
In fairness, I ate three apples a day, unless I was fasting...
I do enjoy your posts Will, but where were you in the early nineties when I could have used your advice (I could use it now, but I'm so bloody lazy)
Anyway, the Apple Diet is mine, I used it and I'll franchise it out if anyone ever thinks it's a good idea again...hardly!
I'm going to read all your old posts now Will, it is a Bank Holiday like. Hope the weather is better where you are!0 -
If the apple fits.Deise Musashi wrote: »Was that me?
That's completely different thenIn fairness, I ate three apples a day, unless I was fasting...
Firstly, good to know that someone does and secondly, as far as coaching goes...in the early 90's I was pretty much just starting to do exactly what I am doing now.I do enjoy your posts Will, but where were you in the early nineties when I could have used your advice (I could use it now, but I'm so bloody lazy)
With good marketing...it could be a winner.Anyway, the Apple Diet is mine, I used it and I'll franchise it out if anyone ever thinks it's a good idea again...hardly!
That made me laugh. Make a collection of all the best ones for me.I'm going to read all your old posts now Will, it is a Bank Holiday like.
Actually categorise them for me...the helpful, the humorous, the argumentative etc etc.
It is beautiful here in sunny Melbourne...doing paper work...messing around on boards...taking meetings outside in the sunshine...it's all good.Hope the weather is better where you are!0 -
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A brilliant post? You mean compared to my usual ones?LuckyLloyd wrote: »That's a brilliant post Will, should be food for thought in there for most people, cheers.
Well if it was food for thought for you then that is good enough for me. Thanks for the positive praise...better than what I usually get here 0 -
Will Heffernan wrote: »A brilliant post? You mean compared to my usual ones?
Well if it was food for thought for you then that is good enough for me. Thanks for the positive praise...better than what I usually get here
I just think a well reasoned 'think about whether this is worth it' post is very worthwhile on page one of a 'program critique' thread.
I can only speak for myself of course, but coming on four months of training 4 times a week and adjusting diet I'm seeing results. But I'm also seeing problems. Is my new awesome (for me) 1 rep max deadlift or 500m row time worth the tendinosis in my knees or feeling beat to **** when sitting in the office most days? And even if it was, the 1 rep max deadlift isn't why I started doing this in the first place. The objective was 'get healthier' after all. So thanks for that. We probably shouldn't need someone to tell us this stuff - but your recent posts have put it together very well for me anyway. 0 -
I have to always try and remember what I said and where I said it...was it here...was it elsewhere...was it to someone or was it to a meeting. I am glad you are keeping on top of everything.LuckyLloyd wrote: »I just think a well reasoned 'think about whether this is worth it' post is very worthwhile on page one of a 'program critique' thread.
That's the best way to do it.I can only speak for myself of course,
Brilliant.but coming on four months of training 4 times a week and adjusting diet I'm seeing results.
Not so brilliant.But I'm also seeing problems.
Definitely not. You should absolutely talk to the lads and ladettes at your gym because I am sure that they'll want to keep you in the best shape possible. I am sure they'll be able to tune your training program appropriately.Is my new awesome (for me) 1 rep max deadlift or 500m row time worth the tendinosis in my knees or feeling beat to **** when sitting in the office most days?
I don't know whether I said it here or in another thread or whether I didn't say it at all but in short...when you are first starting out training...and by just starting out I mean the first couple of years of consistent training....all your physical capacities are not going to improve at exactly the same rate...and you AND your coaches need to be aware of that...to use your example...your aerobic capacity will improve faster than your muscular capacity and both of those will improve much faster than your connective tissues capacity to put the improvement in both of these into practice. So just because you CAN go harder doesn't mean you should...just because you CAN deadlift more one session to another doesn't mean you should...just because you can row further in your 500m time trial doesn't mean you should. Do you follow...there is nothing wrong with increasing your loading monthly rather than weekly.
Good. I'd rather see you fit for living rather than being the most ripped guy in the ER.And even if it was, the 1 rep max deadlift isn't why I started doing this in the first place. The objective was 'get healthier' after all. So thanks for that. We probably shouldn't need someone to tell us this stuff - but your recent posts have put it together very well for me anyway.0 -
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