how many bodies...Eamon Gilmore

The Waltzing Consumer

golfball37 wrote: »

Agree - But what about using these victims to deflect a question about corruption? Thats completely disresprectful and diminishes the worthy cause you outline. Eventually it will be a zero sum game whereby sympathy for victims families will be equated with inablility to asnwer a question from SF.

If for a second you believe Gilmore brought this up out of conscience for the families then I'll have to politely disagree with you.

I would politely disagree with you too

What I am getting from all this story is that Mary Lou accused Gilmore of "standing by corruption"
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gilmore-accuses-sf-of-new-low-after-reilly-allegations-578523.html

Now, the fact is, why has Mary Lou not stood outside the gates and repeated her claims if she has the evidence as suggested?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1220/breaking28.html

If she has this evidence, I would definitely want to hear and be brought to the Gardai's attention, so why not? I support this Government but not a chance in hell that I would not want such "evidence" of corruption handed over to the Gardai and made public.

SF have done this before and lost.
Example: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0308/finance-business.html
Making claims in the Dáil but deafeningly silent outside it where they are liable.

I think Gilmore's reaction is fairly human though. Come on, how would you any person react if they were accused of standing by corruption by a politician who's party in her political life have been associated with murder, armed robbery, support of Garda killers, spying and many of its activists arrested and jailed for illegal activities. Come on It is taking the pi** completely however you feel about FG/Lab/SF/FF/ULA

juan.kerr

OneIdea wrote: »

Minister Mary McDonald

Have I missed something, or are these clowns in power now or something?

baalthor

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I think Gilmore's reaction is fairly human though. Come on, how would you any person react if they were accused of standing by corruption by a politician who's party in her political life have been associated with murder, armed robbery, support of Garda killers, spying and many of its activists arrested and jailed for illegal activities. Come on It is taking the pi** completely however you feel about FG/Lab/SF/FF/ULA

It's also "fairly human" for people to accuse Gilmore of hypocrisy given that he spent much of political career in a party associated with most of the things you mentioned above.

FTA69

Yet again people seem determined to miss the point that Gilmore's activities were funded via armed robbery and many of his senior party members today were involved in various killings and other activities associated with the "Official IRA". Him thus bringing up Sinn Féin's record in the past is hypocrisy and there's no two ways about it.

Also the early-1990s was not a "historical" period for those trying to weasel their way out of acknowledging the fact that Gilmore and his band of merry men were up to all sorts of carry on.

dvpower

FTA69 wrote: »

Yet again people seem determined to miss the point that Gilmore's activities were funded via armed robbery and many of his senior party members today were involved in various killings and other activities associated with the "Official IRA". Him thus bringing up Sinn Féin's record in the past is hypocrisy and there's no two ways about it.

Also the early-1990s was not a "historical" period for those trying to weasel their way out of acknowledging the fact that Gilmore and his band of merry men were up to all sorts of carry on.

What are their names, what killings and what exactly was their involvement?

FTA69

dvpower wrote: »

What are their names, what killings and what exactly was their involvement?

Look up Larry White.

FTA69

Also while you're at it look up Group B and read the Lost Revolution.

dvpower

FTA69 wrote: »

Look up Larry White.

Did I get the right Larry White?

In June 2011, Kathleen Lynch caused controversy when she appointed her husband, Bernard, to the role as personal assistant, which is a taxpayer-funded role.[7] The Mail on Sunday then reported that Bernard Lynch had been convicted of the murder of Larry White in Cork in 1975, and that the conviction had been overturned by the appeals court when a statement was ruled inadmissible because the legal period of detention had elapsed when the statement was taken

Now, let me remind you of your allegation.

[...]many of his senior party members today were involved in various killings [...]

And when queried you give me the spouse of a Junior Minister, whose conviction was overturned.
You should really withdraw your claim now. It appears to have no substance.

Shea O'Meara

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

I would politely disagree with you too

What I am getting from all this story is that Mary Lou accused Gilmore of "standing by corruption"
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gilmore-accuses-sf-of-new-low-after-reilly-allegations-578523.html

Now, the fact is, why has Mary Lou not stood outside the gates and repeated her claims if she has the evidence as suggested?
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1220/breaking28.html

If she has this evidence, I would definitely want to hear and be brought to the Gardai's attention, so why not? I support this Government but not a chance in hell that I would not want such "evidence" of corruption handed over to the Gardai and made public.

SF have done this before and lost.
Example: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0308/finance-business.html
Making claims in the Dáil but deafeningly silent outside it where they are liable.

I think Gilmore's reaction is fairly human though. Come on, how would you any person react if they were accused of standing by corruption by a politician who's party in her political life have been associated with murder, armed robbery, support of Garda killers, spying and many of its activists arrested and jailed for illegal activities. Come on It is taking the pi** completely however you feel about FG/Lab/SF/FF/ULA

So questions can't be asked until the proof is presented? Isn't that completely backwards to any investigative process?

So two wrongs cancel each other out and the Irish people remain politically stagnant?
Gilmore should apologise to the Irish people for not addressing a topic and using the deaths of others to deflect from the issue like a schoolyard brat. His responce was basically, 'I know you are, but what am I'.

It's of no matter what Sinn Fein did/are doing in this regard. If Gilmore deems Sinn Fein unfit to ask questions or in that vein be answered even though they are democratically elected to do so, he should leave government or try over-throw, (if to be honest to himself with some new center left/Conservative hybrid party) the system if he no longer wishes to honour either it or the Irish people and their elected representatives.

Another way to look at it, using your logic; Gilmore is saying, 'You're as bad as me'?

FTA69

The spouse in question is a prominent member of the Labour Party in Cork, and Kathleen Lynch is probably the most senior Labour Party member in the third biggest city in the country. That's the activities of one family, considering the whole of Democratic Left basically propelled themselves into the senior echelons of Labour you can be sure that many of them have a past of some sort.

Similarly, the entire Workers' Party was funded by Group B blagging banks left, right and centre so at the very least McManus, Gilmore, Rabbitte and De Rossa were running campaigns with money gleaned from armed robberies. In other words, they've no right to criticise anyone over clandestine armed activities. While they were members of the Sticks the Officials also killed Séamus Costello in Dublin as well as a number of other Republicans.

dvpower

FTA69 wrote: »

The spouse in question is a prominent member of the Labour Party in Cork, and Kathleen Lynch is probably the most senior Labour Party member in the third biggest city in the country.

Are you saying that Kathleen Lynch was involved in the killing?

FTA69 wrote: »

That's the activities of one family, considering the whole of Democratic Left basically propelled themselves into the senior echelons of Labour you can be sure that many of them have a past of some sort.

You made a very serious allegation that "many of his senior party members today were involved in various killings" and now all you have is the name of the spouse of a party member, whose conviction was overturned.

You are a disgrace.

WeNeed Another General Election

FTA69 wrote: »

Yet again people seem determined to miss the point that Gilmore's activities were funded via armed robbery and many of his senior party members today were involved in various killings and other activities associated with the "Official IRA". Him thus bringing up Sinn Féin's record in the past is hypocrisy and there's no two ways about it.

Also the early-1990s was not a "historical" period for those trying to weasel their way out of acknowledging the fact that Gilmore and his band of merry men were up to all sorts of carry on.

denial is not just a river in egypt mon ami

FTA69

dvpower wrote: »

Are you saying that Kathleen Lynch was involved in the killing?

No I'm saying her husband was, and that she appointed him to a taxpayer-funded position. His brother was also wanted for counterfeiting money, another Sticky staple fundraiser.

You made a very serious allegation that "many of his senior party members today were involved in various killings"

Yep. Many of his collegaues were involved in Official IRA activity. And he himself funded much of his activity from the proceeds of bank robberies and counterfeit currency operations. This is a well documented fact by the way. Gimore was in the Workers' Party, as were his senior colleagues Lynch, McManus, Rabbitte and De Rossa. The Workers' Party was funded by the Official IRA. The Official IRA killed White, Costello and other people over the years. Are you seriously trying to deny that there was a connection like?

and now all you have is the name of the spouse of a party member, whose conviction was overturned.

Yeah, and Gerry was never in the Ra.

You are a disgrace.

Answer the question, were the Workers' Party connected to the Official IRA or not?

dvpower

FTA69 wrote: »

No I'm saying her husband was, and that she appointed him to a taxpayer-funded position. His brother was also wanted for counterfeiting money, another Sticky staple fundraiser.

So she wasn't one of the 'senior party members' that you referred to as being involved in 'various killings'. Maybe you can now give me the names of those who were.

FTA69 wrote: »

Answer the question, were the Workers' Party connected to the Official IRA or not?

Of course they were. I never disputed that.

I dispute this:

FTA69 wrote: »

[...] many of his senior party members today were involved in various killings and other activities associated with the "Official IRA".

So now that you accept that Kathleen Lynch wasn't involved in the killing of Larry White, can you name some of the 'senior party members' and the 'various killings' that you say they were involved in?

FTA69

can you name some of the 'senior party members' and the 'various killings' that you say they were involved in?

Bernard Lynch is a senior and influential member of the Labour Party in Cork City. Fact. That's why he was given a paid backroom position. The fact he isn't a representative doesn't change that. In Sinn Féin for instance, and other parties for that matter, many of the most influential figures in that party are people you never would have heard of. The reason Bernard wasn't put forward as a public face of the party is because they didn't want the hassle of his escapades coming out.

Believe it or not, one man in Cork is not the only person who migrated from the Official IRA to Democratic Left to Labour. There are also people based in Dublin and other places in Ireland who would have at one stage or another been involved with an organisation involved in numerous robberies and a number of prominent killings.

Of course they were. I never disputed that.

So you agree that Gilmore is thus a hypocrite because he himself was associated with an armed group at one stage?

dvpower

FTA69 wrote: »

Bernard Lynch is a senior and influential member of the Labour Party in Cork City. Fact.

What exactly is Bernard Lynch's current senior position in the Labour party?

While you're at it, who are the others? (your allegation was of multiple senior party members being involved in multiple killings).
Can you put a number on the senior party members who were involved in killings?

GRMA

FTA69 wrote: »

Bernard Lynch is a senior and influential member of the Labour Party in Cork City. Fact. That's why he was given a paid backroom position. The fact he isn't a representative doesn't change that. In Sinn Féin for instance, and other parties for that matter, many of the most influential figures in that party are people you never would have heard of. The reason Bernard wasn't put forward as a public face of the party is because they didn't want the hassle of his escapades coming out.

Believe it or not, one man in Cork is not the only person who migrated from the Official IRA to Democratic Left to Labour. There are also people based in Dublin and other places in Ireland who would have at one stage or another been involved with an organisation involved in numerous robberies and a number of prominent killings.



So you agree that Gilmore is thus a hypocrite because he himself was associated with an armed group at one stage?

Have you read the lost revolution? You should.

OIRA was still active and meeting in the 1990s.

Although Workers party heads may not have been directly involved in OIRA activities.... like Gerry Adams and the provos

FTA69

dvpower wrote: »

What exactly is Bernard Lynch's current senior position in the Labour party?

I know he was involved in backroom strategy work within the Labour Party in Cork City; he now works out of Leinster House and is still involved locally I believe.

While you're at it, who are the others? (your allegation was of multiple senior party members being involved in multiple killings).
Can you put a number on the senior party members who were involved in killings?

As I said, if you think Bernard Lynch was the only person in Labour directly involved with the Official IRA you're codding yourself. The whole top tier of Labour were at some stage involved with the Official IRA who were up to their necks in robberies and high-profile killings. They've just appointed one of them to a Leinster House position.

So you agree that Gilmore is thus a hypocrite because he himself was associated with an armed group at one stage?

I take it you agree with this question then so?

FTA69

GRMA wrote: »

Have you read the lost revolution? You should.

I was at a launch of the book sure. It's a great read. Some other people could do with reading it.

GRMA

FTA69 wrote: »

I was at a launch of the book sure. It's a great read. Some other people could do with reading it.

Sorry I meant to quote the other lad

OneIdea

juan.kerr wrote: »

Have I missed something, or are these clowns in power now or something?

Opps my bad... Deputy

dvpower

GRMA wrote: »

Have you read the lost revolution? You should.

OIRA was still active and meeting in the 1990s.

Although Workers party heads may not have been directly involved in OIRA activities.... like Gerry Adams and the provos

I haven't but I might just pick it up, thanks. I don't doubt the activities of the Official IRA or their links with The Workers Party.
I'm not even argueing that Gilmore isn't a hypocrite - I couldn't say with confidence one way or the other.

I am argueing about quite specific claims that many senior people in the Labour party now have been involved in multiple killings. I'm looking for the list, but all I'm getting is guilt by association and generalities.

newman10

dvpower wrote: »

I haven't but I might just pick it up, thanks. I don't doubt the activities of the Official IRA or their links with The Workers Party.
I'm not even argueing that Gilmore isn't a hypocrite - I couldn't say with confidence one way or the other.

I am argueing about quite specific claims that many senior people in the Labour party now have been involved in multiple killings. I'm looking for the list, but all I'm getting is guilt by association and generalities.

Same as saying all Sinn Fein TDs buried bodies

twowheelsonly

twowheelsonly wrote: »

...But every major Political Party in our Government has a past. Whether it's recent past (SF) or not so recent (FF, FG, Lab) is irrelevant. Indeed the 1920s' is not actually that long ago.
I want MY Government dealing with issues that are relevant to the here and now, not the past. They however don't seem to want to do this, preferring instead to respond with cheap retorts time and time again. The bad news for them is that SF are scoring all the points regardless of not seeming to have any concrete and viable policies of their own. They have 14% at the moment, it'll be 20% + next time around.



And when they do they rarely get meaningful answers..



..Same as every other Party really !!



Most likely they will but they'll still be depending on a Coalition - But with whom?? PDs' are dead, Greens might as well be, Labour will be joining them as well barring some sort of miracle in the next 12-18 months.
SF are going to make massive gains countrywide if there's any younger people left in the country to vote. They have no history with them and so far have seen them as the only viable opposition in the Dail.

I don't doubt Sinn Féin are getting very strong as a party and truth be known FG and Labour are getting very restless on their perch. I think the real reason McGuinness ran for president was to examine where exactly the demographic of SF voters are in Ireland.

The 3 strongest parties next election could be FF, FG and SF with the ULA gaining a bit more ground which would make things very interesting indeed. Certainly wont be any majority parties in power.

Stabshauptmann

super_furry wrote: »

It's a valid question.

But not a valid retort to a legitimate question posed by an elected TD re: corruption at the highest level of government.

To be perfectly honest I am sick of TDs dismissing any question put to them by SF with a glib IRA sound bite.
A) It shows the ineptitude of the politician that they cant respond and must rely on practiced one liners.
It shows how untenable their position must be that they cant answer a straight question

dvpower

newman10 wrote: »

Same as saying all Sinn Fein TDs buried bodies

How so?

Stabshauptmann

COYW wrote: »

I have no problem with any individual drawing attention to their past. It should be brought up again and again until we, the people of this country, get proper answers.

We do have "proper" answers. You may not like them, though.

At the end of the day, we all wanted an end to violence and for republicans to engage in peaceful politics only. Now they are here, in the Dail and in Stormont - and a very sizable representation too.

Xantia

OneIdea wrote: »

Moments ago on RTE Live - Leaders Questions

QUOTING: Minister Eamon Gilmore


What an awful stupid thing to say Live on TV...

EDIT: Its in relation to this post(10) further down this page.

Watch from 18 minutes http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10096998/ Remark is said at 28 minutes

The following is NOT my work, it is a quote from politics.ie but it is so relevant here.

Looking through this thread I felt utter despair at our appalling political class,
or total lack of it, here in Ireland.

Because of the past of Sinn Fein all the government shower have to do is shriek at them about their past,
bedlam ensues, end of debate.

Fianna Fail raise a matter of import, and they are shrieked at by government for their past debacles,
bedlam ensues, end of debate.

Clare Daly, now an Independant raises a matter, and the government shrieks at her for defending a tax evader,Mick Wallace,
bedlam ensues, end of debate.

We have a Ceann Comhairle who is completely embarrassing he is so inept.
He cannot control the Chamber and so bedlam ensues at every Question Time, and no answers are actuall received, because;

The Government have no answers to give. Why?
Because the Government is not run by the Government.
It is run by a 3/4 Ministers and the favoured "advisers" whom we never elected,
which is bad enough,
but even parliamentarians are unaware of what has been decided until they are corralled and told how to vote
and the party whip is sacrosanct.

And I have not even mentioned the input of the European Parliament.

This is not democracy in action.
This is a bloody farce and every single T.D. who is playing along with this debacle is betraying us and our country.
And what do we do? What can we do?
It is my opinion that every single voter in Ireland has been betrayed by those we elected.
And why do I say this? Because these people are not representing us.
They are representing nothing but their own ambition, be it personal, political,
or a genuine determination to grow their own party, not the country, never the country,
but what they imagine is the real world which exists only in Kildare House,
whilst those of us in the real world reel from one shock to the next.

We have no government. We have no leaders. We have a tiny cartel of monied people who rule us.
We have a police force that is obviously falling apart and apparently rife with corruption,
and who amazingly has a commissioner who applauds the closure of hundreds of Garda stations.
We have people who have defrauded us out of billions but who are once again arrested by appointment
and released on bail of €1,000, passport not removed, and please sir,
let the Gardai have 2 days notice if you intend going abroad!

It's a great big bloody disaster.
But sure Christmas is nearly upon us, and the great and the good will disappear for several weeks,
giving them time to let us peasants cry into our gruel as the budget hits,
but foolishly distracted by the very useful Abortion controversy which was timed brilliantly by our erstwhile enemy,
the politician.

Godge

newman10 wrote: »

Same as saying all Sinn Fein TDs buried bodies

Maybe if Sinn Fein provided us with the information on

(1) where the bodies are buried
(2) who put the bodies there and
(3) who killed them beforehand

then we wouldn't need to be pointing the fingers in the general direction.

maccored

Godge wrote: »

Maybe if Sinn Fein provided us with the information on

(1) where the bodies are buried
(2) who put the bodies there and
(3) who killed them beforehand

then we wouldn't need to be pointing the fingers in the general direction.

How is that meant to work? Lets ignore the simple fact SF didnt kill anyone, and instead jump to theconclusion you actually mean the IRA - how would there be records of this information?

Do you actually think for a minute that a secret, proscribed organisation would keep paper trails of who done what and bodies where buried?

If they didn't (which logically you would assume they wouldnt have), then who exactly would have the information to answer your questions?

Alternatively, do you believe theres people in SF who know every ever active IRA member and a list of the things they done? I just dont understand how you would expect anyone in SF to be in a position to answer those questions.