British and Irish Lions vs Barbarian FC, Sat 1 June 12:30pm; Sky Sports 1

Bogota · 01-06-2013 1:48pm

Phillips is 10kg heavier than Murray and is 6'3, hes as big as a center

Lelantos · 01-06-2013 1:49pm

Bogota wrote: »

Phillips is 10kg heavier than Murray and is 6'3, hes as big as a center

I can't believe it's not butter

ed7890 · 01-06-2013 1:49pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

I dunno I've always felt despite his height he's more cut than big. What put's him in competition with Phillips is him being a bit smarter, having a better kicking game and at least matching him in defense.

O'Gara weighs 84kgs. No way Murray is that light. He was probably that light when he was in the academy, and they didn't update his stats for ages. The Munster site is really bad for that.

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 1:50pm

Lelantos wrote: »

I can't believe it's not butter

haha, ninja edit again

Why are people discussing the weights of Murray and Phillips anyway?

They both played well. Still think Youngs should be at 9 to get the best out of the rest of the backline though

Bogota · 01-06-2013 1:50pm

19543261 wrote: »

Murray was noticeably faster than Philips with his passing

In fairness to Phillips Murray had a much easier time at the break down by the time he came on. If you look at Murray's first two passes to Sexton they're shocking. Sexton literally has to jump to catch two consecutive passes. No point in getting the ball out fast if the passes are going to be like that.

01-06-2013 1:51pm

ed7890 wrote: »

O'Gara weighs 84kgs. No way Murray is that light. He was probably that light when he was in the academy, and they didn't update his stats for ages. The Munster site is really bad for that.

Ahaha, he does not!

Bogota · 01-06-2013 1:54pm

trouttrout wrote: »

haha, ninja edit again

Why are people discussing the weights of Murray and Phillips anyway?

They both played well. Still think Youngs should be at 9 to get the best out of the rest of the backline though

Do you have a problem with me editing my posts?

The weight of both players are being discussed because its quite clear that Phillips has a physical edge over Murray considering hes 10kg heavier! I would have thought that was obvious

leakyboots · 01-06-2013 1:54pm

Bogota wrote: »

In fairness to Phillips Murray had a much easier time at the break down by the time he came on. If you look at Murray's first two passes to Sexton they're shocking. Sexton literally has to jump to catch two consecutive passes. No point in getting the ball out fast if the passes are going to be like that

"Not one pundit has Murray starting ahead of Phillips. It really is no contest. The guy is leaps and bounds ahead of Murray

Great break but the two passes to Sexton in the lead up were awful

I've no idea what's the issue with saying Phillips is better than Murray. He evidently is. Every single pundit in Britain and Ireland has him starting. But apparently that's all nonsense because Murray plays for their team".

Here's another one for your bathroom wall

Bogota · 01-06-2013 1:56pm

leakyboots wrote: »

Here's another one for your bathroom wall

Yeah, the fact that I'm praising a player who was just awarded man of the match and scored two tries over a Munster player must mean its a homo-erotic obsession :rolleyes:

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 1:56pm

15 Hogg 6/10
14 Cuthbert 8/10
13 Davies 8/10
12 Roberts 8/10
11 Maitland 5/10
10 Farrell 5/10
9 Phillips 8/10
8 Toby F 6/10
7 Tipuric 7/10
6 Lydiate 6/10
5 POC 7/10
4 Gray 6/10
3 Jones 9/10
2 Hibbard 5/10
1 Vunipola 8/10

16 Youngs 6/10
17 Healy 7/10
18 Stevens 6/10
19 AWJ 7/10
20 Heaslip 7/10
21 Murray 8/10
22 Sexton 8/10
23 North 7/10

Ratings imo

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 1:58pm

Bogota wrote: »

Yeah, the fact that I'm praising a player who was just awarded man of the match over a Munster player must mean its a homo-erotic obsession :rolleyes:

I could be wide of the mark, but I think he might have been making a joke their chief

Buer · 01-06-2013 1:58pm

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

Farrell's been good at kicking and Jonathan has been good in play.

Hmm..

2 out of 5 isn't where Johnny want's to be at after the first match, that's for sure. Just a bad day I guess.

Hmmm nothing. There was a gulf between their performances and Sexton didn't even do anything special.

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 1:59pm

Conditions could have played a part in Sexton's kicking.

Zuffer · 01-06-2013 1:59pm

Disastrous day for 'Brand Lions'. Serious question marks over the choice of venue and opposition. Conditions meant that we couldn't get the exhibition rugby that the Barbarians are associated with. However, conditions aside, most of the Baa-Baas players didn't live up to their reputations. I felt sorry for them that their scrum clearly wasn't working, however they let themselves down in most of the rest of the game as well. Two wings and sub scrum half were the only ones looking like they were really trying. I'd single out Rokococo in particular for commitment. Despite a couple of moments of class from him, worst game I've ever seen Parisse play. The way he let Philips just get away from him for Lions second try was disappointing.

Give me Cardiff and Argentina next time.

Risteard · 01-06-2013 2:00pm

If Halfpenny is fit and starting at FB he could be first choice kicker in any case.

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 2:00pm

Buer wrote: »

Hmmm nothing. There was a gulf between their performances and Sexton didn't even do anything special.

He was far superior with ball in hand, his passing, ability to draw defenders and eye for space was much better

Bogota · 01-06-2013 2:01pm

trouttrout wrote: »

I could be wide of the mark, but I think he might have been making a joke their chief

If I was gay then surely I'd be opting for the scrumhalf who wears fake tan and straightens his hair, Connor Murray

danthefan · 01-06-2013 2:01pm

I thought Philips was pretty good anyway. Murray was also sharp when he came on. Bodes well.

thomond2006 · 01-06-2013 2:01pm

Bogota wrote: »

Yeah, the fact that I'm praising a player who was just awarded man of the match and scored two tries over a Munster player must mean its a homo-erotic obsession :rolleyes:

Chill a bit!

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 2:01pm

Bogota wrote: »

If I was gay then surely I'd be opting for the scrumhalf who wears fake tan and straightens his hair, Connor Murray

amm ok, this is getting weird

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 2:03pm

What happens if the Australians suss the breaking threat of Phillips though (as they've done before)?

And as much as I'd like to see him in a test, Murray won't be the answer off the bench if the above happens

Bogota · 01-06-2013 2:04pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Chill a bit!

Why? I'm perfectly chilled.

Bogota · 01-06-2013 2:06pm

trouttrout wrote: »

What happens if the Australians suss the breaking threat of Phillips though (as they've done before)?

And as much as I'd like to see him in a test, Murray won't be the answer off the bench if the above happens

Well if Phillips can't break then Murray doesn't have a hope to be honest.

Not trying to be offensive to Murray but hes a poor man's Phillips. Hes the same kind of player but less effective IMO. Phillips does everything he does and better. The best option is Phillips starting and then Youngs on bench to change things if its not working.

danthefan · 01-06-2013 2:08pm

Youngs has to be in the matchday squad because he's a foil to Philips and Murray. Philips/Murray would just be daft imo, they're the same player.

TimeToShine · 01-06-2013 2:13pm

Surely it's 1/2p to kick after that display. In any case it should be him kicking from the start, miles ahead in terms of raw consistency.

Mahatma Geansai · 01-06-2013 2:14pm

Bogota wrote: »

Well if Phillips can't break then Murray doesn't have a hope to be honest.

Not trying to be offensive to Murray but hes a poor man's Phillips. Hes the same kind of player but less effective IMO. Phillips does everything he does and better. The best option is Phillips starting and then Youngs on bench to change things if its not working.

Murray's breaking threat isn't as strong, but he is a better passer and kicker. Murray is probably the best alternative to either scrumhalf, but it might go against him as he isn't as fast as Youngs or as strong as Phillips. I was very impressed with his cameo though.

Sexton was good in general play when he came on, but his kicking was poor. He could (regrettably) miss out to Farrell for the 10 jersey if his kicking doesn't improve and Kearney edges Halfpenny for the 15 jersey. Without wanting to add to the Farrell criticism, we need Sexton for this tour as Farrell had 3/4 very poor moments today and very much looks the inexperienced 21 year old he is.

Swiwi · 01-06-2013 2:19pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Murray's breaking threat isn't as strong, but he is a better passer and kicker. Murray is probably the best alternative to either scrumhalf, but it might go against him as he isn't as fast as Youngs or as strong as Phillips. I was very impressed with his cameo though.

Sexton was good in general play when he came on, but his kicking was poor. He could (regrettably) miss out to Farrell for the 10 jersey if his kicking doesn't improve and Kearney edges Halfpenny for the 15 jersey. Without wanting to add to the Farrell criticism, we need Sexton for this tour as Farrell had 3/4 very poor moments today and very much looks the inexperienced 21 year old he is.

You can rest easy Mahatma Geansai, HP is close to the first name on the teamsheet. No disrespect to Kearney, but HP has been consistently excellent these last 18 months, and his goalkicking is world class. He's a nailed on starter. Rob's only hope is that HP is put at 14.

thomond2006 · 01-06-2013 2:21pm

Swiwi wrote: »

You can rest easy Mahatma Geansai, HP is close to the first name on the teamsheet. No disrespect to Kearney, but HP has been consistently excellent these last 18 months, and his goalkicking is world class. He's a nailed on starter. Rob's only hope is that HP is put at 14.

With the quality of the wingers in the squad that is an unlikely scenario IMO.

danthefan · 01-06-2013 2:22pm

trouttrout wrote: »

Conditions could have played a part in Sexton's kicking.

I think three of his kicks were from the touchline, everyone misses those.

Swiwi · 01-06-2013 2:23pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

With the quality of the wingers in the squad that is an unlikely scenario IMO.

We concur Thomond. It will be HP at 15, with 2 of Bowe, Cuthbert & North on the wings. Tommy's probably my favourite Irish player, so I really hope he rips it up against the Force or Reds, whichever side he gets to face.

bilston · 01-06-2013 2:24pm

Sorry but Sexton will not miss out to Farrell for the 10 shirt.

I really really wish people would stop fixating on goal kicking when it comes to judging an out half, especially when there are others who can kick in the team.

Sexton's kicking stats (with a different ball to the one they will use in Oz) was 2 from 5. That means the Lions scored 5 tries in the 20 mins he was on the pitch.

Honestly, and I'm not wanting to knock Farrell, but the gulf between Farrell an Sexton today was scary.

On Farrell the conditions were tough and he was no doubt nervous but I actually thought to myself during the game that Paddy Jackson, never mind Wilkinson, Biggar or even Madigan would have been a better option for the Lions than Farrell given other players can kick the goals. Anyway I hope he moves on quickly lets hope he has a better go of it next time out, for the next 5 weeks he isn't English, he is a Lion. His performance reminded me of Earls four years ago so hopefully he can raise his game just like Earls did on that tour.

the baby bull elephant · 01-06-2013 2:26pm

i love muddy rugby matches, makes me feel dirty

we win keith, we win

Swiwi · 01-06-2013 2:27pm

bilston wrote: »

Sorry but Sexton will not miss out to Farrell for the 10 shirt.

I really really wish people would stop fixating on goal kicking when it comes to judging an out half, especially when there are others who can kick in the team.

Sexton's kicking stats (with a different ball to the one they will use in Oz) was 2 from 5. That means the Lions scored 5 tries in the 20 mins he was on the pitch.

Honestly, and I'm not wanting to knock Farrell, but the gulf between Farrell an Sexton today was scary.

On Farrell the conditions were tough and he was no doubt nervous but I actually thought to myself during the game that Paddy Jackson, never mind Wilkinson, Biggar or even Madigan would have been a better option for the Lions than Farrell given other players can kick the goals. Anyway I hope he moves on quickly lets hope he has a better go of it next time out, for the next 5 weeks he isn't English, he is a Lion. His performance reminded me of Earls four years ago so hopefully he can raise his game just like Earls did on that tour.

I agree, because HP is such a good goalkicker, Sexton's place kicking doesn't come into the equation. In which case he wins hands down v Farrell.

Bogota · 01-06-2013 2:32pm

bilston wrote: »

On Farrell the conditions were tough and he was no doubt nervous but I actually thought to myself during the game that Paddy Jackson, never mind Wilkinson, Biggar or even Madigan would have been a better option for the Lions than Farrell given other players can kick the goals. Anyway I hope he moves on quickly lets hope he has a better go of it next time out, for the next 5 weeks he isn't English, he is a Lion. His performance reminded me of Earls four years ago so hopefully he can raise his game just like Earls did on that tour.

I don't think its possible to have a worse tour than Earls did. I may be wrong here but I think Earls was much younger than Farrell when he toured and a lot less experienced. He was completely out of his depth and it showed. In Farrell's instance, hes young but hes not that young and hes much more experienced than Earls. He was poor today but he's definitely not out of his depth in the way Earls was. I genuinely just think he had an off game. Hes already played in huge games for Saracens and England so I can't imagine nerves being too much of a factor.

I think Farrell is genuinely getting a hard time. Lots of comments on social media predicting that Farrell will go on to have a tour like Keith Earls did in 09. This all after one game, in incredibly humid conditions.

Mahatma Geansai · 01-06-2013 2:35pm

bilston wrote: »

Sorry but Sexton will not miss out to Farrell for the 10 shirt.

I really really wish people would stop fixating on goal kicking when it comes to judging an out half, especially when there are others who can kick in the team.

Sexton's kicking stats (with a different ball to the one they will use in Oz) was 2 from 5. That means the Lions scored 5 tries in the 20 mins he was on the pitch. .

People fixate on goalkicking, because that is one of Sexton's duties on the field. If his kicking doesn't improve - it should - Halfpenny needs to be involved. You can't afford to have a 2/5 kicker in a close match, regardless of how much better than Farrell he is.

thomond2006 · 01-06-2013 2:36pm

Bogota wrote: »

I don't think its possible to have a worse tour than Earls did.

Very poor in the first match but improved from there despite being moved from centre to fullback (scored a try against the Cheetahs and Emerging Boks). I do think it's possible!

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 2:37pm

Bogota wrote: »

I don't think its possible to have a worse tour than Earls did. I may be wrong here but I think Earls was much younger than Farrell when he toured and a lot less experienced. He was completely out of his depth and it showed. In Farrell's instance, hes young but hes not that young and hes much more experienced than Earls. He was poor today but he's definitely not out of his depth in the way Earls was. I genuinely just think he had an off game. Hes already played in huge games for Saracens and England so I can't imagine nerves being too much of a factor.

I think Farrell is genuinely getting a hard time. Lots of comments on social media predicting that Farrell will go on to have a tour like Keith Earls did in 09. This all after one game, in incredibly humid conditions.

You're in complete fantasy land. Earls had a stinker of a first game but he did fine on the 09 tour. Certainly not the nightmare you're making it out to be

Flincher · 01-06-2013 2:38pm

Bogota wrote: »

Well if Phillips can't break then Murray doesn't have a hope to be honest.

Not trying to be offensive to Murray but hes a poor man's Phillips. Hes the same kind of player but less effective IMO. Phillips does everything he does and better. The best option is Phillips starting and then Youngs on bench to change things if its not working.

There's no need to go into what Phillips offers (it was fairly obvious today), but I would have thought Murray has a better kicking and defensive game to be honest, and is passing was definitely sharper today. I thought Phillips threw a few sloppy passes early on.

It did look like a fairly significant part of the Lions gameplan was creating space around the fringes for the scrumhalfs to exploit. Obviously the Barbarians weren't going to be the most organised defensively, but a pattern of to the short side twice, and then going open seemed to open up space around the rucks 15 metres in from the touchlines. If they can recreate the space throughout the tour then all 3 scrumhalfs a very capable of exploiting it.

Bogota · 01-06-2013 2:38pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Very poor in the first match but improved from there. I do think it's possible!

He improved but he was always out of his depth. I just meant that I don't think its possible that you'll ever see a player on a Lions tour that was so 'green'.

Farrelly certainly isn't green and I can't see him having the sort of tour that Earls did. I'd put it down to an off game rather than nerves or inexperience. There's a massive difference in the level that Earls was at when he first toured and what Farrell is at now.

Bogota · 01-06-2013 2:41pm

trouttrout wrote: »

You're in complete fantasy land. Earls had a stinker of a first game but he did fine on the 09 tour. Certainly not the nightmare you're making it out to be

He had a nightmare on the tour. He said it himself in an interview that he wasn't ready and he hit a serious dip in confidence after the tour.

awec · 01-06-2013 2:41pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

People fixate on goalkicking, because that is one of Sexton's duties on the field. If his kicking doesn't improve - it should - Halfpenny needs to be involved. You can't afford to have a 2/5 kicker in a close match, regardless of how much better than Farrell he is.

Halfpenny will be involved either way.

There is nothing to stipulate that goal kicking has to be one of Sexton's duties either.

Anyway, his kicking is fine. Total non-issue.

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 2:42pm

Bogota wrote: »

He had a nightmare on the tour. He said it himself in an interview that he wasn't ready and he hit a serious dip in confidence after the tour.

When did Earls say he had a nightmare on the Lions tour and was not ready for it? Link?

danthefan · 01-06-2013 2:43pm

trouttrout wrote: »

You're in complete fantasy land. Earls had a stinker of a first game but he did fine on the 09 tour. Certainly not the nightmare you're making it out to be

No matter what Earls does, how many mistakes he makes, there's always someone who'll say "his tackling is fine" or "his passing is fine" when it's patently untrue. He was never in contention for the test team, and Ugo Monye was. Really.

neilmulvey · 01-06-2013 2:43pm

I wouldnt be concerned about Sextons kicking. He missed a few. Every player no matter how good they are has those days. Sexton, injuring permitting is nailed on test starter and I think Best, O'Connell, Heaslip and O'Driscoll will also be thereabouts.

Possibly an Irish/Welsh only test team.
Halfpenny, Cuthbert, O'Driscoll, Roberts, North, Sexton, Phillips, Heaslip, Tipuric, Warburton, O'Connell, Wyn Jones, Jones, Hibbard, Healy

Today was basicallly a waste of time. I think the Lions need to seriously consider playing a game in the home nations on a rotational basis before each tour even if its a Lions Barbarians selection from Rabo/Aviva leagues, guys who missed selection but who might want to make a final impression in case of injury/suspension. Might provide more of a spectacle too.

Mahatma Geansai · 01-06-2013 2:44pm

awec wrote: »

Halfpenny will be involved either way.

There is nothing to stipulate that goal kicking has to be one of Sexton's duties either.

Injuries and dips in form happen. Maybe Racing will send ROG over for a few weeks to sort Johnny's kicking out

.

Mahatma Geansai · 01-06-2013 2:47pm

danthefan wrote: »

No matter what Earls does, how many mistakes he makes, there's always someone who'll say "his tackling is fine" or "his passing is fine" when it's patently untrue. He was never in contention for the test team, and Ugo Monye was. Really.

Yawn. Earls could win IRB world player of the year and a majority of this country still wouldn't rate him. He only does wrong according to some.

danthefan · 01-06-2013 2:48pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Yawn. Earls could win IRB world player of the year.

No he couldn't.

Stopped reading.

awec · 01-06-2013 2:50pm

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Yawn. Earls could win IRB world player of the year and a majority of this country still wouldn't rate him. He only does wrong according to some.

Well, I don't think we ever have to worry about that situation arising anyway.

trouttrout · 01-06-2013 2:50pm

danthefan wrote: »

No he couldn't.

Stopped reading.

Yes, because he was being completely literal :rolleyes:

Anyway Earls was only dragged into this because of some weird comparison with Farrell. Nothing to do with the Lions this year or the game that was just played

Bogota · 01-06-2013 2:55pm

trouttrout wrote: »

Yes, because he was being completely literal :rolleyes:

Well, in fairness people are only saying that Earls wasn't ready for the Lions when he toured and was nowhere near being in contention to start. I don't think that means people have a vendetta against him as you and mathama seem to be implying.

Just to be clear, do you think that Earls was in fact ready and that he was actually in contention for a starting position?

British and Irish Lions vs Barbarian FC, Sat 1 June 12:30pm; Sky Sports 1

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