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how many bodies...Eamon Gilmore

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    #62
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    I believe this is ridiculous carry on yet again by our government when challenged or criticized by SF, It is not good enough to use past IRA atrocities/murders as a stance as a defence in any and all economic matters.Sinn Fein tds are elected by the people and if FG/LAB want to propose a motion in dealing with SF past there are procedures in place to do so. This is schoolyard politics which to be truthful is standard practice on this Island. If your only reply is to deflect what are you deflecting from. he and his buddy's in Labour and indeed FG conviently ignore Gilmore old friends such as Cathal Goulding Sean Garland and the Official IRA and not forgetting Pronsious de rossa who was convicted and jailed for IRA membership.


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    #63
    dickwod1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭dickwod1


    I just watched it and im shocked at his responses, His first answer was to stutter and say "I've said previously ..." and read off a sheet of paper a somewhat legal statement referring to numerous names and bodies that made no sense and then his second answer was to verbely attack bully and threaten a member of the dail ... He and the whole Labour party has lost it, Drunk on power.


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    #64
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    OneIdea wrote: »
    Moments ago on RTE Live - Leaders Questions

    QUOTING: Minister Eamon Gilmore


    What an awful stupid thing to say Live on TV...

    EDIT: Its in relation to this post(10) further down this page.

    Watch from 18 minutes http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10096998/ Remark is said at 28 minutes

    Its what we've come to expect from this coalition government and politicians in general. Instead of actually giving a straight answer to a straight question we get the instant 'You put the country in this mess' to Fianna Fail and the even more distasteful 'How many bodies lie underground because of Sinn Fein'.

    Fact is politics in Ireland now consists of this petty one-upmanship and slanging match every Dáil session, hell even last years presidential election bordered on and perhaps even descended into farce with the despicable carry on of Gay Mitchell and some of his fellow FG heads

    The ironic thing is they are all as bad as each other.


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    #65
    waster81
    Registered Users Posts: 749 ✭✭✭waster81


    super_furry wrote: »
    It's a valid question. Their armed wing buried so many that they forgot where they left the disappeared.

    How many bodies are there in the ground due to Fine Gael in the past, has he thrown this question out to Enda


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    #66
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    It's simply not good enough from both govt parties.
    Some will fall for the sidetracking - hopefully a lot more won't.

    (And the hypocrisy is outstanding especially from the likes of Sticky Gilmore)


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    #67
    waster81
    Registered Users Posts: 749 ✭✭✭waster81


    super_furry wrote: »
    I love this whole Sinn Fein double think where everyone is just expected to forget the atrocities their armed wing were carrying out under the same leadership in the living memory of nearly all voters. Its the same up the North, where they hold power and are enacting many of the same decisions that they're slating the government down here for.

    Is everybody expected to forget what Fine Geal ( michael collins etc did in the past)

    They enact decisions in a different area where comparisons can not be easily made for example household charge up the north is always cited yet they get a lot more in return for this charge than we will


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    waster81 wrote: »
    Is everybody expected to forget what Fine Geal ( michael collins etc did in the past)

    They enact decisions in a different area where comparisons can not be easily made for example household charge up the north is always cited yet they get a lot more in return for this charge than we will

    It sickens me that Collins and his like put their lives on the line so that these truly vile individuals inherit priveleged political positions and power a few decades down the line but at the same time it is we the electorate that are to blame. Our mentality hasnt evolved since the pro treaty v Anti Treaty battle for power 1922 onwards. We should start to encourage new movements through future generations and ideals and consign the existing political 'framework' to the dustbin.


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    #69
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    Gilmore and Kenny are fooling nobody by being deliberately evasive in answering questions from Sinn Fein. I'm no fan of the Shinners but they're entitled to an answer if they put a question to the Taoiseach or Tanaiste. If Mary Lou McDonald's question was spurious and without foundation, then Gilmore should have dismissed it out of hand. The fact that he prevaricated and tried to change the subject does no favours for the supposed "openness" that this Government promised us.
    Gilmore's spin doctors should have a quiet word in his ear, although on second thoughts, maybe they should keep their mouths shut because I'm looking forward to seeing Labour being wiped out at the next election, despite the fact that I've voted Labour in every council election, general election and European election since I was 18.


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    #70
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    OCorcrain wrote: »
    Labour in their manifesto pledged to end cronyism and corruption in Irish politics, now they perpetuate it. She was well within her right to put forward that question as they are completely contradicting what they pledged to do.
    But she didn't ask a real question. It was an accusation veiled as a question. It was impossible to answer without looking like you're admitting to something. It's the oldest and cheapest trick in the debating book.
    I cannot believe what I just read, I know people who have suffered from domestic abuse and for you to just throw something like that around as a disgusting comparison is abhorrent and moronic.

    You should be ashamed of yourself.
    False indignation worthy of the Dail. Its a commonly used example of a loaded question. Don't read into it, there's nothing there.


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    #71
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Harry Angstrom wrote: »
    Gilmore and Kenny are fooling nobody by being deliberately evasive in answering questions from Sinn Fein. I'm no fan of the Shinners but they're entitled to an answer if they put a question to the Taoiseach or Tanaiste. If Mary Lou McDonald's question was spurious and without foundation, then Gilmore should have dismissed it out of hand. The fact that he prevaricated and tried to change the subject does no favours for the supposed "openness" that this Government promised us.
    Gilmore's spin doctors should have a quiet word in his ear, although on second thoughts, maybe they should keep their mouths shut because I'm looking forward to seeing Labour being wiped out at the next election, despite the fact that I've voted Labour in every council election, general election and European election since I was 18.

    The problem is in Ireland is when one crowd fails they automatically switch to the other crowd as was seen in the crazy 18 months or so in the early 1980's when FG/Labour coalition were in power, then FF, then FG/Labour again. There was either little other choice or we as an electorate have no imagination, perhaps a bit of both

    There seems to be no political movement to challenge these elite parties. Sure SF have rose in popularity the last few years but i suppose there will be always big question marks over them. More other parties formed like the PD's in the past but it would seem their ideals were not too far away from their 'parent' party FF. The Green party in my opinion were shysters with no real interest in a switch to green only unrealistic spoof and used their power as a way of making money.


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    #72
    Harry Angstrom
    Registered Users Posts: 19,351 ✭✭✭✭Harry Angstrom


    seamus wrote: »
    But she didn't ask a real question. It was an accusation veiled as a question. It was impossible to answer without looking like you're admitting to something. It's the oldest and cheapest trick in the debating book.

    The situation with Reilly and his allocation of primary care facilities has yet to be adequately explained. Labour sold Roisin Shortall down the river, and now seem to be adopting the ostrich approach on it, despite the fact that Shortall has been subsequently vindicated. The whole thing stinks.


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    #73
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    COYW wrote: »
    My guess is that SF launched into one of their "victim" style rants and Gilmore decided to "fight fire with fire".


    Such a shame that the 'great' Eamon and his other incompetents refuse to 'fight fire with fire' when they are in Frankfurt or Brussels, preferring instead to hide behind the curtins or be content to receive a pat on the back or a peck on the cheek from Angela and co.
    I look forward to the next election when FG will experience a similar meltdown to FF and Labour will be consigned to the dustbin of history joining the PDs and the Greens.


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    #74
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    washman3 wrote: »
    Such a shame that the 'great' Eamon and his other incompetents refuse to 'fight fire with fire' when they are in Frankfurt or Brussels, preferring instead to hide behind the curtins or be content to receive a pat on the back or a peck on the cheek from Angela and co.
    I look forward to the next election when FG will experience a similar meltdown to FF and Labour will be consigned to the dustbin of history joining the PDs and the Greens.


    The worry i have is that Fianna Fail will more than likely get back into power :(
    I would like to think that our people are smarter than to be fooled by this 'new Fianna Fail' spin but sadly i know thats not true.

    Were like the fish who have went to the opposite side of the bowl and cant remember what life was like at the other side.


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    #75
    WeNeed Another General Election
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭WeNeed Another General Election


    dickwod1 wrote: »
    I just watched it and im shocked at his responses, His first answer was to stutter and say "I've said previously ..." and read off a sheet of paper a somewhat legal statement referring to numerous names and bodies that made no sense and then his second answer was to verbely attack bully and threaten a member of the dail ... He and the whole Labour party has lost it, Drunk on power.

    i don't care what anybody says but they're on the way out of Irish politics.

    Fine Gael & Labour out!!


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    #76
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    It's just a tired old way that Labour use to duck the question asked.


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    #77
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    OCorcrain wrote: »
    I cannot believe what I just read, I know people who have suffered from domestic abuse and for you to just throw something like that around as a disgusting comparison is abhorrent and moronic.

    You should be ashamed of yourself.

    MOD NOTE:

    If you want to keep posting in this forum, you are going to need to dial back your comments, big time.

    If you have a problem with a post, report it.

    As for the "when did you stop beating your wife", this is a pretty common turn of phrase used to represent the use of a loaded question. Again, if you have a problem with another poster, you should report it instead of arguing on-thread.


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    #78
    endacreav
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭endacreav


    seamus wrote: »
    There was no question asked, as far as I can tell. An allegation was made of sharp corrupt politics. If it's a question, it's at best rhetorical because he's hardly going to turn around and say, "You're right; it was corrupt".

    Correct me if I'm wrong, maybe she did actually ask a question.

    Reilly's involvement in changing this list of centres is definitely something I'd be interested in knowing about. But he's already given a simplistic answer. The opposition need to start asking more detailed questions instead of the same ones over and over.
    Mary lou asked him what he was going to do about ( the info. she got under the foi)


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    #79
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    Just watched Gilmore's rant again on tv. its a new low in Dail debate. can be compared to Bertie's rant a few years ago when he told those people who questioned the 'celtic tiger' to go commit suicide. was totally sickened that day when i heard it on radio as he addressed the CIF conference.
    But Gilmore playing politics on the issue of IRA killings during the troubles takes the biscuit.
    Mark my words, when Labour join the pitiful PDs and the corrupt Greens on the scrapheap, SF will prosper on the back of idiotic rants like today's.

    Also, a very worrying and alarming concern today was the silence of the Ceann Comhairle during Gilmore's rant. If this is Irish democracy,then God help this little island.:mad:


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    #80
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    Is she not asking a question at 22:01 in that rte clip?
    seamus wrote: »
    But she didn't ask a real question. It was an accusation veiled as a question. It was impossible to answer without looking like you're admitting to something. It's the oldest and cheapest trick in the debating book.
    False indignation worthy of the Dail. Its a commonly used example of a loaded question. Don't read into it, there's nothing there.


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    #81
    maccored
    Registered Users Posts: 10,661 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    does nobody find it a bit messed up that gilmore is telling sinn fein to say certain things in public so it could be legally challenged, while he's telling a woman that she, the rest of the sf tds and all sinn fein party members have somehow been burying bodies all around ireland? isnt that making accusations but hiding it behind dail privileges?


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    #82
    take everything
    Registered Users Posts: 9,804 ✭✭✭take everything


    seamus wrote: »
    Got a chance to look at the video there.

    McDonald had a chance to make a proper challenge to the Tainiste's response, but instead she resorted to asking a loaded question, effectively asking, "What are you going to about the corruption in Fine Gael?". Which is up there with, "When did you stop beating your wife?".

    Gilmore could have risen above it, but he lost the rag a bit.

    All a bit childish really.

    McDonald could very easily have pushed the issue and asked a very good and valid question - why did Minister Reilly claim to have no hand in selecting the site, when the site itself was mentioned in his brief for that meeting in April - but instead she went for petty mud-slinging.

    So the style of questioning is more important than getting an answer to the question?
    :confused:


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    #83
    twowheelsonly
    Registered Users Posts: 2,268 ✭✭✭twowheelsonly


    COYW wrote: »
    I watched most of Leaders' questions this morning but I didn't see this bit. SF are trying to take the moral high ground of late during question time, and as bad as things are in this country, we are still well above taking lectures on ethics and morals from the likes of SF. I have no problem with any individual drawing attention to their past. It should be brought up again and again until we, the people of this country, get proper answers. Brushing their past under the carpet might be acceptable in NI, but it is not here.

    My guess is that SF launched into one of their "victim" style rants and Gilmore decided to "fight fire with fire". They rarely ask meaningful questions.

    Gilmore addressed the questions of the other leaders in a reasonably acceptable manner, from what I saw.

    ...But every major Political Party in our Government has a past. Whether it's recent past (SF) or not so recent (FF, FG, Lab) is irrelevant. Indeed the 1920s' is not actually that long ago.
    I want MY Government dealing with issues that are relevant to the here and now, not the past. They however don't seem to want to do this, preferring instead to respond with cheap retorts time and time again. The bad news for them is that SF are scoring all the points regardless of not seeming to have any concrete and viable policies of their own. They have 14% at the moment, it'll be 20% + next time around.
    They rarely ask meaningful questions.

    And when they do they rarely get meaningful answers..
    Deleted User wrote: »

    ...There seems to be no political movement to challenge these elite parties. Sure SF have rose in popularity the last few years but i suppose there will be always big question marks over them...

    ..Same as every other Party really !!
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The worry i have is that Fianna Fail will more than likely get back into power :(
    I would like to think that our people are smarter than to be fooled by this 'new Fianna Fail' spin but sadly i know thats not true.

    Were like the fish who have went to the opposite side of the bowl and cant remember what life was like at the other side.

    Most likely they will but they'll still be depending on a Coalition - But with whom?? PDs' are dead, Greens might as well be, Labour will be joining them as well barring some sort of miracle in the next 12-18 months.
    SF are going to make massive gains countrywide if there's any younger people left in the country to vote. They have no history with them and so far have seen them as the only viable opposition in the Dail.


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    #84
    Jake Rugby Walrus666
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 528 ✭✭✭Jake Rugby Walrus666


    So the style of questioning is more important than getting an answer to the question?


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    #85
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    maccored wrote: »
    Is she not asking a question at 22:01 in that rte clip?
    That question was answered, just not to her liking.
    So the style of questioning is more important than getting an answer to the question?
    The style of questioning begets the answer. Failure to ask straight questions, like Mary Lou did, will lead to a failure to get straight answers.


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    #86
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    OneIdea wrote: »
    Moments ago on RTE Live - Leaders Questions

    QUOTING: Minister Eamon Gilmore


    What an awful stupid thing to say Live on TV...

    EDIT: Its in relation to this post(10) further down this page.

    Watch from 18 minutes http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10096998/ Remark is said at 28 minutes

    Thats Rich coming from a stickie!
    People should read up on what Gilmores "comrades" in the Official IRA got up to on this islandin the not so distant past .


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    #87
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Dancing on the graves of the unfortunate dead to protect the privileged living.

    Disgusting.


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    #88
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    maccored wrote: »
    does nobody find it a bit messed up that gilmore is telling sinn fein to say certain things in public so it could be legally challenged, while he's telling a woman that she, the rest of the sf tds and all sinn fein party members have somehow been burying bodies all around ireland? isnt that making accusations but hiding it behind dail privileges?

    I would agree on the point of Dáil privileges, I think this is used, by all groups, inappropriately and not ultimately in the public interest.

    However whilst we might see posters mention the FG violence of early 20th Century, and the various factions during the Troubles. There is a clear line in the sand which should be drawn between historical and modern.

    Northern Bank Robbery (2004)
    Killing of Robert McCartney (2005)
    Killing of Joeseph Rafferty (2005)
    Martin Ferris, sitting TD, collecting the convicted killers of Gardai Jerry McCabe (2009)
    Conviction of Bernard Dempsey for murder (2006). He was an election activist and worker for Aengus O Snodaigh.
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/sf-man-chief-suspect-in-killing-466619.html
    An interesting quote in that article:
    "Seven of O Snodaigh's other election workers were jailed for IRA membership last November and December after gardai thwarted an attempted lorry hijacking and uncovered an IRA spying ring aimed at Dail members."

    So yes, whilst I agree with the idea that every SF question should not be answered with mud slinging, there is plenty of mud there I am afraid.

    So my only thinking for this is, on one side, is a supposedly inept and bumbling health minister who is accused of mishandling the building of these care centres. On the other side is a party that has had printed links and references to murder, armed robbery, supporting Garda killers, hijacking and spying. Both sides having these links in modern times, not historical, but modern. That's my only thinking. Which one seems a bit better?


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    #89
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    OneIdea wrote: »
    Its in the news already... http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-many-bodies-are-buried-on-this-island-because-of-sinn-fein-gilmore-taunts-mcdonald-in-dail-spat-3332746.html[/QUOTE]


    It is a fair question to ask of Sinn Féin


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    #90
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    twowheelsonly wrote: »
    ...But every major Political Party in our Government has a past. Whether it's recent past (SF) or not so recent (FF, FG, Lab) is irrelevant. Indeed the 1920s' is not actually that long ago.
    I want MY Government dealing with issues that are relevant to the here and now, not the past.

    .

    We all want our Government dealing with issues that are relevant to the here and now, not the past.

    One of the issues relevant to the here and now is providing an answer to people who want to know where their mother is buried. They are not asking about some long-dead distant relative, they are asking about their mother. About time Sinn Fein provided a proper answer.


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    #91
    golfball37
    Registered Users Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭golfball37


    Godge wrote: »
    We all want our Government dealing with issues that are relevant to the here and now, not the past.

    One of the issues relevant to the here and now is providing an answer to people who want to know where their mother is buried. They are not asking about some long-dead distant relative, they are asking about their mother. About time Sinn Fein provided a proper answer.


    Agree - But what about using these victims to deflect a question about corruption? Thats completely disresprectful and diminishes the worthy cause you outline. Eventually it will be a zero sum game whereby sympathy for victims families will be equated with inablility to asnwer a question from SF.

    If for a second you believe Gilmore brought this up out of conscience for the families then I'll have to politely disagree with you.


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