Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

corktina · 25-04-2013 9:41am

nokia69 wrote: »

100Kmh for 2 hours would be easy with todays batteries no need to wait 100 years

have you heard of lithium ion batteries ? they are getting better every year

you seem to think that we only have lead acid batteries

but you are right external power may also be used, the germans are working on powering lorries and trucks on motorways using overhead wires, buses could use the same system

as a rule of thumb i'm inventing i would say the weight of the batteries needed will increase by the cube as speed increases by the square, thus a point will come when it isn't physically possible to go any faster . I don't beleive it will be possible to carry enough batteries of whatever type to run at speed for long distances. never mind the economics of it or the axle-load weight restrictions

corktina · 25-04-2013 9:48am

steamengine wrote: »

The Germans already have electric trains, so electrified roads if it ever came about would augment their rail system. It seems once again, judging from some of the posts on this issue that in Ireland we know better - electrify the roads rather than rail - and slot us into max speeds of 62.5 mph, or thereabouts for evermore. It's the same brand logic that saw Dublin's tram system scrapped back in the mid 1900's only to start re-instating it a half century later.

hold on to your hats, I agree with steamengine!

If you are talking loonnng term, then electrified railways carrying predominantly freight (with local deliveries by battery lorry). Passenger travel will be increasingly unnecessary as more work and shopping is done online. What travel is left will be mostly for pleasure on nice quiet roads with electric cars,

Won't be for a couple of centuries though and I might not still be around (might be you never know!)

nokia69 · 25-04-2013 10:14am

corktina wrote: »

as a rule of thumb i'm inventing i would say the weight of the batteries needed will increase by the cube as speed increases by the square, thus a point will come when it isn't physically possible to go any faster . I don't beleive it will be possible to carry enough batteries of whatever type to run at speed for long distances. never mind the economics of it or the axle-load weight restrictions

my rule of thumb is that you don't know what you are talking about

cgcsb · 25-04-2013 12:00pm

n97 mini wrote: »

Personally I find two things wrong with the train on this route, and in general. The price, and the times.

The price you've already touched on. In the UK you can pay £4 or £40 for the same journey, depending on how far in advance you buy. It should be the same here... I have no problem with the £40 ticket, as long as there is the opportunity for early birds to get the £4 ticket.

Timing is problem on the whole network, imho. The last train leaving the 2nd biggest city in RoI for the biggest city in RoI should not be at 2020. Instead it deserves a time like 0220. The same with the last train from Belfast, the last train to Maynooth (on Sundays in particular).... and so on. Timing on IE strikes me as being dictated by the Catholic church: they need to get punters home in time for a decade of the rosary followed by bed, as that's what's best for them.

I'd imagine it's dictated by the unions who couldn't possibly have their darling drivers working past midnight without tripple pay.

Losty Dublin · 25-04-2013 12:42pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd imagine it's dictated by the unions who couldn't possibly have their darling drivers working past midnight without tripple pay.

Drivers currently work 24/7 rosters and have done so for over 150 years; there was a time when more trains rain at night than at day. While there are some services that may warrant a later service I'd like to know where all these passengers are to justify 24 hour trains. I've been on the last train out of Cork and packed it certainly isn't, save for Sunday or bank holiday Monday's.

corktina · 25-04-2013 1:09pm

nokia69 wrote: »

my rule of thumb is that you don't know what you are talking about

well then,presuming you DO know what you are talking about, show us the figures on how many batteries you would need (you did say it was possible now didn't you?) (and how much they would weigh and how much space they would take up) Lets say to propel 6 passengers coaches train with 360 passengers at speeds of up to 100mph for 160 miles, stopping at three points intermediately and taking 2 hours to do so.

bk · 25-04-2013 1:45pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Drivers currently work 24/7 rosters and have done so for over 150 years; there was a time when more trains rain at night than at day. While there are some services that may warrant a later service I'd like to know where all these passengers are to justify 24 hour trains. I've been on the last train out of Cork and packed it certainly isn't, save for Sunday or bank holiday Monday's.

I agree there isn't sufficient demand for late night train services.

However there is enough demand for late night intercity coach services and BE should have been doing this for years. But they didn't bother and now the private operators are satisfying that demand.

It was crazy that you could get between Ireland two largest cities by public transport after 8pm.

Losty Dublin · 25-04-2013 2:23pm

bk wrote: »

It was crazy that you could get between Ireland two largest cities by public transport after 8pm.

Passengers were actually accomodated over the years on the late night mail trains between Dublin/Dun Laighaire and Cork/Cobh, Belfast, Limerick and Galway , as well as between Rosslare and Cork/Cobh. Needless to say, numbers were generally few and far between on these services but it was there.

n97 mini · 25-04-2013 5:50pm

If there is a demand for an all night bus service between Dublin and Cork/Galway/Belfast/Limerick etc., how could there not be a demand for an all night train service?

Priced competitively, with its advantages -- toilets as standard and catering -- it could take over the market.

Like all IE's other operations it would not be profitable (but that doesn't stop them!)

Jamie2k9 · 25-04-2013 5:52pm

n97 mini wrote: »

If there is a demand for an all night bus service between Dublin and Cork/Galway/Belfast/Limerick etc., how could there not be a demand for an all night train service?

Priced competitively, with its advantages -- toilets as standard and catering -- it could take over the market.

Like all IE's other operations it would not be profitable (but that doesn't stop them!)

The only late night demand for buses is from airprots. It would be madness to have trains running with operating costs, staffing and catering costs just how much are you prepared to pay to have all these costs covered.

n97 mini · 25-04-2013 6:03pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The only late night demand for buses is from airprots

For starters that couldn't be further from the truth. Personally I know plenty of people that use a late night bus to avoid having to pay for accomodation.

The other thing is no-one said the train would be profitable. I don't think any part of the train service is profitable including the DART.

Arguably a late night service to Cork would lose less money than the Sligo line, or that branch line in Tipperary, or the WRC.

Jamie2k9 · 25-04-2013 6:06pm

n97 mini wrote: »

For starters that couldn't be further from the truth. Personally I know plenty of people that use a late night bus to avoid having to pay for accomodation.

The other thing is no-one said the train would be profitable. I don't think any part of the train service is profitable including the DART.

Arguably a late night service to Cork would lose less money than the Sligo line, or that branch line in Tipperary, or the WRC.

Well here's a news flash, Irish Rail's current financial problems and people want un profitable late night trains to start.

A bus has 50 seats and a train has 200 isn't that enough said to see why it wouldn't work. If the train was full everynight of the week there would still be big losses involved.

nokia69 · 25-04-2013 7:07pm

corktina wrote: »

well then,presuming you DO know what you are talking about, show us the figures on how many batteries you would need (you did say it was possible now didn't you?) (and how much they would weigh and how much space they would take up) Lets say to propel 6 passengers coaches train with 360 passengers at speeds of up to 100mph for 160 miles, stopping at three points intermediately and taking 2 hours to do so.

I said it is possible to build a battery powered electric bus that could travel between dublin and cork, and I also say it will happen before irish rail run an electric train between the two cities, you claimed it was impossible, it would never happen in 100 years

but now you are changing the arguement and asking me to prove that its possible to build a battery powered train that could travel 100mph for 160miles

well for your information both are possible, in fact we had battery powered trains in ireland back in the 30s, and that was well before lithium ion batteries

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/feb/03/battery-powered-intercity-trains-possible-study

like I said you dont know what you are talking about

corktina · 25-04-2013 7:41pm

fair comment ,i misunderstood about the bus/train thing.

So how many batteries would be needed to power a coach to Cork at 100 km/h max, carrying 50 passengers and doing the journey in 2 hours or so?and how much would they weigh? and how big would they be? I don't think it's possible or economic because the faster and further you want to travel, the more batteries you'd need. My theory is if you increase the speed by the square, you would need to increase the battery power by the cube, as a rule of thumb)

seeing as you mention the Drumm railcar, they weren't high speed long distance vehicles. How many batteries would it take to power the equivalent (in terms of speed and capacity) of a 6 piece 22xxx unit 160 miles Dublin to Cork in 2 hours and a bit,. If (for instance) to double the speed you would have to treble the batteries installed , you would soon get to the "impossible" point.

No I don't know what I'm talking about, never said I did, but I think I'm nearer to it than you are.

nokia69 · 25-04-2013 8:23pm

corktina wrote: »

fair comment ,i misunderstood about the bus/train thing.

So how many batteries would be needed to power a coach to Cork at 100 km/h max, carrying 50 passengers and doing the journey in 2 hours or so?and how much would they weigh? and how big would they be? I don't think it's possible or economic because the faster and further you want to travel, the more batteries you'd need. My theory is if you increase the speed by the square, you would need to increase the battery power by the cube, as a rule of thumb)

seeing as you mention the Drumm railcar, they weren't high speed long distance vehicles. How many batteries would it take to power the equivalent (in terms of speed and capacity) of a 6 piece 22xxx unit 160 miles Dublin to Cork in 2 hours and a bit,. If (for instance) to double the speed you would have to treble the batteries installed , you would soon get to the "impossible" point.

No I don't know what I'm talking about, never said I did, but I think I'm nearer to it than you are.

thats a picture of the model S battery pack, 90KWH, its big enough to drive a car and its passengers 265 miles or 426km, my guess is that 4 or 5 of these could power a bus with 50 people between dublin and cork at 100kph

L1011 · 25-04-2013 8:42pm

nokia69 wrote: »

thats a picture of the model S battery pack, 90KWH, its big enough to drive a car and its passengers 265 miles or 426km, my guess is that 4 or 5 of these could power a bus with 50 people between dublin and cork at 100kph

Your guess defies the laws of physics.

nokia69 · 25-04-2013 8:58pm

MYOB wrote: »

Your guess defies the laws of physics.

nope

put please tell me where I am wrong

corktina · 25-04-2013 9:13pm

a coach weighs somewhere around 14 tonnes, a car weighs one tonne give or take,also has more wind resistance and rolling resistance....

L1011 · 25-04-2013 9:14pm

nokia69 wrote: »

nope

put please tell me where I am wrong

Tesla Model S - 2.1 tonnes

Setra coach - 14.5 tonnes

That's 7 times more weight to be moved, coupled with more energy required for acceleration and a far higher wind resistance; before we even get to the 53 vs 4 people + luggage loads.

corktina · 25-04-2013 9:17pm

back to my square vs cube arguement really... and once you exceed a certain weight with all thse batteries, you'll need another axle and that's more rolling resistance and weight to overcome.

nokia69 · 25-04-2013 9:27pm

MYOB wrote: »

Tesla Model S - 2.1 tonnes

Setra coach - 14.5 tonnes

That's 7 times more weight to be moved, coupled with more energy required for acceleration and a far higher wind resistance; before we even get to the 53 vs 4 people + luggage loads.

In Europe electric bus Solaris Urbino 8,9 LE[33] with about 100 km (60 miles) range and about 120 kWh battery pack was introduced in September 2011. Production model should be available in 2013.

if a 120kWh pack can give a range of 100km for the city bus above then 4 or 5 90kWh packs on on intercity bus would have enough range to travel between Dublin and cork, and yes I do know that each pack adds extra weight and I do know that an intercity bus has the aerodynamics of a brick, but it is not against any law of physics to build and intercity bus with todays battery technology

Thunder Sky Energy Group[27] of Shenzhen, China (near Hong Kong) builds lithium-ion batteries and has four models of electric buses, the ten passenger EV-6700 with a range of 260 km (160 mi), the TS-6100EV and TS-6110EV city buses (top speed 80 km/h), and the 43 passenger Thunder-Sky-EV-2008 highway bus (top speed 100 km/h), which has a range of 300 km (190 mi). The batteries can be recharged in one hour or replaced in five minutes. The buses are also to be built in the United States and Finland.

looks like the chinese have built more or less what I'm talking about, maybe you should pay them a visit and tell them to stop breaking the laws of physics

foggy_lad · 25-04-2013 9:34pm

MYOB wrote: »

Tesla Model S - 2.1 tonnes

Setra coach - 14.5 tonnes

That's 7 times more weight to be moved, coupled with more energy required for acceleration and a far higher wind resistance; before we even get to the 53 vs 4 people + luggage loads.

A normal family car weighs in at about 1.2tonnes so the Tesla is so much heavier that the weight of the unladen coach is going to be increased pro-rata, the unladen battery powered coach will weigh in at least 22 tonnes and probably a lot more. now increase the size of batteries to allow for the increased weight and we have even more weight on board!

corktina · 25-04-2013 9:40pm

three times the distance at three times the speed with more resistance to counter for just 4 or 5 times the power.... be sensible...the coach weighs around ten times the weight of a car (Focus for instance 1.3 tonnes) and on top of that weight you'd have an extra , what? 7 tonnes of battery pack to shift......plus the rolling and wind resistance

L1011 · 25-04-2013 9:54pm

nokia69 wrote: »

In Europe electric bus Solaris Urbino 8,9 LE[33] with about 100 km (60 miles) range and about 120 kWh battery pack was introduced in September 2011. Production model should be available in 2013.

if a 120kWh pack can give a range of 100km for the city bus above then 4 or 5 90kWh packs on on intercity bus would have enough range to travel between Dublin and cork, and yes I do know that each pack adds extra weight and I do know that an intercity bus has the aerodynamics of a brick, but it is not against any law of physics to build and intercity bus with todays battery technology

100km range of city driving (slower travel with regenerative braking) does not equate to 100km at 100km/h.

nokia69 wrote: »

looks like the chinese have built more or less what I'm talking about, maybe you should pay them a visit and tell them to stop breaking the laws of physics

That bus is absolute vapourware. They aren't actually manufactured.

steamengine · 25-04-2013 10:13pm

Intercity trains powered by an overhead or third rail system, with its inherent simplicity, ample accelerative power, plus constant running speeds of at least 160 km/hr would be way more practical than battery powered bus/coaches.

Dragging a power source around, in the form of a battery bank weighing tons, really isn't all that clever at the end of the day when there is a tried and tested mode with a remote power source, considerably less rolling friction and wind resistance at hand.

n97 mini · 25-04-2013 10:26pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If the train was full everynight of the week there would still be big losses involved.

If losses were a reason not to run trains there wouldn't be a single service in the country.

corktina · 25-04-2013 10:28pm

AGAIN, I'm going to agree with steamengine. !!!

I don't think wiring motorways for trucks and buses is going to work....few trucks or buses pick up/drop off on motorways, so you'd have to wire every road or carry aorund a battery pack which isn't very efficient as already said.

Grandeeod · 26-04-2013 1:11am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Drivers currently work 24/7 rosters and have done so for over 150 years; there was a time when more trains rain at night than at day. While there are some services that may warrant a later service I'd like to know where all these passengers are to justify 24 hour trains. I've been on the last train out of Cork and packed it certainly isn't, save for Sunday or bank holiday Monday's.

This is a difficult one. The 150 year thing is a read herring in my opinion. The railway was a very different place 150 years ago. It was an industry that exploited workers and hence unions developed. However unions gained so much control that they virtually dictated what happened. It is true to say that the mix between railway operations and the unions has somewhat muddied the waters. Perhaps the railway network was viable when workers had no rights and it became somewhat unworkable when they did. There is no disputing the elevated union action once they gained control and perhaps that has chipped away at the railways ability to be workable. However I appreciate that things change. There has been massive change in recent years with unions. Some give, but realistically one must look at the luas and how it was ripped away from CIE amid the creation of the RPA and its private contract with Veolia. What does that tell us? It tells us that a Government didn't trust CIE to deliver and run it. Why? Strikes. Contracts. Semi Sate eventualities. etc etc. There is absolutely no trust in CIE at Government level, but it is bigger than them and they don't have the guts to do anything about it.

Grandeeod · 26-04-2013 1:20am

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Passengers were actually accomodated over the years on the late night mail trains between Dublin/Dun Laighaire and Cork/Cobh, Belfast, Limerick and Galway , as well as between Rosslare and Cork/Cobh. Needless to say, numbers were generally few and far between on these services but it was there.

Time for change.

The mail trains were phased out for a variety of reasons. Passenger accommodation was phased out before the mail trains bit the dust. It was a planned run down of mail trains and in a completely different era to now.

Jamie2k9 · 26-04-2013 1:42am

n97 mini wrote: »

If losses were a reason not to run trains there wouldn't be a single service in the country.

That may be the case but it still dosn't justify running new services that would be even more loss making than current services.

Could the train once again be the King of the Dublin/Cork route?

Comments